IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

Kermos

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.
Feb 10, 2019
634
118
United States
Visit site
✟38,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Continued from post #362

THE SUPPER IN JOHN CHAPTERS 13 TO 17

Both the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-14) as well as God's exclusive role in choosing man (John 15:16) occur in the self-same supper recorded in John chapters 13 - 17.

Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." (Acts 2:38-39)

LORD JESUS' PRAYER FOR US BELIEVERS

Part of the prayer of Lord Jesus during the supper is thus "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20) which means that "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) are words that the Apostle John recorded. John recorded the Word of God, and the Word of God says "for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and He preceded these words with "I do not ask on behalf of these alone" (John 17:20), so the Word of God during the supper is not just for the people in the room, but the Word of God during the supper is for all believers in all time.

In another part of the prayer, Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours" (John 17:9).

Jesus said "I do not ask on behalf of the world" (John 17:9), so Jesus uses "the world" to mean different things. Such a difference exists in His use of "the world" in (John 17:9) compared to His use of "the world" in (John 3:16).

Thus, belief in Jesus through the Apostle John's words includes the Lord Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 which are all part of the "through" John's "word" (John 17:20) which Jesus referred to in His prayer.

JOHN'S WRITINGS FOR US BELIEVERS

The Apostle John wrote "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31).

Among the writings of John includes the statements of Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). These sayings of Jesus Christ, Lord and God (John 20:28), are part and parcel of the exclusive attribute of Jesus with respect to choice in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.

John's writings are for us believers to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing we have life in His Name; therefore, belief in Jesus about whom John wrote includes the exclusive centrality of choice reserved to Jesus by Jesus through Jesus in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.

JESUS COMMANDS US BELIEVERS TO GO AND TEACH AND PROCLAIM

The Apostle Matthew recorded the command of Jesus Christ, the Word of God (John 1:14), for all His sheep (John 10:27-30) with His words of "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:19-20) and Mark recorded "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to all creation" (Mark 16:15). This teaching, this proclamation includes the exclusive role of God choosing man not man choosing God (John 15:16, John 15:19) for these words are a statement of the sovereignty of God according to Jesus Christ, Lord and God (John
20:28).

One of the teachings, one of the commands of Jesus is for we sheep of His to be entirely dependent on Jesus alone for salvation! We are to go and teach and proclaim this Truth (John 14:6).

THE WORD OF GOD IS TRUE

Based on the above stated facts, as an independent first aveneue, the Apostles were not the only disciples in the supper room, so the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) is binding upon all believers in all time.

As an independent second aveneue, just as the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17) is binding upon all believers in all time also binding are the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Furthermore, as an independent third aveneue, since Lord Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20) with "their word" including John's messages a.k.a. the Book of John a.k.a. the Good Message of John a.k.a. the Gospel of John a.k.a. the supper recorded in John chapters thirteen to seventeen a.k.a. the word of John, this also makes "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) binding on all believers in all time.

Moreover, John's writings as an independent fourth aveneue express Jesus' inherent quality of choice reserved to Jesus alone in Jesus by Jesus through Jesus in the salvation of all His sheep in all time (John 4:6-42 [Living Water], John 6:35-40 [Bread of Life], John 7:37-39 [Living Water], John 15:13-19 [die for friends and God chooses exclusively], John 6:29 [God defines faith/belief in we believers as the work of God], John 3:21 [God wrings fruit in we believers], John 3:3-8 [God births we believers], John 6:44 [God draws the people of God and we people of God come to God], John 12:32 [God draws the people of God], John 20:28 [Jesus is God]).

Additionally, Lord Jesus' command for we believers to go and teach and proclaim as an independent fifth aveneue includes revealing the salvation of the Lord is of and by and through the Lord Jesus Christ exclusively (John 15:13-19, Matthew 19:25-26, and Exodus 14:13-18 as instruction from the Old Testament).
 
Upvote 0

Francis Drake

Returning adventurer.
Apr 14, 2013
4,000
2,508
✟184,952.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Independence-Party
You argue from your imagination. The scripture does not state that man has a free will to choose toward God. The Word of God is clear that God is our believer's merciful Benefactor, and we believers are unworthy beneficiaries (post in this thread).
I could respond that it's you who's arguing from his imagination, but I doubt you have anything outside of your Calvinist programming.
To most readers, that scripture is a straight forward call to serve the Lord, but to the Calvinist, nope, it has another meaning altogether.
Josh24v14“Now therefore, fear the Lord, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord! 15And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
In the context, "choose for yourselves" means they had freewill to choose for God or choose for various pagan gods. To claim otherwise is being perverse.
While "self will" is akin to "free will", they are not precisely the same thing. In the "REGARDING GENESIS" section, I wrote "self will" not "free will". Since you try to twist scripture which carries eternal punishment (Revelation 22:18-19), I am not surprised that you try to twist that which I wrote.
I don't care how much you try to make a wiggle gap between "self will" and "free will", they amount to exactly the same. In both cases, I myself, make choices.
When the Lord stood at my door and knocked, I chose to open up and welcome him in.
But regarding your fool threats of eternal punishment, they don't strengthen your argument, they just make me laugh.
If you imagine God is ready to smite all those who reject your Calvinism, then you need a reality check.
The Apostle Paul wrote of "free will", but in an illusory fashion in Philemon 1:14, and that is the only mention of "free will" in the New Testament.
There are many other things not mentioned directly in scripture, but that doesn't make them not true.
The Apostle Peter wrote of "self will", but in a concrete fashion in 2 Peter 2:9-10, and that is the only mention of "self will" in the New Testament.

The Apostle Peter wrote "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
Those verses give you no help against man's freewill.
Peter wrote "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation"
AND "the Lord knows how" "to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment"
SO the Lord God's control over salvation is amplified in Peter's writing.
Absolute nonsense. This gives no support for your claim against freewill.
Peter also wrote important points about the unrighteous
DARING: the unrighteous do things like claim they choose Jesus contrary to the Lord's words "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)
The simple Jewish fishermen were already righteous believers. They were now being called to discipleship, not getting born again.
SELF-WILLED: the unrighteous are self-willed
NOT trembling when they revile angelic majesties
BY claiming choice toward Jesus
SO the self-willed persons contradict the Lord's words of "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).
Again, just a call to discipleship, not new life.
In the unrighteous person's daring self-will, they are condemned
THEREFORE, "self will" is a cause unto damnation in the New Testament.
Being convicted by the Holy Spirit, I chose to surrender my life to the Lord. And now I am damned! Again I laugh at such nonsense.
Your Calvinist god might be like that, but the God I worship is not.
 
Upvote 0

Kermos

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.
Feb 10, 2019
634
118
United States
Visit site
✟38,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Self interest or concern for others. Seems like a choice to me.

No one can make a choice of Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28).

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Jesus Christ, John 15:16).

"I chose you out of the world" (Jesus Christ, John 15:19).
 
Upvote 0

Kermos

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.
Feb 10, 2019
634
118
United States
Visit site
✟38,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I could respond that it's you who's arguing from his imagination, but I doubt you have anything outside of your Calvinist programming.

To most readers, that scripture is a straight forward call to serve the Lord, but to the Calvinist, nope, it has another meaning altogether.
Josh24v14“Now therefore, fear the Lord, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord! 15And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
In the context, "choose for yourselves" means they had freewill to choose for God or choose for various pagan gods. To claim otherwise is being perverse.

I don't care how much you try to make a wiggle gap between "self will" and "free will", they amount to exactly the same. In both cases, I myself, make choices.
When the Lord stood at my door and knocked, I chose to open up and welcome him in.
But regarding your fool threats of eternal punishment, they don't strengthen your argument, they just make me laugh.
If you imagine God is ready to smite all those who reject your Calvinism, then you need a reality check.

There are many other things not mentioned directly in scripture, but that doesn't make them not true.

Those verses give you no help against man's freewill.

Absolute nonsense. This gives no support for your claim against freewill.

The simple Jewish fishermen were already righteous believers. They were now being called to discipleship, not getting born again.

Again, just a call to discipleship, not new life.

Being convicted by the Holy Spirit, I chose to surrender my life to the Lord. And now I am damned! Again I laugh at such nonsense.
Your Calvinist god might be like that, but the God I worship is not.

I cite the Word of God. I am a Christian for I follow Christ.

You make yourself out to be superior to the apostles by saying you can choose Jesus but the apostles could not choose Jesus. You deny the Word of God, that puts you squarely in self will.

Free will amd self will are two different things, thus says the Apostle Paul (Philemon 1:14), thus says the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10} (post in this thread).

In your self will, the god you worship is not Jesus because Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), and the Word of God shows that Jesus' audience is all believers in all time when He said such (post in this thread).

The no free will choice toward God in the Bible including Joshua 24:14-15 properly exegeted proves it out for the only choices are pagan gods (post in this thread).

There is no freewill in Joshua 24:14-15, so this reinforces that freewill is a figment of your imagination - illusory - just a Paul wrote in Philemon 1:14.

Fisherman??? Righteous??? Peter said "Go away from me Lord, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!" (Luke 5:8).

I do not know of this Calvinist god to which you refer - that is just like your free will - an illusion of your imagination; furthermore, that illusion is just like you thinking that you chose the One True God, but you did not for you chose a false god.

A person in the "sin nature" ("first nature") cannot please God, so the unrighteous person cannot choose the One True God (post in this thread).

Here is more of the Word of God for you, a self willed person, that dares to deny the Word of God:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death." (John 8:51)

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15)

"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 10:33)

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48)

Lord Jesus says keep his word, but self will people who claim free will to choose Jesus add to Jesus' words, so those free-willians reject Jesus and do not receive His sayings, so the word Jesus spoke is what will judge the self willed people at the last day.

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).
 
Upvote 0

DennisTate

Newbie
Supporter
Mar 31, 2012
10,742
1,664
Nova Scotia, Canada
Visit site
✟379,864.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Is the will of humans controlled by God?

Not one hundred percent controlled?

Is it eighty percent or ninety percent controlled by God?

I don't know but I heard a theory that even the Prophet Elijah may have had the freedom to do something that was not even close to being what God wanted Elijah to do at a certain important point in time under a certain set of circumstances?????????

Could the prophet Elijah have altered history if he had NOT........


... RAN AWAY from Queen Jezebel and her armies?

Should Christians support Rebuilding of Jerusalem Third Temple.



Would any of you debaters like to elaborate on the theory that this pastor probably put forward?

This may get your creative juices working:
Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 type events.
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
@Francis Drake @CharismaticLady BNR32FAN you and others like you claim to practice free-will choice towards God, and among you there are resounds a common refrain against the words of Jesus who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) both quotations of which refer to the exclusive role of God in the salvation of men.

The common refrain among you is that Jesus' audience is restricted to only the apostles.

The Word of God clearly indicates that these words of Jesus apply to all believers in all time based on five independent avenues,

As a preface, you say that you can do something that Jesus told the apostles they could not do. You try to make yourself out to be more powerful than the apostles in your unscriptural salvation claim of choosing Jesus yourself.

On to the five avenues.

Both Matthias as well as Joseph were present when Lord Jesus declares that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

Both the promise of the Holy Spirit and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

Both the prayer of Lord Jesus that incorporates all believers in all time and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

Near the conclusion of the Gospel of John, the Apostle John's own writing, He wrote "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31) which applies to the supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

Just prior to the ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ, He commanded us to go and teach and proclaim which applies to the supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

BACKGROUD AND EVENTS AROUND THE SUPPER

EXHIBIT 1:

Luke discloses that there were more than twelve disciples at the time that Jesus named as apostles.

"And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:" (Luke 6:13)

EXHIBIT 2:

This passage establishes Jesus' "disciples" present from the beginning of the supper for John chapters 13-17, this says "disciples" not "apostles":

"Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded." (John 13:5)

EXHIBIT 3:

There is record of a single person leaving the supper prior to the supper's conclusion, and that person is Judas Iscariot in the John 13:21-30 passage.

EXHIBIT 4:

Jesus says "but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here" (John 14:31).

After that, Jesus with the disciples may have been in the room where they had supper during the words of Jesus recorded in chapters 15 to 17 OR preparing to leave the room OR departing the room OR outside the room OR some combination of these - the Apostle John did not record that specifically. The way that John presents Jesus' discourse is that Jesus continued one way or the other at that time. John's manner presented Jesus' discourse as one contiguous discourse; in other words, the way that John presents Jesus' discourse is that Jesus continued one way or the other at that time. EXHIBIT 5 bears the appearance that they remained in the room.

EXHIBIT 5:

At the supper's conclusion, the next indication of movement of Jesus and the disciples is when Jesus and His disciples went forth over the ravine of the Kidron.

"When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, in which He entered with His disciples." (John 18:1)

EXPOSITION OF THE EXHIBITS

The chronology of these events is very important and crucial. The exhibits are provided in chronological order.

After EXHIBIT 3 (Judas departed) and before EXHIBIT 5 (supper concludes) the promises of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-14) and Jesus declaring God exclusively chooses men not men choosing God (John 15:16, John 15:19) occurs.

Lord Jesus said "you" in John 14:16-17 (as well as every one of the listed references to the promise of the Holy Spirit) and He said "you" in John 15:16 as recorded by the Apostle John.

The word "you" that Jesus uses throughout the supper is powerfully important!

DISCIPLES IN THE SUPPER ROOM WITH JESUS

The disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus as described here:

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

In the room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13).

Joanna, Susanna, Salome, Mary, and Cleopas and his traveling companion to Emmaus - every one of these individuals are mentioned in close temporal proximity to the time of supper in John chapters 13-17. These names of disciples are close enough in time to potentially be included as the "disciples" mentioned by John in EXHIBIT 1 and EXHIBIT 5.

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the twelve who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17.

LORD JESUS' PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FULFILLING

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17).

When the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples of Jesus at Pentecost, there were about 120 persons present according to the next two sets of passages:

"Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away. When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said" (Acts 1:12-15)

"When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance." (Acts 2:1-4)

One hundred twenty people is more than eleven Apostles; therefore, the Lord Jesus was talking to all His disciples of all time when Jesus said "you" with reference to the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17) and He said "you" with reference to God's exclusive ability to choose men and men's inability to choose God (John 15:16) as recorded by the Apostle John.

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the 11 Apostles, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius.

Continued to post #363

Choosing has all to do with foreknowledge. Jesus, being God, knew who would believe; therefore, through that foreknowledge He predestined them. There was no predestination or choosing without foreknowledge. It is our choosing that is of our own FREE WILL.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

If you want to continue to believe God actually chooses some to be damned without their free will choice to love darkness, so be it. I choose a just God.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

They had a choice to believe and receive, or love darkness and perish.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Francis Drake
Upvote 0

Francis Drake

Returning adventurer.
Apr 14, 2013
4,000
2,508
✟184,952.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Independence-Party
No one can make a choice of Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28).
Again you quote verses that prove nothing for your theology.
John20v24Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”

So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.

Anyone reading the above with an open heart would realise that the subject in question was whether the other disciples had actually seen the Lord. Thomas's statement, "I will not believe," was directed at the other disciples not Jesus.
Thus the question had absolutely nothing to do with Thomas's salvation.
"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Jesus Christ, John 15:16).
Your shameful abuse of that scripture is easy to spot if you bothered to read what Jesus actually said in its context.-
John15v16You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
As Jesus says, he chose and appointed them to go and bear fruit. In no place does it say he chose them to get born again or get saved.
He chose disciples from the faithful Jews who came to John's baptism. ie, With absolute certainty, they were already repentant born again believers!
 
Upvote 0

Francis Drake

Returning adventurer.
Apr 14, 2013
4,000
2,508
✟184,952.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Independence-Party
I cite the Word of God. I am a Christian for I follow Christ.
Undoubtedly you are a Christian, but apparently a Calvinist first and foremost. But thankfully, God takes all sorts!
You make yourself out to be superior to the apostles by saying you can choose Jesus but the apostles could not choose Jesus. You deny the Word of God, that puts you squarely in self will.
Amusing thought, but I am superior to nobody in the body of Christ, past or present.
And yes, absolutely I made self will, or freewill choices when I accepted the lord's call on my life.
Rev3v20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone should hear My voice and open the door, then I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
Jesus knocked and I made the choice to open up to him.
Your use of these verses is beyond comprehension, they contribute nothing for you.
In your self will, the god you worship is not Jesus because Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), and the Word of God shows that Jesus' audience is all believers in all time when He said such (post in this thread).
By the sound of it, the Jesus I worship is very different to yours.
And one of the reasons I love and worship Him is because He has never ridden roughshod over my freewill!
Over the last 60 years, Jesus has always lead me by love, not force.
The reason I opened my heart to him as a child was entirely because of his love, not because He forced me and not because of theology.
But to your scripture again, there is absolutely nothing in that passage to indicate Jesus chose unbelievers to become believers. Jesus started calling his disciples after they had already been baptised by John as repentant sinners. ie, They were already born again believers before they met Jesus.
The no free will choice toward God in the Bible including Joshua 24:14-15 properly exegeted proves it out for the only choices are pagan gods (post in this thread).

There is no freewill in Joshua 24:14-15, so this reinforces that freewill is a figment of your imagination - illusory - just a Paul wrote in Philemon 1:14.
You are so filled with Calvinist dogma that you can't see the verses you quote prove people have always possessed freewill.
If they did not have freewill to rebel, then such verses as the above would be superfluous and would never need to be written.
Fisherman??? Righteous??? Peter said "Go away from me Lord, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!" (Luke 5:8).
Goodness me, you haven't a clue have you. I'll let you draw your own conclusions from what Jesus said about such things. If you need help, let me know.
Lk18v10“Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee having stood, was praying toward himself thus: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like the rest of the men—swindlers, unrighteous, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice in the week; I tithe all things, as many as I gain.’

13But the tax collector, standing afar off, was not even willing to lift up the eyes to heaven, but was striking his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14I say to you, this one went down to his house justified, rather than that. For everyone exalting himself will be humbled; but the one humbling himself will be exalted.”
Clue. Peter was humbling himself.
I do not know of this Calvinist god to which you refer - that is just like your free will - an illusion of your imagination; furthermore, that illusion is just like you thinking that you chose the One True God, but you did not for you chose a false god.
If you say so.
More Calvinist falsehood, not scripture.
Scripture states that if Jesus knocks, he can open up.
Here is more of the Word of God for you, a self willed person, that dares to deny the Word of God:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death." (John 8:51)
This says nothing about your Calvinist dogma.
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15)
Again, nothing to do with your Calvinist dogma.
"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 10:33)
More irrelevance to Calvin
"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48)
Again doesn't prove Calvinism
Lord Jesus says keep his word, but self will people who claim free will to choose Jesus add to Jesus' words, so those free-willians reject Jesus and do not receive His sayings, so the word Jesus spoke is what will judge the self willed people at the last day.
Amusing, given that Calvin is renowned for adding reams to scripture
"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).
So according to you, God will add to me all the plagues from the book of Revelation.
That's great tactics for persuading people that you've got the right theology.

For my part, I'll let God be the judge. In the mean time, I shall continue on my daily spiritual adventure with the God who loves me.
 
Upvote 0

Kermos

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.
Feb 10, 2019
634
118
United States
Visit site
✟38,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Your hilarious self righteousness is leaking out
You write "self righteousness" about me who proclaims that salvation of men is exclusively the dominion of God and I point to the glory of God; on the other hand, you glory in your claimed choice of God that you have purchased your own salvation by your work of a choice for you say that without your choice you would not have salvation.

Righteous is God.

Unrighteous is the self-willed person.

The Apostle Peter had something to write about unrighteous, he wrote that the unrighteous walk according to self will even daring to revile angelic majesties (2 Peter 2:9-10) which includes the self willed persons contradicting the words of Jesus such as "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

The Apostle Paul had something to write about righteous, he wrote "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

See that Paul wrote "the righteousness of God in Him", so we believers are the righteousness of God in Jesus - Jesus is a requirement for righteousness as well as the fact that Jesus is our believers righteousness.

You try to steal the glory of God with your work of a choice, so that is unrighteousness.

Francis Drake "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter" (Isaiah 5:20).

I point at the glory of God, and you call that "self righteousness" - an unscriptural term.

You call what is good evil.

Lord Jesus says "The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness" (Matthew 6:22-23).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Kermos

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.
Feb 10, 2019
634
118
United States
Visit site
✟38,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Choosing has all to do with foreknowledge. Jesus, being God, knew who would believe; therefore, through that foreknowledge He predestined them. There was no predestination or choosing without foreknowledge. It is our choosing that is of our own FREE WILL.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

If you want to continue to believe God actually chooses some to be damned without their free will choice to love darkness, so be it. I choose a just God.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

They had a choice to believe and receive, or love darkness and perish.
You are wrong because the first nature of man is enmity against God in that carnal nature unless the the Living God intervenes (post in this thread).

In Biblical terms, to "know" is an intimate affair, so foreknowledge is intimate between God and man. Furthermore, the "predestined goes with the foreknew because Paul wrote "He also". This is God's predestination of man's salvation. There is no mention of choice by man (post in this thread).

Respecting "they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved", you are confused about the meaning of "receive".

"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY EXAMPLE:

A boxer receives punches - not by choice - but in the fury of the fight.

The pedestrian received a series of traumatic injuries - not by choice - but a result of the collision.

A lover receives a love letter - not by choice - but in gladness.

"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY DICTIONARY:

1. TRANSITIVE VERB When you receive something, you get it after someone gives it to you or sends it to you. (Collins COBUILD English Usage (c) HarperCollins Publishers 1992, 2004, 2011, 2012)

There is a keyword in the definition, which is "after".

"RECEIVE" USAGE IN SCRIPTURE:

"Peter [said] to them, 'Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.'" (Acts 2:38-39, this was Peter's response after the people who were pierced to the heart by Peter's proclamation inquired "Brethren, what shall we do?" in Acts 2:14-37)

Peter issued the command "think differently from now on" (repent) and the command "be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" and here is where "receive" comes in, "you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" which is an act of God.

RECEIVE DOES NOT INCLUDE CHOICE

There is no choice indicated in "they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved".

You do not understand Romans 8:29-30 since it is spiritually appraised (1 Corinthians 2:14) and you deny being one of Jesus' sheep.

You chose a false god because Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and here are five independent scriptural avenues that all arrive at the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) refers to all believers in all time (post in this thread).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Kermos

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.
Feb 10, 2019
634
118
United States
Visit site
✟38,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Again you quote verses that prove nothing for your theology.
John20v24Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”

So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

Anyone reading the above with an open heart would realise that the subject in question was whether the other disciples had actually seen the Lord. Thomas's statement, "I will not believe," was directed at the other disciples not Jesus.
Thus the question had absolutely nothing to do with Thomas's salvation.

You are really confused. I cite John 20:28 because Thomas declares "My Lord and My God". I am not referring ot Thomas' salvation there. Look at the adjacent words next to where I cite John 20:28.

"open heart" - another unscriptural term - you do not understand the heart captivated by God!

Your shameful abuse of that scripture is easy to spot if you bothered to read what Jesus actually said in its context.-
John15v16You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
As Jesus says, he chose and appointed them to go and bear fruit. In no place does it say he chose them to get born again or get saved.
He chose disciples from the faithful Jews who came to John's baptism. ie, With absolute certainty, they were already repentant born again believers!

You deny the Word of God because "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) thus this is about salvation.
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
You are wrong because the first nature of man is enmity against God in that carnal nature unless the the Living God intervenes (post in this thread).

In Biblical terms, to "know" is an intimate affair, so foreknowledge is intimate between God and man. Furthermore, the "predestined goes with the foreknew because Paul wrote "He also". This is God's predestination of man's salvation. There is no mention of choice by man (post in this thread).

Respecting "they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved", you are confused about the meaning of "receive".

"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY EXAMPLE:

A boxer receives punches - not by choice - but in the fury of the fight.

The pedestrian received a series of traumatic injuries - not by choice - but a result of the collision.

A lover receives a love letter - not by choice - but in gladness.

"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY DICTIONARY:

1. TRANSITIVE VERB When you receive something, you get it after someone gives it to you or sends it to you. (Collins COBUILD English Usage (c) HarperCollins Publishers 1992, 2004, 2011, 2012)

There is a keyword in the definition, which is "after".

"RECEIVE" USAGE IN SCRIPTURE:

"Peter [said] to them, 'Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.'" (Acts 2:38-39, this was Peter's response after the people who were pierced to the heart by Peter's proclamation inquired "Brethren, what shall we do?" in Acts 2:14-37)

Peter issued the command "think differently from now on" (repent) and the command "be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" and here is where "receive" comes in, "you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" which is an act of God.

RECEIVE DOES NOT INCLUDE CHOICE

There is no choice indicated in "they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved".

You do not understand Romans 8:29-30 since it is spiritually appraised (1 Corinthians 2:14) and you deny being one of Jesus' sheep.

You chose a false god because Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and here are five independent scriptural avenues that all arrive at the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) refers to all believers in all time (post in this thread).

Your doctrine doesn't tell us how to be saved, but that even if you accept Jesus, unless God has already chosen you, you are still damned, because Jesus didn't die for you. Ridiculous

I can hear His voice, but that is because I repented and Jesus filled me with His powerful Spirit. And the Spirit gave me many gifts, including a way to know God's will and have all my prayers answered.

From what I understand about John Calvin, he didn't believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit. Do you know whether or not he was the father of the false doctrine of Cessationism, because I don't know of any Calvinist that isn't a Cessationist?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,437
8,394
up there
✟303,756.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
No one can make a choice of Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28).

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Jesus Christ, John 15:16).

"I chose you out of the world" (Jesus Christ, John 15:19).
You are taking a different path. I'm talking about choice between following the traditional ways of man or the ways of God.
 
Upvote 0

Kermos

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.
Feb 10, 2019
634
118
United States
Visit site
✟38,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Undoubtedly you are a Christian, but apparently a Calvinist first and foremost. But thankfully, God takes all sorts!

This unscriptural Calvinist thing you talk about, I didn't study his writings. I do not follow Calvin.

I am a Christian because I follow Christ.

Amusing thought, but I am superior to nobody in the body of Christ, past or present.
And yes, absolutely I made self will, or freewill choices when I accepted the lord's call on my life.
Rev3v20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone should hear My voice and open the door, then I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
Jesus knocked and I made the choice to open up to him.

The unrighteous cannot choose Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Since you did not notice, Revelation 3:20 is about knocking on the door of an assembly - it is not about knocking on the door of the heart of an unbeliever.

You impose your imagination on scripture again and again which is unrighteous just like Peter wrote (2 Peter 2:9-10).

You are contradicting two passages of Scripture.

Your use of these verses is beyond comprehension, they contribute nothing for you.

It is beyond your comprehension because a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Free will amd self will are two different things, thus says the Apostle Paul (Philemon 1:14), thus says the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10} (post in this thread).

By the sound of it, the Jesus I worship is very different to yours.

You worship a false god because of your claimed choice despite the fact that Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

And one of the reasons I love and worship Him is because He has never ridden roughshod over my freewill!

Your freewill is illusory as Paul wrote (Philemon 1:14). You are in self will as Peter wrote (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Over the last 60 years, Jesus has always lead me by love, not force.
The reason I opened my heart to him as a child was entirely because of his love, not because He forced me and not because of theology.
But to your scripture again, there is absolutely nothing in that passage to indicate Jesus chose unbelievers to become believers. Jesus started calling his disciples after they had already been baptised by John as repentant sinners. ie, They were already born again believers before they met Jesus.

No place in scripture indicates that any of the disciples were baptised by John.

Your "I opened my heart to him" is unscriptural, there is no scripture to support a person opening their heart to God.

You blindly write that "there is absolutely nothing in that passage to indicate Jesus chose unbelievers to become believers" which is the deceit of the devil because Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

You are so filled with Calvinist dogma that you can't see the verses you quote prove people have always possessed freewill.
If they did not have freewill to rebel, then such verses as the above would be superfluous and would never need to be written.

I am filled by and with the Word of God.

You are filled with self will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

The first nature of man exposed and that nature is carnal without the intervention of the Living God (post in this thread)

Goodness me, you haven't a clue have you. I'll let you draw your own conclusions from what Jesus said about such things. If you need help, let me know.
Lk18v10“Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee having stood, was praying toward himself thus: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like the rest of the men—swindlers, unrighteous, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice in the week; I tithe all things, as many as I gain.’

13But the tax collector, standing afar off, was not even willing to lift up the eyes to heaven, but was striking his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14I say to you, this one went down to his house justified, rather than that. For everyone exalting himself will be humbled; but the one humbling himself will be exalted.”
Clue. Peter was humbling himself.

No, Peter requested the Lord to leave because Peter called himself a sinful man (Luke 5:8). You are imposing "humbling himself" where no such was express nor impress, thus it is your imagination.

Be careful how you try to apply parables.

If you say so.

More Calvinist falsehood, not scripture.
Scripture states that if Jesus knocks, he can open up.

No scripture states that Jesus knocks on the door of the unbelievers heart then the person opens the door. Zero. Nada. Your door knocking is part of your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

The first nature of man exposed and that nature is carnal without the intervention of the Living God (post in this thread)

This says nothing about your Calvinist dogma.

Again, nothing to do with your Calvinist dogma.

More irrelevance to Calvin

Again doesn't prove Calvinism

Amusing, given that Calvin is renowned for adding reams to scripture

Francis Drake, you deny the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), so this Word of God applies to you in your current state:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death." (John 8:51)

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15)

"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 10:33)

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48)

Lord Jesus says keep his word, but self will people who claim free will to choose Jesus add to Jesus' words, so those free-willians reject Jesus and do not receive His sayings, so the word Jesus spoke is what will judge them at the last day.

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

So according to you, God will add to me all the plagues from the book of Revelation.
That's great tactics for persuading people that you've got the right theology.

The proud are defiant of the Word of God for such is The first nature of man exposed and that nature is carnal without the intervention of the Living God (post in this thread)

For my part, I'll let God be the judge. In the mean time, I shall continue on my daily spiritual adventure with the God who loves me.

In your pride, in your arrogance, you wrote that you'll "let God be the judge".

In your pride, in your arrogance, you wrote that you chose Jesus despite the Word of God saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Francis Drake, God is judge, I remind you of the Word of God again "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48) and the Father "He has given all judgment to the Son" (John 5:22).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Kermos

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.
Feb 10, 2019
634
118
United States
Visit site
✟38,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Your doctrine doesn't tell us how to be saved, but that even if you accept Jesus, unless God has already chosen you, you are still damned, because Jesus didn't die for you. Ridiculous

I can hear His voice, but that is because I repented and Jesus filled me with His powerful Spirit. And the Spirit gave me many gifts, including a way to know God's will and have all my prayers answered.

From what I understand about John Calvin, he didn't believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit. Do you know whether or not he was the father of the false doctrine of Cessationism, because I don't know of any Calvinist that isn't a Cessationist?
Respecting Cessationism. I don't know if Calvin is the "father" of the doctrine.

Honestly, years ago, God impressed upon me to read the Bible, and God opened my heart (Acts 16:14). I won't go into details here.

It was much later that I understood what "reformed" meant, and that people of the reformed persuasion tend to indicate that God is sovereign. It was later still that I found out that there are reformed churches and about Calvin and Luther as part of "Lutheran church" and Zwingli etc.

Even later, I watched a documentary by Justin Peters, and he argued for Cessationism, and some of the people that I talked with promoted it. Cessationism argues from an unsriptural stance.

Returning to your first paragraph, CharismaticLady.

You call the Word of God ridiculous, after all, I cite the Word of God.

Christian doctrine tells how to be saved, and the it is all God while man does no work of choice/accept according to the citations of the Word of God:
John 4:6-42 [Living Water]
John 6:35-40 [Bread of Life]
John 7:37-39 [Living Water]
John 15:13-19 [die for friends and God chooses exclusively]
John 6:29 [God defines faith/belief in we believers as the work of God]
John 3:21 [God wrings fruit in we believers]
John 3:3-8 [God births we believers]
John 6:44 [God draws the people of God and we people of God come to God]
John 12:32 [God draws the people of God], John 20:28 [Jesus is God]
 
Upvote 0

Kermos

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.
Feb 10, 2019
634
118
United States
Visit site
✟38,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You are taking a different path. I'm talking about choice between following the traditional ways of man or the ways of God.
There is no ability for man to choose the Way which is Jesus for the Way, the Word of God, Jesus Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

It is the default condition of men to follow the precepts of men (post in this thread) (Matthew 15:9).

There is one Way to the Father, and no one gets to the Father except through the Son of God (John 14:6).
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Respecting Cessationism. I don't know if Calvin is the "father" of the doctrine.

Honestly, years ago, God impressed upon me to read the Bible, and God opened my heart (Acts 16:14). I won't go into details here.

It was much later that I understood what "reformed" meant, and that people of the reformed persuasion tend to indicate that God is sovereign. It was later still that I found out that there are reformed churches and about Calvin and Luther as part of "Lutheran church" and Zwingli etc.

Even later, I watched a documentary by Justin Peters, and he argued for Cessationism, and some of the people that I talked with promoted it. Cessationism argues from an unsriptural stance.

Returning to your first paragraph, CharismaticLady.

You call the Word of God ridiculous, after all, I cite the Word of God.

Christian doctrine tells how to be saved, and the it is all God while man does no work of choice/accept according to the citations of the Word of God:
John 4:6-42 [Living Water]
John 6:35-40 [Bread of Life]
John 7:37-39 [Living Water]
John 15:13-19 [die for friends and God chooses exclusively]
John 6:29 [God defines faith/belief in we believers as the work of God]
John 3:21 [God wrings fruit in we believers]
John 3:3-8 [God births we believers]
John 6:44 [God draws the people of God and we people of God come to God]
John 12:32 [God draws the people of God], John 20:28 [Jesus is God]

I sited the doctrines that are unscriptural as being ridiculous. The Word of God says the opposite, and I agree with it, not false teachers misinterpretations.
 
Upvote 0

Kermos

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.
Feb 10, 2019
634
118
United States
Visit site
✟38,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God is our believer's merciful Benefactor!

We believers are unworthy beneficiaries.

Our gracious Benefactor produces divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
Our gracious Benefactor produces beneficiaries' faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek ?????? pistis) and believe (Greek ??????? pisteuó))

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is by/of/through God
Our gracious Benefactor produces beneficiaries' fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says

"he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is by/of/through God
Our gracious Benefactor produces beneficiaries' birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is by/of/through God
There is no quarter for man respecting salvation. God does it ALL! Praise Jesus!

Five independent scriptural avenues that all arrive at the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) refers to all believers in all time (post in this thread)

The Apostle Peter wrote of people in "self will" as unrighteous in 2 Peter 2:9-10 and the Apostle Paul wrote of "free will" as illusory in Philemon 1:14 (post in this thread)

The first nature of man exposed and that nature is carnal without the intervention of the Living God (post in this thread)

The no free will choice toward God in the Bible and Joshua 24:14-15 properly exegeted (post in this thread)

The Romans 9 progression is (1) The early part of God's plan revealed, (2) Individual salvation completely dependent on God with NO work by man in salvation, (3) The grafting of the Gentiles into Israel, but Paul does not out leave individual salvation, (4) the final sentence of the chapter returning to individual salvation "HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED" (post in this thread)

the Apostle Paul wrote that God causes those who God foreknew God also predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son (Romans 8:28-30) (post in this thread)

"Receive" defined (post in this thread)

Lord Jesus says "you" in John chapters 13-17 to refer to all believers in all time (post in this thread)

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Kermos

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.
Feb 10, 2019
634
118
United States
Visit site
✟38,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I sited the doctrines that are unscriptural as being ridiculous. The Word of God says the opposite, and I agree with it, not false teachers misinterpretations.
You are trying to deceive, CharismaticLady, and here is the proof.

You claim that you chose Jesus, but Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and here are five independent scriptural avenues that all arrive at the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and this Word of God refers to all believers in all time (post in this thread); therefore, you are calling the Word of God ridiculous.
 
Upvote 0