Does religion cause war?

BigV · Feb 25, 2020

I liked the subject topic that was posted here:
Does religion cause war?

However, it's posted where only Christians can respond. I would like to open this for a bigger discussion.

Per my understanding, yes, religion causes wars. Going back to the Old Testament, you have an idea of God's chosen people who have a God given right to occupy a specific territory.

This is how Israel, after escape from Egypt, received their lands, according to the Bible (Old Testament).

Deut. 11:22 If you carefully observe all these commands I am giving you to follow—to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him and to hold fast to him— 23 then the Lord will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations larger and stronger than you. 24 Every place where you set your foot will be yours: Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the Euphrates River to the Mediterranean Sea. 25 No one will be able to stand against you. The Lord your God, as he promised you, will put the terror and fear of you on the whole land, wherever you go.

The text then goes on to say what the highlighted verses meant. They mean Israel was killing the inhabitants of the areas they took for themselves. And all of this at God's command!

Secondly, look at God's command concerning an entire nation!

Deut. 25:19 When the Lord your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!

Perhaps a Christian can provide a definition, of what does it mean when one nation of people determines to kill another nation?

I could go on, but wanted to conclude with a more modern example. George W Bush, 43rd President of the United States, started a war in Iraq in 2003. He justified his actions, in part, by claiming that God told him to end the tyranny in Iraq!

George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'

Looking back at the justifications for the invasion of Iraq, they were mostly (if now wholly) lies! But Bush never waivered. That's one 'feature' of a religious conviction.

Edit: as these are Christian forums, I have focused on the Bible and Christianity. I believe Islam also causes wars.

HTacianas · Feb 25, 2020

BigV said:
I liked the subject topic that was posted here:
Does religion cause war?

However, it's posted where only Christians can respond. I would like to open this for a bigger discussion.

Per my understanding, yes, religion causes wars. Going back to the Old Testament, you have an idea of God's chosen people who have a God given right to occupy a specific territory.

This is how Israel, after escape from Egypt, received their lands, according to the Bible (Old Testament).

Deut. 11:22 If you carefully observe all these commands I am giving you to follow—to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him and to hold fast to him— 23 then the Lord will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations larger and stronger than you. 24 Every place where you set your foot will be yours: Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the Euphrates River to the Mediterranean Sea. 25 No one will be able to stand against you. The Lord your God, as he promised you, will put the terror and fear of you on the whole land, wherever you go.

The text then goes on to say what the highlighted verses meant. They mean Israel was killing the inhabitants of the areas they took for themselves. And all of this at God's command!

Secondly, look at God's command concerning an entire nation!

Deut. 25:19 When the Lord your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!

Perhaps a Christian can provide a definition, of what does it mean when one nation of people determines to kill another nation?

I could go on, but wanted to conclude with a more modern example. George W Bush, 43rd President of the United States, started a war in Iraq in 2003. He justified his actions, in part, by claiming that God told him to end the tyranny in Iraq!

George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'

Looking back at the justifications for the invasion of Iraq, they were mostly (if now wholly) lies! But Bush never waivered. That's one 'feature' of a religious conviction.

Edit: as these are Christian forums, I have focused on the Bible and Christianity. I believe Islam also causes wars.

The "quotes" from George Bush in the article are false.

And the Christian bible does not encourage anyone to start wars.

BigV · Feb 25, 2020

HTacianas said:
The "quotes" from George Bush in the article are false.

So

Well, I provided a source for my claim. What's the source for your claim?
Regardless, I do remember W Bush, in a Republican Presidential debate, claiming that Jesus Christ was his favorite philosopher and yet, W Bush invaded Iraq based on lies.

(The history of US decisions prior to Iraq war of 2003 has been meticulously documented:

Lie by Lie: A Timeline of How We Got Into Iraq)

HTacianas said:
And the Christian bible does not encourage anyone to start wars.

Well, again, that is your claim, and you have ignored the OP. Christian Bible includes the Old Testament. Secondly, Christians are very adept at 'interpreting' the Bible how they see fit.

Did Jesus Teach Pacifism?

There are plenty of Christians fighting wars today and their conscience doesn't seem to bother them one bit.

jahel · Feb 25, 2020

I would just like to point out what God commanded at Jericho and the results at the city that followed. But people will believe what his-story wants them to believe no matter what eh.

A_Thinker · Feb 25, 2020

BigV said:
I liked the subject topic that was posted here:
Does religion cause war?

However, it's posted where only Christians can respond. I would like to open this for a bigger discussion.

Per my understanding, yes, religion causes wars. Going back to the Old Testament, you have an idea of God's chosen people who have a God given right to occupy a specific territory.

This is how Israel, after escape from Egypt, received their lands, according to the Bible (Old Testament).

Deut. 11:22 If you carefully observe all these commands I am giving you to follow—to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him and to hold fast to him— 23 then the Lord will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations larger and stronger than you. 24 Every place where you set your foot will be yours: Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the Euphrates River to the Mediterranean Sea. 25 No one will be able to stand against you. The Lord your God, as he promised you, will put the terror and fear of you on the whole land, wherever you go.

The text then goes on to say what the highlighted verses meant. They mean Israel was killing the inhabitants of the areas they took for themselves. And all of this at God's command!

Secondly, look at God's command concerning an entire nation!

Deut. 25:19 When the Lord your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!

Perhaps a Christian can provide a definition, of what does it mean when one nation of people determines to kill another nation?

I could go on, but wanted to conclude with a more modern example. George W Bush, 43rd President of the United States, started a war in Iraq in 2003. He justified his actions, in part, by claiming that God told him to end the tyranny in Iraq!

George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'

Looking back at the justifications for the invasion of Iraq, they were mostly (if now wholly) lies! But Bush never waivered. That's one 'feature' of a religious conviction.

Edit: as these are Christian forums, I have focused on the Bible and Christianity. I believe Islam also causes wars.

Your source posting cites religion as a cause in 7% of humankind's wars.

That leaves a lot of room for other causes, including land, natural resources, various human ideologies, qests for power and dominance, public and personal freedoms, personal and public honor, nationalism, public policy, etc.

Humans will fight over anything. Just watch any unsupervised playground ...

HTacianas · Feb 25, 2020

BigV said:
So

Well, I provided a source for my claim. What's the source for your claim?
Regardless, I do remember W Bush, in a Republican Presidential debate, claiming that Jesus Christ was his favorite philosopher and yet, W Bush invaded Iraq based on lies.

(The history of US decisions prior to Iraq war of 2003 has been meticulously documented:

Lie by Lie: A Timeline of How We Got Into Iraq)

Well, again, that is your claim, and you have ignored the OP. Christian Bible includes the Old Testament. Secondly, Christians are very adept at 'interpreting' the Bible how they see fit.

Did Jesus Teach Pacifism?

There are plenty of Christians fighting wars today and their conscience doesn't seem to bother them one bit.

The old testament directed the Jews to take Israel. And that was that.

You seemingly have a failure of logic. There are Christians fighting in wars. Their religion did not start the wars. Just as there are electricians fighting in wars. There is nothing in the National Electrical Code telling anyone to start a war.

You want to claim that there is a war and it was caused by Christianity, as if in the absence of Christianity the war would not exist. Now, you may have a point there but it's nothing you seem to understand.

A_Thinker · Feb 25, 2020

HTacianas said:
And the Christian bible does not encourage anyone to start wars.

It is more accurate to state that the New Testament (including the teachings of Jesus) do not encourage war-making ...

dzheremi · Feb 25, 2020

BigV said:
Edit: as these are Christian forums, I have focused on the Bible and Christianity. I believe Islam also causes wars.

That's funny, because apparently the only things you can come up with are from the Old Testament, which was written before the incarnation of Christ or the invention of Islam.

The Desiring God article makes some good points, and I don't personally believe that Jesus preached pacifism as is popularly understood (His own example included throwing people out of the temple, destroying fig trees, etc.), but the point is lost as usual on the atheist trying to apply it in an overly broad fashion. Instead of asking the question of what circumstances under which Christianity allows for the use of violence (as the Desiring God article points out by phrasing it as "(permitting) governments the right to use force to restrain and punish evil"), the question is mutated into "Does religion cause war?"

Well, yes, asked that way, religion does or at least can cause war. I think the notion of Christianity in particular causing war is the result of a mainly medieval European phenomenon, as it is my understanding that with the exception of the Northern Ireland conflict (which could just as easily be argued to be a result of other causes, but I bring it up here because I know it's the go-to example in the modern western world), the Roman Catholic and Protestant powers have not fought one another on those explicit terms (i.e., let's go kill/fight the people of the other church for being of the other church!) in centuries.

Putting Islam in an ex post facto edit like that is really kinda burying the lead, isn't it? Typical cowardice.

BigV · Feb 25, 2020

HTacianas said:
You seemingly have a failure of logic. There are Christians fighting in wars. Their religion did not start the wars. Just as there are electricians fighting in wars. There is nothing in the National Electrical Code telling anyone to start a war.

Did you even read the OP? I quoted a Christian, W Bush, claiming that God told him to start a war in Iraq and his conviction, that the 2003 war was the right thing to do has nothing to do with Christians or Electricians fighting in a war. His religion helped him start a war that was based on lies.

BigV · Feb 25, 2020

dzheremi said:
Putting Islam in an ex post facto edit like that is really kinda burying the lead, isn't it? Typical cowardice.

Most Muslims, like Most Christians are not war mongering. But American NeoCons, overwhelmingly Christians, are just as dangerous as Islamist extremists. I could argue they are more dangerous because they have access to nuclear weapons.

HTacianas · Feb 25, 2020

BigV said:
Did you even read the OP? I quoted a Christian, W Bush, claiming that God told him to start a war in Iraq and his conviction, that the 2003 war was the right thing to do has nothing to do with Christians or Electricians fighting in a war. His religion helped him start a war that was based on lies.

You quoted a story that says itself the "quotes" are dubious and unverified.

dzheremi · Feb 25, 2020

BigV said:
Most Muslims, like Most Christians are not war mongering. But American NeoCons, overwhelmingly Christians, are just as dangerous as Islamist extremists. I could argue they are more dangerous because they have access to nuclear weapons.

So maybe the problem is with American NeoCons, then, and you should've started this thread in the politics forum. Not being a NeoCon myself, I don't see any reason to defend whatever G.W. Bush thought was telling him to go to war in Iraq for. Even more to the point, the war in Iraq helped destroy my own Church's presence there (the Syriac Orthodox Church being a member of the Oriental Orthodox communion of which I am a member, and present in what is now Iraq since even before the 'Orientals' were first separated from the Greco-Roman/Western churches in the wake of Chalcedon, Mor Behnam, his sister Sarah and the forty martyrs and many, many others bearing witness). So to hell with the war, and shame on those who started it or justified it. Let them take the places of the Christians they have driven out with their stupidity. I bet they would change their tune right quick in that circumstance.

Here is what HG Bishop Nicodemus Daoud Sharaf, Syriac Orthodox bishop of Mosul at the time of the Christian expulsion from that city by ISIS (marking the first time there was no liturgy in Mosul in 1,600 years) has to say about the kinds of lousy justifications given by western 'Christians' for destroying the Church in Iraq:

This is the only Christian viewpoint I give any credence, because it's his country, his bishopric, and his people who have to suffer as a result of what Bush & Co. did. I don't care for any atheist or western Christian spinning of this situation this way or that way, particularly to try to score a cheap and ignorant point against Christianity itself. Go away with that nonsense.

BigV · Feb 25, 2020

HTacianas said:
You quoted a story that says itself the "quotes" are dubious and unverified.

Bush: God Told Me to Invade Iraq

He told Bob Woodward - whose 2004 book, Plan of Attack, is the definitive account of the administration's road to war in Iraq - that after giving the order to invade in March 2003, he walked in the White House garden, praying "that our troops be safe, be protected by the Almighty". As he went into this critical period, he told Mr Woodward, "I was praying for strength to do the Lord's will.

"I'm surely not going to justify war based upon God. Understand that. Nevertheless, in my case, I pray that I will be as good a messenger of His will as possible. And then of course, I pray for forgiveness."

Here is another source. Also not verified? It contains a typical political double-speak. On the one hand, he is doing the Lord's will, which includes Iraq invasion, on the other, he is "surely" not going to justify war based on God". But what is doing Lord's will then, which includes invading Iraq?

W's support for Jesus Christ as the greatest philosopher while starting Iraq war more than confirms the quote for me. And he remains a supporter of this war probably to this day. All while having the 'strength to do Lord's will'!

What is George W. Bush's only regret over invading Iraq?

Halbhh · Feb 25, 2020

BigV said:
I liked the subject topic that was posted here:
Does religion cause war?

However, it's posted where only Christians can respond. I would like to open this for a bigger discussion.

Per my understanding, yes, religion causes wars. Going back to the Old Testament, you have an idea of God's chosen people who have a God given right to occupy a specific territory.

This is how Israel, after escape from Egypt, received their lands, according to the Bible (Old Testament).

Deut. 11:22 If you carefully observe all these commands I am giving you to follow—to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him and to hold fast to him— 23 then the Lord will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations larger and stronger than you. 24 Every place where you set your foot will be yours: Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the Euphrates River to the Mediterranean Sea. 25 No one will be able to stand against you. The Lord your God, as he promised you, will put the terror and fear of you on the whole land, wherever you go.

The text then goes on to say what the highlighted verses meant. They mean Israel was killing the inhabitants of the areas they took for themselves. And all of this at God's command!

Secondly, look at God's command concerning an entire nation!

Deut. 25:19 When the Lord your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!

Perhaps a Christian can provide a definition, of what does it mean when one nation of people determines to kill another nation?

I could go on, but wanted to conclude with a more modern example. George W Bush, 43rd President of the United States, started a war in Iraq in 2003. He justified his actions, in part, by claiming that God told him to end the tyranny in Iraq!

George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'

Looking back at the justifications for the invasion of Iraq, they were mostly (if now wholly) lies! But Bush never waivered. That's one 'feature' of a religious conviction.

Edit: as these are Christian forums, I have focused on the Bible and Christianity. I believe Islam also causes wars.

For War in general -- is religion the general cause of war?

Answer: No, religion isn't the primary cause of war, though it is sometimes a rationale used to energize tribalism at times.

Human nature seems to be the general cause of war -- we are aggressive and territorial, and form tribal associations like nations, ethnic groups, etc., usually to take land or resources.

Because we are tribal in mentality, thinking of ourselves as belonging to a group, with identity.

The most common motive for war seems to be territory (e.g. Russia taking the Crimea recently), but other fundamental motives include raiding to steal resources (food, goods, valuables), and ethnic cleansing (e.g., in recent times, Rwanda, Kosovo stand out), and ideology (e.g. Cambodia).

------------

What about Israel in Canaan?

Israel was instructed to destroy cities and take land in Canaan, often to totally destroy cities, even the animals and buildings at times -- wiping out all traces of the culture of Child Sacrifice in those cities, so that the practice could be ended/removed.

29 The Lord your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” 31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."
Deuteronomy 12 NIV

Just like in the Flood, the culture had descended into an irreparable level of evil (as foretold in Genesis 15 NIV !), and the solution was remove all traces of the evil, and attempt to set up a healthier culture.

Notice though that God will later deal with the souls that were removed from this temporary life in a very fair way:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
1 Peter 3 NIV
(here the peoples removed in the Flood seem to be an instance/example of those given a chance to turn and repent after this mortal life)

Halbhh · Feb 25, 2020

A very good general tip is never to rely on an anti-Christian source for a list of supposed wrongful things in the bible.

It would be like relying on Rush Limbaugh to know about Obama -- not a very good source to learn much in a full, accurate way.

BigV · Feb 25, 2020

Halbhh said:
For War in general -- is religion the general cause of war?

Answer: No, religion isn't the primary cause of war, though it is sometimes a rationale used to energize tribalism at times.

How did Israel get it's land? Who told Israel to attack and kill and exterminate its enemies?

BNR32FAN · Feb 25, 2020

BigV said:
How did Israel get it's land? Who told Israel to attack and kill and exterminate its enemies?

God did, now the question is why did God tell them to attack these people? The answer is because they were immoral and ungodly. If they had worshipped God they wouldn’t have been killed. So ultimately these wars were the result of these people’s own disobedience and immorality.

BigV · Feb 25, 2020

Halbhh said:
A very good general tip is never to rely on an anti-Christian source for a list of supposed wrongful things in the bible.

Very well then, and the same can be said about Christians claiming that Islam is violent. Go to the source, right?

Based on my observation, Christians have NO issues with quoting and using the Old Testament when it suits them. For example, Christians often insist on keeping 10 Commandments on US Public buildings. And they justify wars based on Old Testament stories. Muslims don't have Testaments. So, Christians claim Islam is more violent, even as more wars are started by Christians. WWI was probably the most violent world war, and yet, virtually all parties fighting among themselves were Christians!

Perhaps the subject should be rephrased as... are Christians more or less violent vs Non-Christians?

BigV · Feb 25, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
God did, now the question is why did God tell them to attack these people? The answer is because they were immoral and ungodly. If they had worshipped God they wouldn’t have been killed. So ultimately these wars were the result of these people’s own disobedience and immorality.

Ah.. the irony. This is justification Islamists use today to attack Westerners!

BNR32FAN · Feb 25, 2020

BigV said:
Ah.. the irony. This is justification Islamists use today to attack Westerners!

True, but I don’t see any pillars of fire leading them around everywhere they go.

Does religion cause war?

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

returned to old acct

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

Junior Member

Everything You say is Life to me

Everything You say is Life to me

Junior Member

He’s a Way of life

Junior Member

Junior Member

He’s a Way of life

Similar threads