“Sanctify Them”

frumanchu · Feb 24, 2020

Phil W said:
Sinners were not reborn of God's seed.
They are not yet in the book of life.
They are not going to be saved unless they turn from sin, etc.

How about a straight answer, yes or no? You seem to be saying no, implying that if I sin I couldn't possibly have been saved to begin with...but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 24, 2020

Phil W said:
Absolutely not.

All believers "keep His commandments".
As folks reborn of Godly seed, and with a new divine nature, obedience is a given.
Natural...yes.
Easy...not always.

Then it can be a process for some believers to put away sin. Just read 2 Corinthians 7:1. It also takes time for believers to study to show themselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15), whereby they are able to even know about all of God's commands in the New Testament. This is why Sanctification is a process. Nobody just starts out being saved knowing about all of 400 explicit commands. They need to study and know what they mean and they need to ask for God's help in obeying them. You make it look like believers are "super holy men" the instant they get saved. This is not the case. Even the great men of the faith in the New Testament made mistakes. They need to confess and forsake sin. Sure, they did not live in an extremely sinful debauchery lifestyle, but they did stumble and they did need to learn to put away certain things out of their life. This is why Sanctification is progressive.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 24, 2020

Surely there is an aspect of God setting us a part (sanctifying us or making us holy) when we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus. This is a cleansing of past sin and our old life. But this does not mean we can sin and still be saved. It does not mean we are still holy if we sin. Living holy takes time to apply to our lives as we mature in Christ. Sanctification is progressive for most believers. For we know that many of the men of God in the New Testament were not perfect and they needed to learn and grow and walk in a more holy way that God desired of them. After they were saved by God's grace, they needed to continue with God and His Sanctification Process in living more holy and righteous. Progressive Sanctification is not saying that we will always sin in this life or always have faults of character. Progressive Sanctification is a process for the believer to in time overcome sin and to live holy as God intended them to do. But it is not always an overnight process. Many times it takes time for believers to put away the sin and darkness out of their lives. Romans 8:13, and 2 Corinthians 7:1 both talk about this.

Phil W · Feb 24, 2020

WordSword said:
First, the sins of one reborn are not the same as before because they are not "willful" (Heb 10:26). The sin is mostly restricted to thought instead of action or "finished" (Jam 1:15).

You are confusing sin with temptation.
Temptations don't end at conversion, they are just not acted on by the reborn.
BTW, all sin is willful.

Also, sinful thoughts continue to lessen in repetition (frequency) and depth of depravity. But the issue is they are not of our choosing as before (again, not willingly), and this is where it's a heart issue, which is most important as is a description of a "captive" (Rom 7:23), being held against his will.
Since we still retain the sin nature (old man) even these type of sins cannot be avoided.

You must have missed Rom 6:6, which says..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
The old nature is as dead as the old man-body of sin after it is crucified with Christ.

I believe this is why Scripture does not relate those reborn as a sinner (which isn't just one who sins), because sin is no longer the will and desire of the believer (Phil 2:13). Though the sin nature is still in us (Rom 7:17, 20) we "are not in" it (Rom 8:9).

Scripture doesn't refer to the reborn as sinners because the reborn cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil's seed. (1 John 3:9)

Phil W · Feb 24, 2020

Phil W said:
Mistaken duplicate...
Sorry.

Phil W · Feb 24, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Then it can be a process for some believers to put away sin. Just read 2 Corinthians 7:1. It also takes time for believers to study to show themselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15), whereby they are able to even know about all of God's commands in the New Testament. This is why Sanctification is a process. Nobody just starts out being saved knowing about all of 400 explicit commands. They need to study and know what they mean and they need to ask for God's help in obeying them. You make it look like believers are "super holy men" the instant they get saved. This is not the case. Even the great men of the faith in the New Testament made mistakes. They need to confess and forsake sin. Sure, they did not live in an extremely sinful debauchery lifestyle, but they did stumble and they did need to learn to put away certain things out of their life. This is why Sanctification is progressive.

It isn't a process for sanctification while it is also a process for continued sinning.
We put away sin by repenting of sin, and the "process" is finished.
BTW, there are two commandments...love God above all else and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
As for "starting out holy", how can one born of God be unholy?
Did Jesus need a "process" to be a Son to God?

Bible Highlighter · Feb 24, 2020

Phil W said:
It isn't a process for sanctification while it is also a process for continued sinning.
We put away sin by repenting of sin, and the "process" is finished.
BTW, there are two commandments...love God above all else and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
As for "starting out holy", how can one born of God be unholy?
Did Jesus need a "process" to be a Son to God?

While I have my own list of NT commands I am currently working on (appx. 400 explicit commands) others have counted a lot more. Here is one example:

https://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201407/r1308729_17984331.pdf

Do you obey all these?

frumanchu · Feb 24, 2020

Phil W said:
Temptations don't end at conversion, they are just not acted on by the reborn.

The Apostle Paul says otherwise, and what a horrible burden you place on the believer, robbing them of their salvation at the slightest sin.

You must have missed Rom 6:6, which says..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
The old nature is as dead as the old man-body of sin after it is crucified with Christ.

You fail to understand that our salvation in Christ doesn't immediately or fully eradicate our sin nature, it simply frees us from slavery to it. Before our conversion, we could do nothing righteous. Now we are freed from our slavery to sin and able to pursue righteousness. That we are able to do so does not mean we no longer sin; to say otherwise is to return the believer to being a slave to the very law that condemned him in the first place.

Scripture doesn't refer to the reborn as sinners because the reborn cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil's seed. (1 John 3:9)

Thanks be to God we will not be judged by the yoke you would place upon us. If we must remain completely sinless to be saved, we are all lost (yourself included).

frumanchu · Feb 24, 2020

Let me put this out there again:

Temptations don't end at conversion, they are just not acted on by the reborn.

As each of you examines themselves and the Scriptures, do you truly believe that as a Christian you do not act on any temptations? That if you do act on even the slightest temptation, you are no longer reborn and no longer saved?

WordSword · Feb 24, 2020

Phil W said:
You are confusing sin with temptation.
Temptations don't end at conversion, they are just not acted on by the reborn.
BTW, all sin is willful.

Hi, and I've been appreciating your input and comments. Many believers have a difference of opinion on the subject of "temptation," which I think James 1:13-15 discourses the best, and some clarifications from us will let each know what we mean here. First I want to make it clear that it's my understanding that the incurring of sin's guilt is not from sinning but from possessing the sin nature. Sinning merely manifests its source (old man), and is from where the guilt is derived. So, hypothetically even if one could live without sinning (impossible according to what I believe Scripture teaches), the condemnation would yet remain.

Thankfully we are delivered from the guilt of sin but I think this is as far as I can go about what I think James teaches concerning "temptation" (1:13-15), because I don't believe the sin nature is eradicated as some are of the notion.

God's blessing to your Family!

Phil W · Feb 24, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
While I have my own list of NT commands I am currently working on (appx. 400 explicit commands) others have counted a lot more. Here is one example:

https://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201407/r1308729_17984331.pdf

Do you obey all these?

Yes. I obey all of them by loving God above all else and my neighbor as myself.

Phil W · Feb 24, 2020

frumanchu said:
The Apostle Paul says otherwise, and what a horrible burden you place on the believer, robbing them of their salvation at the slightest sin.

Show me where he said the reborn act on temptation...or commit sin.

You fail to understand that our salvation in Christ doesn't immediately or fully eradicate our sin nature, it simply frees us from slavery to it. Before our conversion, we could do nothing righteous. Now we are freed from our slavery to sin and able to pursue righteousness. That we are able to do so does not mean we no longer sin; to say otherwise is to return the believer to being a slave to the very law that condemned him in the first place.

You are mistaken.
It is written..."Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)
And..."For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)

Thanks be to God we will not be judged by the yoke you would place upon us. If we must remain completely sinless to be saved, we are all lost (yourself included).

You get to be sinless by your immersion into Christ.
Is that really some heinous chore for you?
Jesus' yoke is lighter that what you bear now.

Phil W · Feb 24, 2020

frumanchu said:
Let me put this out there again:

As each of you examines themselves and the Scriptures, do you truly believe that as a Christian you do not act on any temptations? That if you do act on even the slightest temptation, you are no longer reborn and no longer saved?

That is correct.
That which is born of God cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.
Grape vines cannot bear figs.

Who is your Sire?

Phil W · Feb 24, 2020

WordSword said:
Hi, and I've been appreciating your input and comments. Many believers have a difference of opinion on the subject of "temptation," which I think James 1:13-15 discourses the best, and some clarifications from us will let each know what we mean here.

First lets look at the James scripture..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15)
Compare that to..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Without lusts, there can be no sin.
It is those who are not Christ's that still act on lusts.

First I want to make it clear that it's my understanding that the incurring of sin's guilt is not from sinning but from possessing the sin nature. Sinning merely manifests its source (old man), and is from where the guilt is derived. So, hypothetically even if one could live without sinning (impossible according to what I believe Scripture teaches), the condemnation would yet remain.

Where did you get that understanding from?
How can a new creature still have anything from the crucified and buried the old man?

Thankfully we are delivered from the guilt of sin but I think this is as far as I can go about what I think James teaches concerning "temptation" (1:13-15), because I don't believe the sin nature is eradicated as some are of the notion.

If you are delivered from the guilt of your wickedness, why are you even here?
Fig trees cannot bear grapes, but you infer God's seed can bring forth the fruit of the devil, and without guilt.
That isn't what Jesus died to accomplish.

WordSword · Feb 24, 2020

Phil W said:
First lets look at the James scripture..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15)
Compare that to..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Without lusts, there can be no sin.
It is those who are not Christ's that still act on lusts.

Where did you get that understanding from?
How can a new creature still have anything from the crucified and buried the old man?

If you are delivered from the guilt of your wickedness, why are you even here?
Fig trees cannot bear grapes, but you infer God's seed can bring forth the fruit of the devil, and without guilt.
That isn't what Jesus died to accomplish.

It's clear we have varying opinions about the old man, and of course that's okay!

Phil W · Feb 24, 2020

WordSword said:
It's clear we have varying opinions about the old man, and of course that's okay!

It isn't OK if one is searching for a way to please God in every part of his life.
If the old man is, contrary to Rom 6:6 and Gal 5:24, still alive, we have no hope of pleasing God.
We would still be unreborn members of the OT.

WordSword · Feb 25, 2020

Phil W said:
It isn't OK if one is searching for a way to please God in every part of his life.
If the old man is, contrary to Rom 6:6 and Gal 5:24, still alive, we have no hope of pleasing God.
We would still be unreborn members of the OT.

Though we differ in our understanding, I believe we are the same concerning putting God first in seeking to understand and walk in all His truths. God be blessed!

frumanchu · Feb 25, 2020

Phil W said:
Yes. I obey all of them by loving God above all else and my neighbor as myself.

No, you don't get off that easy. Either you actually SPECIFICALLY obey them or you don't. If you say you obey X by doing Y then you have no real argument against the Scriptural truth that we are justified and saved by the imputed righteousness of Christ and not by our obedience.

If you say you have no sin, you are deceiving yourself. 1 John 1:8

Phil W said:
Show me where he said the reborn act on temptation...or commit sin.

Rom 7, 1 John 1:8 for starters. Rebirth is not something we constantly lose and regain. Show me in Scripture where men are reborn multiple times.

You are mistaken.
It is written..."Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)
And..."For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)

Free FROM sin, not free OF sin. We are freed from the bondage to sin whereby we could do nothing righteous. We are freed FROM sin TO a pursuit of righteousness in Christ. Neither of those verses say that sin is fully and completely eradicated in us this side of glory.

You get to be sinless by your immersion into Christ.

In terms of our justification in God's sight, yes. In terms of our actual thoughts and actions...no, and you deceive yourself to think otherwise. You either have to so lower the bar as to be able to think yourself achieving perfect sinlessness, or you simply turn a blind eye to the reality of the ongoing effect of the sin nature. In thinking you are completely free of it, you are actually resisting the Spirit which works through the course of our lives to continually convict us of sin and bring us into conformity with Christ.

Is that really some heinous chore for you?
Jesus' yoke is lighter that what you bear now.

I'm not the one here burdening men with the weight of being actually sinless in your thoughts and actions, telling them if they have sinned that they cannot possibly be reborn because succumbing to any temptation proves it.

Phil W said:
That is correct.
That which is born of God cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.
Grape vines cannot bear figs.

Again, I leave it to the rest of you to judge according to the Scriptures and the Spirit. This man says your salvation in Christ is ripped from you at even the slightest sin.

Lest I not be clear, I am by no means advocating anti-nomianism or a passive, carefree attitude towards sin. As Dr. Michael Horton put it, "Faith is not merely a passive clinging to our justification (a one-time event), but rather a militant faith that acts, that seeks sanctification—becoming more like Christ." I struggle daily against sin because I know it grieves God and I seek to be more like His Son. But I also take comfort in times of difficulty knowing that I am saved purely and solely on the basis of the work of Christ and not on my own merit or obedience.

Taking leave of this thread now as I cannot abide such a destructive teaching.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 25, 2020

Phil W said:
Yes. I obey all of them by loving God above all else and my neighbor as myself.

What verse or passage tells you that?

Bible Highlighter · Feb 25, 2020

frumanchu said:
No, you don't get off that easy. Either you actually SPECIFICALLY obey them or you don't. If you say you obey X by doing Y then you have no real argument against the Scriptural truth that we are justified and saved by the imputed righteousness of Christ and not by our obedience.

If you say you have no sin, you are deceiving yourself. 1 John 1:8

Rom 7, 1 John 1:8 for starters. Rebirth is not something we constantly lose and regain. Show me in Scripture where men are reborn multiple times.

Free FROM sin, not free OF sin. We are freed from the bondage to sin whereby we could do nothing righteous. We are freed FROM sin TO a pursuit of righteousness in Christ. Neither of those verses say that sin is fully and completely eradicated in us this side of glory.

In terms of our justification in God's sight, yes. In terms of our actual thoughts and actions...no, and you deceive yourself to think otherwise. You either have to so lower the bar as to be able to think yourself achieving perfect sinlessness, or you simply turn a blind eye to the reality of the ongoing effect of the sin nature. In thinking you are completely free of it, you are actually resisting the Spirit which works through the course of our lives to continually convict us of sin and bring us into conformity with Christ.

I'm not the one here burdening men with the weight of being actually sinless in your thoughts and actions, telling them if they have sinned that they cannot possibly be reborn because succumbing to any temptation proves it.

Again, I leave it to the rest of you to judge according to the Scriptures and the Spirit. This man says your salvation in Christ is ripped from you at even the slightest sin.

Lest I not be clear, I am by no means advocating anti-nomianism or a passive, carefree attitude towards sin. As Dr. Michael Horton put it, "Faith is not merely a passive clinging to our justification (a one-time event), but rather a militant faith that acts, that seeks sanctification—becoming more like Christ." I struggle daily against sin because I know it grieves God and I seek to be more like His Son. But I also take comfort in times of difficulty knowing that I am saved purely and solely on the basis of the work of Christ and not on my own merit or obedience.

Taking leave of this thread now as I cannot abide such a destructive teaching.

Then why did Jesus and His followers warn against how sin can destroy our souls if all we have to do is just believe on Jesus alone for salvation?

The Bible teaches that certain sins can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

Side Note:

I am not saying we do not need God's grace. I believe we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. God's grace is the foundation of our faith and salvation. But God's grace is not a safety net to sin, either (Not even in the most slightest way). Matthew 7:23, and Matthew 13:41-41 says that those believers who work iniquity or sin are going to be cast out. Jude 1:4 warns against turning God's grace into a license for immorality. Some do this to the extreme, and some do this ever so subtly. Both are wrong. Remember, it only took one sin by Adam to cause the fall of all of mankind.

“Sanctify Them”

God's justice does not demand second chances

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

God's justice does not demand second chances

God's justice does not demand second chances

Well-Known Member

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God's justice does not demand second chances

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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