IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

Kermos said:

You are trying to deceive, CharismaticLady, and here is the proof.

You claim that you chose Jesus, but Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and here are five independent scriptural avenues that all arrive at the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and this Word of God refers to all believers in all time (post in this thread); therefore, you are calling the Word of God ridiculous.

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I'm calling Calvinism ridiculous. When man follows man instead of the Word of God there is always error.

CharismaticLady said:

From what I understand about John Calvin, he didn't believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit. Do you know whether or not he was the father of the false doctrine of Cessationism, because I don't know of any Calvinist that isn't a Cessationist?

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Calvin was also a murderer, killing those who disagreed with him.

Francis Drake said:

Calvin was also a murderer, killing those who disagreed with him.

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Isn't it strange who some people choose to follow.

CharismaticLady said:

Your doctrine doesn't tell us how to be saved, but that even if you accept Jesus, unless God has already chosen you, you are still damned, because Jesus didn't die for you. Ridiculous

I can hear His voice, but that is because I repented and Jesus filled me with His powerful Spirit. And the Spirit gave me many gifts, including a way to know God's will and have all my prayers answered.

From what I understand about John Calvin, he didn't believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit. Do you know whether or not he was the father of the false doctrine of Cessationism, because I don't know of any Calvinist that isn't a Cessationist?

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In your post #208 you wrote "Just remember, especially when siting verses about no one can snatch them out of His hand, that when you see the words 'You have given Me' Jesus is only referring to His apostles".

In your post #301 you wrote "I only want the truth, and seeing who Jesus is talking about is one thing I need to see, so I don't make the same sad mistake that those who apply OSAS to themselves", and for clarification it is my understanding that OSAS is an acronym for once saved always saved.

And, in your post #375 you wrote "I can hear His voice".

Lord Jesus says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand" (John 10:27-29).

You try to nullify these words "no one will snatch them out of My hand" in your post #208.

You also try to nullify these words "no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand" in your post #301.

You then try to apply "My sheep hear My voice" to yourself (your post #375)

See, the contradiction as you try to illegitimately separate Jesus the Christ's words.

You engage in deceit, CharismaticLady, so you do not understand the Word of God.

CharismaticLady said:

I'm calling Calvinism ridiculous. When man follows man instead of the Word of God there is always error.

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You are trying to deceive, CharismaticLady, and here is the proof.

You claim that you chose Jesus, but Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and here are five independent scriptural avenues that all arrive at the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:14); therefore, you are calling the Word of God ridiculous.

Francis Drake said:

Calvin was also a murderer, killing those who disagreed with him.

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The guy's name was Michael Servetus of whom the collusion to which you refer.

CharismaticLady said:

Isn't it strange who some people choose to follow.

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It is strange, and both of you follow yourselves, because in your imaginations you make yourselves out to be superior to the apostles in your purported choice to salvation.

Lord Jesus declared His exclusive role in choosing unto salvation when He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Lord Jesus' words apply to all believers in all time as a result of these words of His "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

Behold "through their word" includes the words of Jesus that the Apostle John recorded of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Kermos said:

In your post #208 you wrote "Just remember, especially when siting verses about no one can snatch them out of His hand, that when you see the words 'You have given Me' Jesus is only referring to His apostles".

In your post #301 you wrote "I only want the truth, and seeing who Jesus is talking about is one thing I need to see, so I don't make the same sad mistake that those who apply OSAS to themselves", and for clarification it is my understanding that OSAS is an acronym for once saved always saved.

And, in your post #375 you wrote "I can hear His voice".

Lord Jesus says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand" (John 10:27-29).

You try to nullify these words "no one will snatch them out of My hand" in your post #208.

You also try to nullify these words "no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand" in your post #301.

You then try to apply "My sheep hear My voice" to yourself (your post #375)

See, the contradiction as you try to illegitimately separate Jesus the Christ's words.

You engage in deceit, CharismaticLady, so you do not understand the Word of God.

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I said when the words "you gave me" are in the passage, that refers to the apostles.

Kermos said:

You are trying to deceive, CharismaticLady, and here is the proof.

You claim that you chose Jesus, but Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and here are five independent scriptural avenues that all arrive at the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:14); therefore, you are calling the Word of God ridiculous.



The guy's name was Michael Servetus of whom the collusion to which you refer.



It is strange, and both of you follow yourselves, because in your imaginations you make yourselves out to be superior to the apostles in your purported choice to salvation.

Lord Jesus declared His exclusive role in choosing unto salvation when He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Lord Jesus' words apply to all believers in all time as a result of these words of His "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

Behold "through their word" includes the words of Jesus that the Apostle John recorded of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

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So how do you know God chose you, personally? Maybe you are believing in vain. Maybe Jesus didn't die for you. Isn't that what you believe? That if you are not one of the chosen, then Jesus will say to you, "I never knew you, you workers of iniquity." But that if you are one of the chosen, no sin or iniquity can separate you from God.

CharismaticLady said:

I said when the words "you gave me" are in the passage, that refers to the apostles.

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That changes nothing, CharismaticLady. You attempt to selectively exclude portions of the Word of God all believers in all time from the passage at hand.

In your post #208 you wrote "Just remember, especially when siting verses about no one can snatch them out of His hand, that when you see the words 'You have given Me' Jesus is only referring to His apostles".

In your post #301 you wrote "I only want the truth, and seeing who Jesus is talking about is one thing I need to see, so I don't make the same sad mistake that those who apply OSAS to themselves", and for clarification it is my understanding that OSAS is an acronym for once saved always saved.

And, in your post #375 you wrote "I can hear His voice".

Lord Jesus says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand" (John 10:27-29).

You try to nullify these words "no one will snatch them out of My hand" in your post #208.

You also try to nullify these words "no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand" in your post #301.

You then try to apply "My sheep hear My voice" to yourself (your post #375)

See, the contradiction as you try to illegitimately separate Jesus the Christ's words.

Since you deny Lord Jesus' words of "no one will snatch them out of My hand" then by extension you are not one of His sheep.

You engage in deceit, CharismaticLady. You do not understand the Word of God.

CharismaticLady said:

So how do you know God chose you, personally?

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His voice (John 10:27-29).

Fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-26)

Maybe you are believing in vain. Maybe Jesus didn't die for you. Isn't that what you believe?

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Nope.

That if you are not one of the chosen, then Jesus will say to you, "I never knew you, you workers of iniquity." But that if you are one of the chosen, no sin or iniquity can separate you from God.

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It appears you really, really, really want to put words in my mouth. Your writings are yours.

You claim to be able to choose Jesus, despite you being confronted by the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), with you persisting in your claim of being able to choose Jesus thereafter, with you claiming the Word of God applies only to the apostles, by extension YOU CLAIM TO BE SUPERIOR TO THE APOSTLES.

Kermos said:

That changes nothing, CharismaticLady. You attempt to selectively exclude portions of the Word of God all believers in all time from the passage at hand.

In your post #208 you wrote "Just remember, especially when siting verses about no one can snatch them out of His hand, that when you see the words 'You have given Me' Jesus is only referring to His apostles".

In your post #301 you wrote "I only want the truth, and seeing who Jesus is talking about is one thing I need to see, so I don't make the same sad mistake that those who apply OSAS to themselves", and for clarification it is my understanding that OSAS is an acronym for once saved always saved.

And, in your post #375 you wrote "I can hear His voice".

Lord Jesus says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand" (John 10:27-29).

You try to nullify these words "no one will snatch them out of My hand" in your post #208.

You also try to nullify these words "no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand" in your post #301.

You then try to apply "My sheep hear My voice" to yourself (your post #375)

See, the contradiction as you try to illegitimately separate Jesus the Christ's words.

Since you deny Lord Jesus' words of "no one will snatch them out of My hand" then by extension you are not one of His sheep.

You engage in deceit, CharismaticLady. You do not understand the Word of God.

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I compared the verses that Jesus was praying for His apostles against when He was praying for those who would believe their word. The difference was "you gave me."

Kermos said:

His voice (John 10:27-29).

Fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-26)



Nope.



It appears you really, really, really want to put words in my mouth. Your writings are yours.

You claim to be able to choose Jesus, despite you being confronted by the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), with you persisting in your claim of being able to choose Jesus thereafter, with you claiming the Word of God applies only to the apostles, by extension YOU CLAIM TO BE SUPERIOR TO THE APOSTLES.

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You are being combative and rude.

Kermos said:

You write "self righteousness" about me who proclaims that salvation of men is exclusively the dominion of God and I point to the glory of God; on the other hand, you glory in your claimed choice of God that you have purchased your own salvation by your work of a choice for you say that without your choice you would not have salvation.

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I've never claimed to purchase my own salvation so you can cut that lie right out.
I am merely a sinner redeemed by the blood of Christ, and I have never said or believed any different.

Righteous is God.

Unrighteous is the self-willed person.

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If choosing to follow the Lord is a sin, then yes, I'm guilty of that choice.

But maybe you need to think on the principle behind these verses from both OT and NT.
Prov3v34 Surely He scorns the scornful, But gives grace to the humble.

James4v6 But He gives greater grace. Therefore it says: “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

1Pet5v5 Likewise, younger ones, be subject to your elders. And all, gird on humility one to another, because, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
6Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time,
It says, "humble yourself" which means you've got to do it, nobody can do it for you, not even God! Until you make that choice, God opposes you.

Why do you think there are so many instructions in scripture to "Humble yourself", if God makes that choice it for us?

Here's someone who chose not to humble himself.
Dan5v22“But you his son, Belshazzar, have not humbled your heart, although you knew all this. 23And you have lifted yourself up against the Lord of heaven.
Take note, it was entirely his choice, not God's.

Here's one who chose to humble himself.-
2Chron34v7 because your heart was tender, and you humbled yourself before God when you heard His words against this place and against its inhabitants, and you humbled yourself before Me, and you tore your clothes and wept before Me, I also have heard you,” says the LORD.
It is always man's own choice whether to humble himself or remain proud. No scripture shows God taking that choice for us.

You try to steal the glory of God with your work of a choice, so that is unrighteousness.

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There's nowhere in scripture that says that "believing God" is a work. Belief is a choice that produces the righteousness of God in us, as Abraham found.
Gal3v5Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe? 6So also “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness 7Understand, then, that those who have faith are the sons of Abraham.…
I did what Abraham did, chose to believe what God said, and became a son of Abraham.
Or do you deny me that right also?.

Francis Drake "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter" (Isaiah 5:20).

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I would be very wary making all these accusations my friend, they have a habit of coming around and biting you in the butt.

I point at the glory of God, and you call that "self righteousness" - an unscriptural term.

You call what is good evil.

Lord Jesus says "The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness" (Matthew 6:22-23).

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Again, watch what you do with all these accusations against me. It doesn't worry me because I know the God who loves me.

Francis Drake said:

Calvin was also a murderer, killing those who disagreed with him.

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So his doctrine became his alibi, his defense?

timothyu said:

So his doctrine became his alibi, his defense?

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Not sure what you mean.
Calvin ended up in high places and used that to see those opposed to him executed.
Hardly a Christian attitude.

Francis Drake said:

Not sure what you mean.
Calvin ended up in high places and used that to see those opposed to him executed.
Hardly a Christian attitude.

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So what better way to justify his deeds than by saying God pre-ordained them? Would that hold up in court today?

CharismaticLady said:

I compared the verses that Jesus was praying for His apostles against when He was praying for those who would believe their word. The difference was "you gave me."

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Again, that changes nothing, CharismaticLady. You attempt to selectively exclude portions of the Word of God all believers in all time from the passage at hand.

SINCE you deny Jesus' words of "no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28) applies to all believers in all time

THEN if follows that you also deny the words of Jesus in "My sheep hear My voice" (John 10:27) on which the "no one" in John 10:28 depends

THEREFORE you deny being one of Jesus' sheep, so your claim of hearing Jesus' voice is a contradiction embedded in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

HERE is the background for basis of your denial.

In your post #208 you wrote "Just remember, especially when siting verses about no one can snatch them out of His hand, that when you see the words 'You have given Me' Jesus is only referring to His apostles".

In your post #301 you wrote "I only want the truth, and seeing who Jesus is talking about is one thing I need to see, so I don't make the same sad mistake that those who apply OSAS to themselves", and for clarification it is my understanding that OSAS is an acronym for once saved always saved.

And, in your post #375 you wrote "I can hear His voice".

Lord Jesus says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand" (John 10:27-29).

You try to nullify these words "no one will snatch them out of My hand" in your post #208.

You also try to nullify these words "no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand" in your post #301.

You then try to apply "My sheep hear My voice" to yourself (your post #375)

See, the contradiction as you try to illegitimately separate Jesus the Christ's words.

Since you deny Lord Jesus' words of "no one will snatch them out of My hand" then by extension you are not one of His sheep.

You engage in deceit, CharismaticLady. You do not understand the Word of God.

Francis Drake said:

I've never claimed to purchase my own salvation so you can cut that lie right out.
I am merely a sinner redeemed by the blood of Christ, and I have never said or believed any different.

If choosing to follow the Lord is a sin, then yes, I'm guilty of that choice.

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No, in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you defy the words of Christ Jesus "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

More on addressing your claim of you purchasing your salvation below.

But maybe you need to think on the principle behind these verses from both OT and NT.
Prov3v34 Surely He scorns the scornful, But gives grace to the humble.

James4v6 But He gives greater grace. Therefore it says: “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

1Pet5v5 Likewise, younger ones, be subject to your elders. And all, gird on humility one to another, because, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
6Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time,
It says, "humble yourself" which means you've got to do it, nobody can do it for you, not even God! Until you make that choice, God opposes you.

Why do you think there are so many instructions in scripture to "Humble yourself", if God makes that choice it for us?

Here's someone who chose not to humble himself.
Dan5v22“But you his son, Belshazzar, have not humbled your heart, although you knew all this. 23And you have lifted yourself up against the Lord of heaven.
Take note, it was entirely his choice, not God's.

Here's one who chose to humble himself.-
2Chron34v7 because your heart was tender, and you humbled yourself before God when you heard His words against this place and against its inhabitants, and you humbled yourself before Me, and you tore your clothes and wept before Me, I also have heard you,” says the LORD.
It is always man's own choice whether to humble himself or remain proud. No scripture shows God taking that choice for us.

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All those references to "humble" actions of King Josiah in 2 Chronicles 34:27 do not include "choice" neither explicitly nor implicitly.

Respecting Belshazzar, one must not forget about the first nature (post in this thread).

Apparently, you have not examined the Greek of 1 Peter 5:6 which contains the command "Be humbled therefore under the mighty hand of God" (1 Peter 5:6 Interlinear: be humbled, then, under the powerful hand of God, that you He may exalt in good time,). That is a command, and Lord Jesus said "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

In your pride, in your arrogance, you wrote that you chose Jesus despite the Word of God saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

There it is, right there, scripture of God applying God's choice for us believers; on the other hand, there is NO New Testament scripture that states man chooses God.

I remind you of the Word of God again "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48) and the Father "He has given all judgment to the Son" (John 5:22).

There's nowhere in scripture that says that "believing God" is a work. Belief is a choice that produces the righteousness of God in us, as Abraham found.

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The Word of God says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Because of your claimed work of a choice toward God, there is where you claim to purchase salvation.

You are dead wrong in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Gal3v5Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe? 6So also “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness 7Understand, then, that those who have faith are the sons of Abraham.…
I did what Abraham did, chose to believe what God said, and became a son of Abraham.
Or do you deny me that right also?.

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No place in scripture does it state that Abraham chose to believe, you are adding to scripture for which such action it is written "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Francis Drake, in fact, the work of God is required for a person to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29) - thus there is God defining faith/Belief in a person. No mention of choice by the mere mortal.

I would be very wary making all these accusations my friend, they have a habit of coming around and biting you in the butt.

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Your assertions have been proven to be unrighteous (2 Peter 2:9-10).

In your daring self will you claim to choose Jesus which opposes Lord Jesus' very words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) which includes salvation for in the same discourse Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Again, watch what you do with all these accusations against me. It doesn't worry me because I know the God who loves me.

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You chose a false god.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death." (John 8:51)

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15)

"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 10:33)

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48)

Lord Jesus says keep his word, but self will people who claim free will to choose Jesus add to Jesus' words, so those free-willians reject Jesus and do not receive His sayings, so the word Jesus spoke is what will judge them at the last day.

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Francis Drake said:

Not sure what you mean.
Calvin ended up in high places and used that to see those opposed to him executed.
Hardly a Christian attitude.

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You are quite focused on a dead man.

JESUS IS ALIVE! QUOTE HIM ACCURATELY!

@Francis Drake and @CharismaticLady and @BNR32FAN

Since each of you deny that the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) applies to you

AND you deny the "you" in "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) applies to you

THEN the "you" in "You are My friends" (John 15:14) which Lord Jesus spoke just prior to John 15:16-19 cannot not apply to you

THEREFORE, by your own admission none of you are friends of Jesus.

@Kermos

2 Timothy 2:
14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.