Salvation during the tribulation

Ricky M · Feb 23, 2020

Serenity Armstead said:
Thats not necessarily true because it says that fornicators, adulteres, homosexuals, thieves, idolaters etc will *Not enter into the kingdom of heaven so theres no way ti enter into heaven and still be doing that stuff which leaves me to believe that you will be left behind and have no chance at redemption

The Bible lists a whole lot of sins that separate us from God. But it also says Jesus paid the price for those sins and if we acknowledge that we will enter the kingdom of God despite them.

Ricky M · Feb 23, 2020

summerville said:
The tribulation is in the past.

Serenity Armstead said:
the tribulation is about to happen very very soon

God offered the Messiah to the Jews. They rejected Him, and suffered tribulation for it in 70 AD.

God then offered the Christ to the world. The world is rejecting Him, and will suffer tribulation for it soon.

God's word is eternal. One manifestation does not render it moot.

summerville · Feb 23, 2020

Ricky M said:
God offered the Messiah to the Jews. They rejected Him, and suffered tribulation for it in 70 AD.

God then offered the Christ to the world. The world is rejecting Him, and will suffer tribulation for it soon.

God's word is eternal. One manifestation does not render it moot.

I can't find anything in scripture about a second tribulation.

The Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21) - Ecclesia
ecclesia.org/Truth/mat05.html
John Walvoord, a leading spokesman for Dispensationalism, says this, "The great tribulation, is a specific period of time beginning with the abomination of desolation (We saw that this began in 67 AD when Cestius Gallus, the Roman general, laid siege to Jerusalem) and …

Cis.jd · Feb 24, 2020

Serenity Armstead said:
I know but im talking about the people who kept fornicating and never repented for their sins or the homosexuals who never repented or the adulterers and etc that didnt repent for their sins and they get left behind... They wont have a chance to repent again during the tribulation because the tribulation is only for those who have never recieved jesus not the ones who did recieve jesus but kept on sinning..?

There are christians who are bigger sinners and much horrible people than homosexuals. If this "left behind" belief turns out to be true, I wouldn't be surprised that there are more "sinners" taken up than christians themselves.

Saint JOHN · Feb 24, 2020

No such thing as a Rupture "THEORY" !! only one return of Jesus Christ (soon) , make sure your IN NOW..

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

talking to his disciples ! warning NOT to take peoples word they follow him !!.. ALL these (package deal !) are a display of CORRECT receiving of the HOLY GHOST !! you cant get this without him !!

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

when you receive him..HIS WAY !!

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

repent ( get rid of your own ideas !! give God a fair go with an open mind !!… baby's cant !!)
baptise ( greek word means dip ,immerse etc symbol of burial )

this is your bit !!… now if you do it right as above !...Gods promised response...
receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.( with the miraculous signs to attest your in !)

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

most people think believing is to acknowledge God is or Jesus Christ is etc..
I acknowledge there is a president in the united states ! does that make me automatic American citizen !?
why use the same lame logic with eternal life !!!!!!!!!!!!!??

Jamdoc · Feb 24, 2020

Serenity Armstead said:
Basically if your a christian & you get left behind that means your not going to heaven right?because God gave you a chance to get it right before he came back...?

There are 2 Witnesses that can breathe fire from their mouths in Jerusalem and 144,000 people protected by God running around the world while the sky is raining fire the seas are turning to blood and all the other 7 vials and 7 trumpets of God's wrath are going on.

What do you think they will be doing during that time?
I at least like to believe that they will be reaching people with the gospel and saving them.
My pastor likes to say "God is does not just give a second chance, God gives another chance." That is how patient God can be, raining his wrath on the world but still giving an opportunity for people to repent and turn to Jesus.

Jamdoc · Feb 24, 2020

summerville said:
I can't find anything in scripture about a second tribulation.

The Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21) - Ecclesia
ecclesia.org/Truth/mat05.html
John Walvoord, a leading spokesman for Dispensationalism, says this, "The great tribulation, is a specific period of time beginning with the abomination of desolation (We saw that this began in 67 AD when Cestius Gallus, the Roman general, laid siege to Jerusalem) and …

Know what you can find in scripture? The great white throne of judgement
the end of sin
a new heavens and a new earth
We're still on the old one, so the great tribulation has not happened yet.

summerville · Feb 24, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Know what you can find in scripture? The great white throne of judgement
the end of sin
a new heavens and a new earth
We're still on the old one, so the great tribulation has not happened yet.

The new age began with the destruction of the Temple and the end of animal sacrifices.. Their world did change.

Jamdoc · Feb 24, 2020

summerville said:
The new age began with the destruction of the Temple and the end of animal sacrifices.. Their world did change.

and there's still sin and there's still death. That's a no sir.
We're closer to the great tribulation now than they were then.

summerville · Feb 24, 2020

Jamdoc said:
and there's still sin and there's still death. That's a no sir.
We're closer to the great tribulation now than they were then.

Why do you think Jesus told them that when they see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of in Daniel they should flee to the mountains? And why do you think the new Christians in Jerusalem fled to Pella in 66 AD?

Was that a lie? Were Paul, Jesus and all the disciples wrong?

summerville · Feb 24, 2020

The Righterzpen said:
There are multiple views on eschatology.

I personally find the "rapture" to happen on the dawn of Judgement Day to be the most Biblical.

Jesus said when you see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of in Daniel flee to the mountains. The new Christians fled to Pella in 66 AD. That's Biblical.

The Righterzpen · Feb 24, 2020

Abomination that makes desolate:

The "abomination that makes desolate" was the construction of a false religion that replaced the true Messiah with this false religion.

Daniel 8
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

…

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Herod the Great:
These two passages are somewhat parallel to each other. This "king" and "little horn" are Herod the Great. Herod the Great was of Greek ancestry, although he really wanted to believe he was the Messiah (and he wanted other people to believe he was the Messiah too).

He magnifies himself against the "Prince of the Host" and against the "Prince of Princes". the Prince of the Host and the Prince of Princes is Jesus Christ.

By him (King Herod) the "daily sacrifice is taken away" and "the sanctuary is cast down". He also sets up the "transgression of desolation" and is "broken without hand". This transpires in the course of "2300 days" and there are "1290 days" between the sacrifice taken away and the abomination set up.

So, what does this all mean?

Herod became client king of Judea in (elected by the Roman senate) in 40 BC. In 19 BC, he began reconstruction on the temple. He tore the entire reconstructed Solomon's temple down and totally rebuilt it. It was rededicated 10 years later in 9 BC; although we don't know when, we know it was before Passover.

Around about Passover of 9 BC (or 8 BC - depending on which calendar we are talking about - the "sacred" or the "secular"; because these calendars started 6 months apart) comes John the Baptist's father "in the course of Abia". (End of March) July of that year, John is conceived. Six months later, Jesus is conceived. About Passover of 8 BC, John is born. Six months later; (which would have been right after the secular new year of 7 BC) during the feast of tabernacles, Jesus is born. (End of September.)

Joseph, Mary and Jesus stay in Bethlehem for 2 years. The Magi show up probably around the fall of 5 BC. Mary and Joseph take Jesus to Egypt. Herod dies in the spring of 4 BC. They return from Egypt in the summer time of 3 BC.

The time span this takes place in is 2300 days. I.E. - 6 years and 4 months.

Now; the first communication from God in 400 plus years, comes to John the Baptist's father, Zechariah while he's in the temple. (We'll say Passover of 8 BC because we'll use the sacred calendar. This would have been the beginning of the year.) Roughly a year later John is born. 1.5 years from the angel coming to Zechariah, Jesus is born. 2 years after Jesus is born; Herod kills the babies in Bethlehem.

This time span is 1290 days. I.E. - 3.5 years. (Daniel 12)

So what does "take away the daily sacrifice" and "set up the abomination that causes desolate" mean?

First off, we have to define terms. The word "sacrifice" is not in the Hebrew. "Daily" in this passage is best translated "continuous" or "ceaseless". "Take away" means to "magnify". I have no idea why they translated these verses the way that they did.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the Prince of the host, and by him the ceaseless exaltation and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the ceaseless by reason of transgression, and it (the host) cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake. How long shall be the vision concerning the ceaseless and the transgression of desolation, to give both the Holy One and the host (army) to be trodden under foot?

Now this hearkens to Jesus making reference to "destroy this temple and I'll raise it on the 3rd day". He wasn't talking about a building, he was talking about his body.

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be vindicated.

Jesus was "vindicated" of Herod the Great, when He returned from Egypt.

Now looking at this translation, it makes a whole lot more contextual sense. "Daily sacrifice" is a poor translation because Herod didn't take away the daily sacrifice, as was related to animal sacrifices; God took that away as soon as the Messiah was conceived; because He was the final sacrifice.

So, moving on from Jesus's birth to Herod trying to kill Him when He was two; this is where the "abomination that makes desolate" was set up. The first announcement that the Messiah was coming, was made by the angel when he appeared to John the Baptist's father. 3.5 years later, the coming of the Magi announces to the nation that the "King of the Jews" is born.

This makes contextual sense and fits into the 1290 day, as well as the 2300 day time table(s); both connected to the same king who "understands dark sayings".

The Righterzpen · Feb 24, 2020

The Great Tribulation:

Now I'm giving you fair warning here - it's not likely you have ever heard this explanation any place else; but it has totally come out of comparing Bible verses to each other.
Genesis 2:7
Exodus 12
Pslam 104:29
Jeremiah 25:15-16
Jeremiah 30
Daniel 9:27
Jonah 2:2
Matthew 24:6-13
Matthew 24:22&29, Mark 13:20&24
Luke 13:32
Luke 22:43
Luke 23:45
John 12:1-3
John 12:29&31
John 18:1&6
Revelation 20:1-3

John 12:1-3 - Mary (Lazarus's sister) anoints Jesus's feet "6 days before the Passover". Jesus says to Judas: "Leave her alone, against the day of my burial she has kept this." That "time clue" is important; keep it in the back of your head!

Daniel 9:27 "confirm the covenant for a week". From the time Mary anoints Jesus's feet to the day of the crucifixion is "one week". This happens Thursday after sundown (which would have commenced Friday. This is the start of "the great tribulation".

Friday - I don't think the Scriptures tell us specifically what Jesus did Friday day. (Probably preached in the temple.)

Saturday - Sabbath.

Sunday - Triumphant entry into Jerusalem.

Monday - Preached in the temple. Jesus tells a pharisee who comes to Him to warn Him that Herod wants to kill Him. Jesus says "Tell that fox: Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected." The "third day" is the commencement of Wednesday.

The word "perfected" here is kind of a weird word. It literally means "to come to the fullness of extension" and is usually used in context of conceiving children. We'd use the world "climax". So Jesus "comes to His climax" which in context of this verse he's referring to casting out devils, doing cures and preaching.

Again though, go back to Daniel 9:27. "the middle of the week" is "Messiah cut off".

Tuesday - Preaches in the temple. Leaves the temple Tuesday before sundown. Jesus and disciples are having a conversation about the temple being destroyed.

Thunder is heard (John 12:29). Jesus explains to them what that thunder is. (John 12:31) Satan has been cast out of heaven. (Revelation 20:1-3)

From here Jesus goes to Bethany to dinner at the house of Simon the leper. (Since we are after sundown - we are now into Wednesday) While He's eating an anonymous woman pours a jar of oil over His head. Again He tells the disciples: "She's done this for my burial". (Matthew 24:6-13)

This is the commencement of the "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth". We know this because exactly 3 / 24 hour periods later - Jesus is dead!

This is also the commencement of the "middle of the weeK" when the Messiah is cut off.

Wednesday - That night Jesus washes the disciples feet and spends much of the rest of the night explaining to them what will happen to Him.

Thursday - They prepare for the passover Thursday morning. Eat it in the upper room Thursday night. They leave the building and go to the "garden" near a brook Cedron; (John 18:1) which is in the Mt. of Olives but is not "Gethsemane".

This is the first attempt to arrest Jesus. A small band come and ask for Jesus. He says. "I am" and they all fall over backwards. (John 18:6) This is one of 4 places in the Scripture that speak of people "falling backwards" and in all those places, they are under the condemnation of God. This should tell you something about the modern "pentecostal" practice of "slain in the spirit". All the people in Scripture who "fell before God" went face down, not backwards. I digress here - but anyways.

They go from this garden to gethsemane. A "gethsemane" is not a garden. There were multiple "gethsemane(s)" in the Mt. of Olives. A gethsemane is where an olive press is. They were located inside caves and this is where they pressed the olives for the oil that burned the lamps in the temple. During feasts when lots of people were in Jerusalem, people would stay in these caves as shelter.

Passover:
So Jesus is in this cave and an angel comes to Him. (Luke 22:43) What angel is this? The passage in English says "....angel from heaven; strengthening him..." but the Greek actually means "display of force against". So, go back to Exodus 12. What angel passes through the land at midnight on the passover to kill the first born? (The angel of death.) So who is this angel who comes to Jesus? (It's the angel of death.) What does the angel of death do to Jesus.

Scripture explains to us that when organisms die, the "breath of life" returns to God. (Psalm 104:29) The breath of life is what makes men "living souls". (Genesis 2:7)

So the angel of death removes the breath of life from Jesus which confines His soul to Sheol. Jesus does not die though; why not? Because He has a Divine nature inseparably joined to a human nature.

This is the "shortening" of "the tribulation" because if "the tribulation is not shortened; no flesh would be saved"! (Matthew 24:22) When is "flesh saved". That has to do with the atonement!

What is "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth". That is speaking of the wrath of God. "Out of the belly of hell you heard my cry." (Jonah 2:2)

Look at Jesus's behavior from the point He leaves the temple to the night of passover. He's extremely distressed. Why? Jeremiah 30 answers that question. This passage also talks about "Jacob's trouble" which is "the great tribulation". What is "Jacob" afraid of? (vs 10) He's afraid of failing God. He's afraid of losing what he came to accomplish. "Jacob" is not eternally lost though on account of Jacob's own righteousness. God being just though, can not rightfully condemn someone who is not a sinner. This is why Jesus's own personal integrity is so important to the atonement.

Jeremiah 25 talks about "the cup of God's wrath" causes the nations to "go mad". "Jacob" is probably also afraid of going insane and that is what will happen if God does not intervene. And this is why the angel of death confines Jesus's soul to hades. Jesus is determined to compete this course of action; but He can't do so if He's an emotional mess.

Now would the Romans have crucified someone they deemed to be insane? Probably not.

Note Jesus's interactions with people from the point this angel leaves until Jesus dies. He remains morally and cognitively intact; but absolutely emotionless.

By the point of "Why have you forsaken me". "I thirst" and "It is finished" Jesus becomes more and more difficult to understand. Those who wrote the Scripture give us by interpration from the Holy Spirit what Jesus said; but those who were present could not understand Him. The Greek denotes that His "cries" sound like the screeching of a crow. Obviously as His body breaks down; He's no longer able to produce intelligible speech.

Last thing says He bows His head and "gives up" or "sends off" His spirit. This is his human spirit, not the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost, just as the Father had already forsaken Him. Jesus dies because the Divine nature is rent from the human nature. This is what actually kills him.

His soul is released from Sheol (as well as the souls of all those He's atoned for who died on the OT side of the cross). Soul and spirt ascend to heaven to stand before the Father as "the lamb that was slain". We see this in Revelation 5. Note who's there with Him. "those who've come out of great tribulation". They are "souls" (not bodies) who "live and reign with Him 1000 years". (Revelation 6:9, Revelation 20:4)

Jesus's body rests on the Sabbath.

Rises from the dead on Sunday before dawn. Ephesians 1:18-22 tell us that Christ begins to "reign" when He rises from the dead.

Now when does Jesus ascend back to the Father? (I.E. in bodily form as a whole person) That happens 40 days later.

Why does Jesus tell Mary not to touch Him? Other people touch Him later on (women included). He says to her that He still has to ascend to the Father; yet we have no other Scriptural evidence that suggests Jesus left the earth and went back to heaven in bodily form between Sunday resurrection and the ascension.

Matter of fact this word "ascend" Strong's # 305. Is only used once in the context of "ascend to heaven". Acts 2:34 talks about David has not "ascended" to heaven before "the Lord says to my Lord sit at my right hand...." When does Jesus "sit down at the right hand of God the Father". That one I'd have to research some more.

summerville · Feb 24, 2020

The Righterzpen said:
Abomination that makes desolate:
The "abomination that makes desolate" was the construction of a false religion that replaced the true Messiah with this false religion.

Daniel 8
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

…

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Herod the Great:
These two passages are somewhat parallel to each other. This "king" and "little horn" are Herod the Great. Herod the Great was of Greek ancestry, although he really wanted to believe he was the Messiah (and he wanted other people to believe he was the Messiah too).

He magnifies himself against the "Prince of the Host" and against the "Prince of Princes". the Prince of the Host and the Prince of Princes is Jesus Christ.

By him (King Herod) the "daily sacrifice is taken away" and "the sanctuary is cast down". He also sets up the "transgression of desolation" and is "broken without hand". This transpires in the course of "2300 days" and there are "1290 days" between the sacrifice taken away and the abomination set up.

So, what does this all mean?

Herod became client king of Judea in (elected by the Roman senate) in 40 BC. In 19 BC, he began reconstruction on the temple. He tore the entire reconstructed Solomon's temple down and totally rebuilt it. It was rededicated 10 years later in 9 BC; although we don't know when, we know it was before Passover.

Around about Passover of 9 BC (or 8 BC - depending on which calendar we are talking about - the "sacred" or the "secular"; because these calendars started 6 months apart) comes John the Baptist's father "in the course of Abia". (End of March) July of that year, John is conceived. Six months later, Jesus is conceived. About Passover of 8 BC, John is born. Six months later; (which would have been right after the secular new year of 7 BC) during the feast of tabernacles, Jesus is born. (End of September.)

Joseph, Mary and Jesus stay in Bethlehem for 2 years. The Magi show up probably around the fall of 5 BC. Mary and Joseph take Jesus to Egypt. Herod dies in the spring of 4 BC. They return from Egypt in the summer time of 3 BC.

The time span this takes place in is 2300 days. I.E. - 6 years and 4 months.

Now; the first communication from God in 400 plus years, comes to John the Baptist's father, Zechariah while he's in the temple. (We'll say Passover of 8 BC because we'll use the sacred calendar. This would have been the beginning of the year.) Roughly a year later John is born. 1.5 years from the angel coming to Zechariah, Jesus is born. 2 years after Jesus is born; Herod kills the babies in Bethlehem.

This time span is 1290 days. I.E. - 3.5 years. (Daniel 12)

So what does "take away the daily sacrifice" and "set up the abomination that causes desolate" mean?

First off, we have to define terms. The word "sacrifice" is not in the Hebrew. "Daily" in this passage is best translated "continuous" or "ceaseless". "Take away" means to "magnify". I have no idea why they translated these verses the way that they did.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the Prince of the host, and by him the ceaseless exaltation and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the ceaseless by reason of transgression, and it (the host) cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake. How long shall be the vision concerning the ceaseless and the transgression of desolation, to give both the Holy One and the host (army) to be trodden under foot?

Now this hearkens to Jesus making reference to "destroy this temple and I'll raise it on the 3rd day". He wasn't talking about a building, he was talking about his body.

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be vindicated.

Jesus was "vindicated" of Herod the Great, when He returned from Egypt.

Now looking at this translation, it makes a whole lot more contextual sense. "Daily sacrifice" is a poor translation because Herod didn't take away the daily sacrifice, as was related to animal sacrifices; God took that away as soon as the Messiah was conceived; because He was the final sacrifice.

So, moving on from Jesus's birth to Herod trying to kill Him when He was two; this is where the "abomination that makes desolate" was set up. The first announcement that the Messiah was coming, was made by the angel when he appeared to John the Baptist's father. 3.5 years later, the coming of the Magi announces to the nation that the "King of the Jews" is born.

This makes contextual sense and fits into the 1290 day, as well as the 2300 day time table(s); both connected to the same king who "understands dark sayings".

Herod took away the sacrifices?

Herod the Great is known for his colossal building projects throughout Judea, including his renovation of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the expansion of the Temple Mount towards its north, the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron, the construction of the port at Caesarea Maritima, the fortress at Masada, and Herodium.

Herod the Great died in 4 BC and never defiled the Temple.

The Righterzpen · Feb 24, 2020

summerville said:
Herod took away the sacrifices?

Herod the Great is known for his colossal building projects throughout Judea, including his renovation of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the expansion of the Temple Mount towards its north, the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron, the construction of the port at Caesarea Maritima, the fortress at Masada, and Herodium.

Herod the Great died in 4 BC and never defiled the Temple.

Did you read what I wrote? The "abomination that makes desolate" has to do with the nations rejection of the Messiah.

Herod tried to kill the Messiah. You don't get more "defile the sanctuary of the body of the Lord" than that. "Destroy this temple and I'll raise it in 3 days". Remember that? The temple was Christ's body.

The destruction of the system is a result of the Messiah "now having appeared in flesh". This religious system was a shadow of Who was to come. That's why it was dismantled. Paul explains that.

summerville · Feb 24, 2020

The Righterzpen said:
Did you read what I wrote? The "abomination that makes desolate" has to do with the nations rejection of the Messiah. Herod tried to kill the Messiah. You don't get more "defile the sanctuary of the body of the Lord" than that. The destruction of the system is a result of the Messiah "now having appeared in flesh".

The Abomination of Desolation is the thing that defiles the Temple. I don't really believe Herod killed all the baby boys under 2 years of age. Herod, as client king of Rome, wouldn't have been concerned about the infant Jesus.

And then there's Herod Antipas who also wasn't worried about Jesus.. Jesus was safe and unmolested in the North... not so in Judea where the Sanhedrin was gunning for him.

Or, am I misunderstanding you?

A Bruised Reed · Feb 24, 2020

Serenity Armstead said:
Basically if your a christian & you get left behind that means your not going to heaven right?because God gave you a chance to get it right before he came back...?

Hello.

I will leave aside, for the moment, any concerns about end-times teachings and common misnomers on that topic. There is a deeper and more urgent concern here, which has to do with developing a proper understanding of salvation itself, and what it means to be saved. I think if there is a better understanding of salvation, of what God has accomplished for his people in the gospel, and what a believer has been given in Christ, such an understanding will answer to many anxieties some Christians have about issues like the one you've raised here.

Christians often have questions about things like "the unpardonable sin," "getting left behind," and other issues that have to do with a believer's security in her salvation. Usually such Christians are asking the wrong questions. For example, they want to understand all they can about "the unpardonable sin" or how they can have greater assurance or security regarding their status as a believer. But this is the wrong way to go about understanding such issues, because what they lack is not an understanding of something like the unpardonable sin - rather, what they lack is an understanding of what it means to be saved, and the implications of such a truth.

If you'd like to discuss that in more depth, please let me know, and we can do that.

In the meantime, I leave you with a simple but important thought about how to make sense of difficult Bible passages, which is the following. Always bear in mind that the context of any Bible passage is the whole Bible. Any part of the Bible you read must be read in light of the rest of the Bible. This will be a powerful aid in preventing us from setting one Bible passage against another, which is something we must be careful never to do. Passages in the Bible which function as warnings must be harmonized with passages which function as promises. God's warnings and promises always work together, and they illuminate and support each other, and care must be taken so that we don't unravel their harmony of purpose by setting such Bible passages against each other. And we should be suspicious of Bible teaching which does that.

Peace.

summerville · Feb 24, 2020

The Righterzpen said:
Did you read what I wrote? The "abomination that makes desolate" has to do with the nations rejection of the Messiah.

Herod tried to kill the Messiah. You don't get more "defile the sanctuary of the body of the Lord" than that. "Destroy this temple and I'll raise it in 3 days". Remember that? The temple was Christ's body.

The destruction of the system is a result of the Messiah "now having appeared in flesh". This religious system was a shadow of Who was to come. That's why it was dismantled. Paul explains that.

Herod didn't rebuild the Temple either.

The Righterzpen · Feb 24, 2020

summerville said:
The Abomination of Desolation is the thing that defiles the Temple. I don't really believe Herod killed all the baby boys under 2 years of age. Herod, as client king of Rome, wouldn't have been concerned about the infant Jesus.

And then there's Herod Antipas who also wasn't worried about Jesus.. Jesus was safe and unmolested in the North... not so in Judea where the Sanhedrin was gunning for him.

Or, am I misunderstanding you?

Well, unless you are going to deny what the Scripture says about Herod trying to kill Jesus. If you won't believe Scripture; then you'll have to take that up with God.

Herod the Great:

Matthew 2:13-18
And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.

17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying,

18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

Herod Antipas:
Keep in mind; he's the king who killed John the Baptist.

24 And she went forth, and said unto her mother, What shall I ask? And she said, The head of John the Baptist.

25 And she came in straightway with haste unto the king, and asked, saying, I will that thou give me by and by in a charger the head of John the Baptist.

26 And the king was exceeding sorry; yet for his oath's sake, and for their sakes which sat with him, he would not reject her.

Herod also feared Jesus was John come back from the dead.

Mark 6:
14 And king Herod heard of him (Jesus); (for his name was spread abroad

and he said, That John the Baptist was risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.

15 Others said, That it is Elias. And others said, That it is a prophet, or as one of the prophets.

16 But when Herod heard thereof, he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead.

Luke 13:
30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him (Jesus), Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

summerville · Feb 24, 2020

The Righterzpen said:
Well, unless you are going to deny what the Scripture says about Herod trying to kill Jesus. If you won't believe Scripture; then you'll have to take that up with God.

Herod the Great:

Matthew 2:13-18
And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.

17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying,

18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

Herod Antipas:
Keep in mind; he's the king who killed John the Baptist.

24 And she went forth, and said unto her mother, What shall I ask? And she said, The head of John the Baptist.

25 And she came in straightway with haste unto the king, and asked, saying, I will that thou give me by and by in a charger the head of John the Baptist.

26 And the king was exceeding sorry; yet for his oath's sake, and for their sakes which sat with him, he would not reject her.

Herod also feared Jesus was John come back from the dead.

Mark 6:
14 And king Herod heard of him (Jesus); (for his name was spread abroad and he said, That John the Baptist was risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.

15 Others said, That it is Elias. And others said, That it is a prophet, or as one of the prophets.

16 But when Herod heard thereof, he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead.

Luke 13:
30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him (Jesus), Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Jesus didn't go to Egypt as a baby.. That an attempt by the gospels to hijack Hosea.

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