Does religion cause war?

BigV said:

Territory is right. The United States killed off many of the Native Americans too. Russia took Crimea, but the irony in them taking it, is that there was a referendum held where most people voted to return to Russia. And it's interesting to me that American Christians see no distinction between US invading Iraq and Russia 'invading' Crimea.

Stealing resources is a good one. Ultimately, it was the oil that prompted American presence in the Middle East, where we remain to this day. Not because we need oil, but because we need to keep others from getting to it (players such as China and Russia). And not a peep (typically) from Western Christians on this.

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I love how he twists his tactics to somehow find a way to attack Christians. It’s completely untrue however.

Christians Gather To Protest Iraq War

Over 3,000 Christians to Stage Iraq War Protest at White House

Christians protest the war: Under the peace witness banner

I’m sure there’s probably a couple hundred more sites refuting your error.

BigV said:

This is from your source on over 3,000 Christians staging protest:



It's the LIBERAL Christians that are opposing the war!

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The article mentions two conservative groups in support of the war and eight groups protesting it. Nowhere does the article say that only liberal Christians protested the war. In your last post you were claiming that no Christians were opposing the war. Are these just honest mistakes or are they intentional deceptions?

BigV said:

It's the LIBERAL Christians that are opposing the war!

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Christians then.

"Other sponsors include the National Council of Churches, Episcopal Peace Church, Baptist Peace Fellowship of North America, Methodist Federation for Social Action, Presbyterian Peace Fellowship, Lutheran Peace Fellowship, and Maryknoll Office for Global Concerns."

Over 3,000 Christians to Stage Iraq War Protest at White House

Yes.

MrsFoundit said:

Christians then.

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actually the article mentions 10 groups and two of which who were in support of the troops in Iraq were conservative. It doesn’t mention that the other groups were liberal that’s just an assumption he’s making.

BigV said:

I liked the subject topic that was posted here:
Does religion cause war?

However, it's posted where only Christians can respond. I would like to open this for a bigger discussion.

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Yes, people use religion as a justification for war. People also use many other reasons to justify war. What I would object to is a claim that all wars are caused by religion.

Other than that, whether any particular act of war is actually justified - whether religion is improperly appropriated or innately & immorally pursues war - can be placed on the list of never-ending debates.

But suppose we settled the matter. What then?

BNR32FAN said:

actually the article mentions 10 groups and two of which who were in support of the troops in Iraq were conservative. It doesn’t mention that the other groups were liberal that’s just an assumption he’s making.

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Still Christians either way.

MrsFoundit said:

Still Christians either way.

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The thing I can’t understand is why someone who doesn’t believe in God would spend so much time attacking Him. I often wonder if this person spends as much time on other forums attacking the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

BigV said:

I liked the subject topic that was posted here:
Does religion cause war?

However, it's posted where only Christians can respond. I would like to open this for a bigger discussion.

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Seriously open to discussion? what happens when I turn the logic on will you still discuss?

Per my understanding, yes, religion causes wars. Going back to the Old Testament, you have an idea of God's chosen people who have a God given right to occupy a specific territory.

This is how Israel, after escape from Egypt, received their lands, according to the Bible (Old Testament).

Deut. 11:22 If you carefully observe all these commands I am giving you to follow—to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him and to hold fast to him— 23 then the Lord will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations larger and stronger than you. 24 Every place where you set your foot will be yours: Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the Euphrates River to the Mediterranean Sea. 25 No one will be able to stand against you. The Lord your God, as he promised you, will put the terror and fear of you on the whole land, wherever you go.

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did this sound like a description of fighting? or is what being described as people fleeing before they get there?

The text then goes on to say what the highlighted verses meant. They mean Israel was killing the inhabitants of the areas they took for themselves. And all of this at God's command!

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that is an outright lie
Israel’s Choice: Blessings or Curses
26 “Today I am giving you a choice. You may choose the blessing or the curse. 27 You will get the blessing if you listen and obey the commands of the Lord your God that I have told you today. 28 But you will get the curse if you refuse to listen and obey the commands of the Lord your God. So don’t stop living the way I command you today, and don’t follow other gods that you don’t know.

29 “The Lord your God will lead you to your land. You will soon go in and take that land. At that time you must go to the top of Mount Gerizim and read the blessings to the people from there. And then you must go to the top of Mount Ebal and read the curses to the people from there. 30 These mountains are on the other side of the Jordan River in the land of the Canaanites living in the Jordan Valley. These mountains are toward the west, not far from the oak trees of Moreh near the town of Gilgal. 31 You will go across the Jordan River. You will take the land that the Lord your God is giving you. This land will belong to you. When you are living in this land, 32 you must carefully obey all the laws and rules I give you today.

Secondly, look at God's command concerning an entire nation!

Deut. 25:19 When the Lord your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!

Perhaps a Christian can provide a definition, of what does it mean when one nation of people determines to kill another nation?

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wow what a cherry picking intellectually dishonest person you are. almost garbage.
let us read what you failed to mention:
7 “Remember what the Amalekites did to you when you were coming from Egypt. 18 The Amalekites did not respect God. They attacked you when you were weak and tired. They killed all your people who were slow and walking behind everyone else. 19 That is why you must destroy the memory of the Amalekites from the world. You will do this when you enter the land that the Lord your God is giving you. There he will give you rest from all the enemies around you. But do not forget to destroy the Amalekites!

wow.. So the Amalekites are basically road warrior taliban types who tried to wipe out israel unprovoked. meaning while the jews were escaping egypt and coming into the promised land these monster trying to murder and rob them.

but you would have us believe it is God/religion for the reason for this fight.

that is trash bro..

I could go on, but wanted to conclude with a more modern example.

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no... no you can't. In your best effort you failed to establish one instance of God issuing an example of unprovoked war.

George W Bush, 43rd President of the United States, started a war in Iraq in 2003. He justified his actions, in part, by claiming that God told him to end the tyranny in Iraq!George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'

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He smart guy tyranny has nothing to do with God or religion tyranny as a whole is against the US charter. we need no special permission to quell true tyranny in the world.
The offical position was to enter iraq and secure and destroy WMDs which we did (Google it before you parrot back 15 year old fake news) we did indeed find WMDs and a lot of them. most being torn down and shipped to syria which were to be use by the then unnamed ISIS/ islamic caliphate.

Looking back at the justifications for the invasion of Iraq, they were mostly (if now wholly) lies! But Bush never waivered. That's one 'feature' of a religious conviction.

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Hey smart guy ACTUALLY go back and look!!!! don't just say you went back and repeat the fake news of the day! GO BACK AND LOOK!!!
this first one cronicles all of the things ever used and found including 5000 55 gallon drums of yellow cake uranium.
Iraq and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia
2014 5000 chemical warheads found:
thepoliticalinsider.com/bombshell-new-york-times-reports-wmds-found-iraq/
In the book American snipeR the story of Chris kyle the highest kill count sniper in US history tells us he was apart of a seal team boarding a ship they herd had WMDs on it they open the hold and found 50lb bags oF concrete. so they were order to unload and check all the way down.
this took several days but at the bottom of this ship (which made dozen of similar runs already) where scud missiles with chemical war heads. they reported this and was told to restack the bags and let the ship go.

Edit: as these are Christian forums, I have focused on the Bible and Christianity. I believe Islam also causes wars.

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what was WWI cause by? do you even know? What was WWII started by? do you even know? what was the revolutionary started by? what was the war of 1812? what about the french indian wars? spanish american war? what about the korean war? lot of jesus arguing going on there you think? vietnam! that was a god war wasn't it?

Seems to me people fight wars because WE can't get along with one another, and are willing to use any excuse to kill those in whom we hate, even in the name of a God who commands you turn the other cheek.

Is there a modern example of a religious war? is there one in the last 4 or 500 years?

BigV said:

How did Israel get it's land? Who told Israel to attack and kill and exterminate its enemies?

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From that same post to which you responded -- "Canaan" is that land.
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What about Israel in Canaan?

Israel was instructed by the Lord to destroy cities and take land in Canaan, often to totally destroy cities, even the animals and buildings at times -- wiping out all traces of the culture of Child Sacrifice in those cities, so that the practice could be ended/removed.

29 The Lord your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” 31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."
Deuteronomy 12 NIV

Just like in the Flood, the culture had descended into an irreparable level of evil (as foretold in Genesis 15 NIV !), and the solution was remove all traces of the culture of evil, and attempt to set up a healthier culture.

Notice though that God will later deal with the souls that were removed from this temporary life in a very fair way:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
1 Peter 3 NIV
(here the peoples removed in the Flood seem to be an instance/example of those given a chance to turn and repent after this mortal life)

Generally, Romans 2:6 God "will repay each one according to his deeds."

Meaning that the innocent will have nothing against them, and the guilty that did not turn and repent will face the recompense for their evils. But God does have amazing Grace, to forgive any that would repent, through Christ. It's Justice and Mercy both.

BigV said:

Very well then, and the same can be said about Christians claiming that Islam is violent. Go to the source, right?

Based on my observation, Christians have NO issues with quoting and using the Old Testament when it suits them. For example, Christians often insist on keeping 10 Commandments on US Public buildings. And they justify wars based on Old Testament stories. Muslims don't have Testaments. So, Christians claim Islam is more violent, even as more wars are started by Christians. WWI was probably the most violent world war, and yet, virtually all parties fighting among themselves were Christians!

Perhaps the subject should be rephrased as... are Christians more or less violent vs Non-Christians?

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Look closer:

"In his book Mein Kampf and in public speeches prior to and in the early years of his rule, Hitler expressed himself as a Christian.[6][7][8] Hitler and the Nazi party promoted "Positive Christianity",[9] a movement which rejected most traditional Christian doctrines such as the divinity of Jesus, as well as Jewish elements such as the Old Testament.[10][11] In one widely quoted remark, he described Jesus as an "Aryan fighter" "
(!)
...
"In his private diaries, Goebbels wrote in April 1941 that though Hitler was "a fierce opponent" of the Vatican and Christianity, "he forbids me to leave the church. For tactical reasons."[14]
...
Although he was prepared to delay conflicts for political reasons, historians conclude that he ultimately intended the destruction of Christianity in Germany, or at least its distortion or subjugation to a Nazi outlook.[17]"

Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia

BigV said:

Well, that's very sweet of God then. I'm sure it's very comforting to the survivors.

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There is no other true hope for anyone, ultimately.

BigV said:

Perhaps Hitler was an Atheist even. I'm not arguing that he was, but lets presume that he was for the sake of our discussion. Overwhelmingly, the Nazi Germany's soldiers were Christian!

The German Churches and the Nazi State

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Dietrich Bonhoeffer would eventually give his life, opposing the nazi regime.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer (4 February 1906 – 9 April 1945) was a German pastor, theologian, anti-Nazi dissident, and key founding member of the Confessing Church. His writings on Christianity's role in the secular world have become widely influential...

...Bonhoeffer was known for his staunch resistance to Nazi dictatorship, including vocal opposition to Hitler's euthanasia program and genocidal persecution of the Jews.[2] He was arrested in April 1943 by the Gestapo and imprisoned at Tegel prison for one and a half years. Later, he was transferred to Flossenbürg concentration camp.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer - Wikipedia

The Confessing Church (German: Bekennende Kirche) was a movement within German Protestantism during Nazi Germany that arose in opposition to government-sponsored efforts to unify all Protestant churches into a single pro-Nazi Protestant Reich Church.[1][2]
Confessing Church - Wikipedia

We would wish that such real believers were the overwhelming majority. But if you read what Christ said in Matthew chapter 7, you find out that can never be, until He returns.

BigV said:

Perhaps Hitler was an Atheist even. I'm not arguing that he was, but lets presume that he was for the sake of our discussion. Overwhelmingly, the Nazi Germany's soldiers were Christian!

The German Churches and the Nazi State

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In addition to the direct opposition by some Christians, and others that hid and aided Jews, to help them escape...

Also, the general German population did not fully understand what was happening....

I learned more on this actually from a well done recreation film of the pivotal Nazi meeting in 1942 in which the real holocaust was finally chosen (or forced onto the larger Nazi group past the small circle planning it), and then secretly set in motion.
Here's an overview. It's worth watching!
Conspiracy (2001 film) - Wikipedia