Is genocide ever justified?

JohnClay

Married Mouth-Breather
Supporter
Oct 27, 2006
1,129
186
Australia
Visit site
✟443,619.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Deuteronomy 20:16-18

However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.
I think that could be called "genocide". If you are the Christian do you think this example of genocide is moral? My opinion is that this command is a test - a bit like the test that Abraham was given...
 

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,459
8,968
Florida
✟321,876.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Deuteronomy 20:16-18

However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.
I think that could be called "genocide". If you are the Christian do you think this example of genocide is moral? My opinion is that this command is a test - a bit like the test that Abraham was given...

It's not a "test". God told the Israelites to go to war against them.
 
Upvote 0

Occams Barber

Newbie
Supporter
Aug 8, 2012
6,287
7,421
75
Northern NSW
✟981,569.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Divorced
Are you putting God on trial?
He's asking a reasonable question:
Is genocide ever justified?
and using Gods directions in the OT as an example.

The question is quite valid. Why not try to answer it?
OB
 
Upvote 0

JohnClay

Married Mouth-Breather
Supporter
Oct 27, 2006
1,129
186
Australia
Visit site
✟443,619.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
It's not a "test". God told the Israelites to go to war against them.
It's more than going to war.... I think it could be called "genocide" - the command was to kill everything that breathes.... (including animals)
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,459
8,968
Florida
✟321,876.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
It's more than going to war.... I think it could be called "genocide" - the command was to kill everything that breathes.... (including animals)

That is war.

Had those nations gone to war against Israel they would have done the same. The old testament is filled with warfare and the horrors of it. It's not limited to only one side.
 
Upvote 0

JohnClay

Married Mouth-Breather
Supporter
Oct 27, 2006
1,129
186
Australia
Visit site
✟443,619.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
That is war.
Actually this is how the nations they were at war against were usually treated:

Deuteronomy 20:10-15

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
The genocide only involved certain nations.

Had those nations gone to war against Israel they would have done the same. The old testament is filled with warfare and the horrors of it. It's not limited to only one side.

Actually the nations that conquered Israel didn't kill "everything that breathes".... they often took them into slavery, etc.
 
Upvote 0

Occams Barber

Newbie
Supporter
Aug 8, 2012
6,287
7,421
75
Northern NSW
✟981,569.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Divorced
That is war.

Had those nations gone to war against Israel they would have done the same. The old testament is filled with warfare and the horrors of it. It's not limited to only one side.
This is God we're talking about here.

Isn't God quite capable of preventing genocide (by either side). He chose not to.

The obvious conclusion is that when God chose to do nothing to prevent genocide He actually encouraged it.

Therefore He approved.
OB
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Ophiolite
Upvote 0

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
38,978
9,399
✟378,031.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Deuteronomy 20:16-18

However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.
I think that could be called "genocide". If you are the Christian do you think this example of genocide is moral? My opinion is that this command is a test - a bit like the test that Abraham was given...
Because God is the sole giver of life, and the sole giver of rights, only when he orders it. Outside of specific instances in the Bible like this one, he never ordered it, as he forbids it as a general rule. Hence, every other genocide, whether committed by Christians or any other group, was vile and wrong.
 
Upvote 0

JohnClay

Married Mouth-Breather
Supporter
Oct 27, 2006
1,129
186
Australia
Visit site
✟443,619.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
This is God we're talking about here.

Isn't God quite capable of preventing genocide (by either side). He chose not to.

The obvious conclusion is that when God chose to do nothing to prevent genocide He actually encouraged it.

Therefore He approved.
OB
It says that God commanded genocide - that implies he approved of it... except in the case of Abraham, God actually didn't want Abraham to kill Isaac... but he wanted Abraham to choose to try and kill Isaac.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Deuteronomy 20:16-18

However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.
I think that could be called "genocide". If you are the Christian do you think this example of genocide is moral? My opinion is that this command is a test - a bit like the test that Abraham was given...

Genocide refers to the elimination of a whole ethnic group, what you are referring to here is wiping out the populations of cities, so the term would be mass killing. Although war between cities states was a regular thing at the time, the complete destruction of a city, as with the Edomite sacking of Ur, was a bit beyond the pale (see the 'lamentations concerning Ur'). The aim of the Israelites was to eliminate both any competition for resources and any religious or cultural influences they saw as being pernicious. Whether you think it might ultimately be a ‘good’ thing or not depends on your view of the world as it is now. Without this kind of aggressive action there would be no Judaic or Christian faith. There are lots of comparable scenarios - is the absolute horror inflicted on civilians across Latinamerica and parts of SE Asia justified by the eventual defeat of communism? You could say it is a matter of perspective.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Occams Barber

Newbie
Supporter
Aug 8, 2012
6,287
7,421
75
Northern NSW
✟981,569.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Divorced
Because God is the sole giver of life, and the sole giver of rights, only when he orders it. Outside of specific instances in the Bible like this one, he never ordered it, as he forbids it as a general rule. Hence, every other genocide, whether committed by Christians or any other group, was vile and wrong.


So God's moral code is dependent on context.

Humans are very similar.
OB
 
Upvote 0

JohnClay

Married Mouth-Breather
Supporter
Oct 27, 2006
1,129
186
Australia
Visit site
✟443,619.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Genocide refers to the elimination of a whole ethnic group, what you are referring to here is wiping out the populations of cities, so the term would be mass killing.
It singles out ethnic groups within the promised land:

"the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites".

I'd argue if the slaughter of an ethnic group was only restricted to their own lands (like within Germany, etc), it is still genocide.

It does include killing all of the animals, so that is genocide combined with killing everything.

....Without this kind of aggressive action there would be no Judaic or Christian faith...
But the Jews didn't even follow this command very faithfully.
 
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It singles out ethnic groups within the promised land:

"the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites".

I'd argue if the slaughter of an ethnic group was only restricted to their own lands (like within Germany, etc), it is still genocide.

It does include killing all of the animals, so that is genocide combined with killing everything.

Well, technically it says ' in the cities of the nations' so it would depend how you interpret that.

But the Jews didn't even follow this command very faithfully.

Yes. Personally I think this was all written post-fact, when the Israelites were in exile, to remind them that if they wanted to retain their cultural identity and claim the promise of a land of their own, they would need to be aggressively radical about it. It is perhaps a kind of hyperbole.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JohnClay

Married Mouth-Breather
Supporter
Oct 27, 2006
1,129
186
Australia
Visit site
✟443,619.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Well, technically it says ' in the cities of the nations' so it would depend how you interpret that.
So some ethnic groups were singled out.... even if they didn't kill all the ethnic groups in small towns and villages, it is still a form of genocide...

A definition:
"the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group."

Yes. Personally I think this was all written post-fact, when the Israelites were in exile, to remind them that if they wanted to retain their cultural identity and claim the promise of a land of their own, they would need to be aggressively radical about it. It is perhaps a kind of hyperbole.
Do you believe that soon after they were in Egypt, God commanded those things like wiping out the life within certain cities?
 
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do you believe that soon after they were in Egypt, God commanded those things like wiping out the life within certain cities?

No, the writing is retrospective. The exile was the babylonian exile, the relevant parts of the OT were written during that time.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0

JohnClay

Married Mouth-Breather
Supporter
Oct 27, 2006
1,129
186
Australia
Visit site
✟443,619.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
No, the writing is retrospective. The exile was the babylonian exile, the relevant parts of the OT were written during that time.
I get the impression that you don't believe that everything mentioned in the Bible necessarily happened...
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I get the impression that you don't believe that everything mentioned in the Bible necessarily happened...

Well, yes. It's not a modern history book. Certainly the Israelites engaged in warfare, sometimes as aggressors, sometimes as defenders. The actual accounts in the bible are there to make one point or another, that is their purpose, why they were written, not to provide an actual account of historical events in the sense that we think of that now. That was an irrelevant concept at the time, not an important consideration, and in any case impossible to achieve.
 
Upvote 0