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The Bible is a book that only lightly touches on science, and only as it pertains to God's people.
Even in the creation event we can see the separation of light and darkness to be also the separation of "God's people" verses "ignorance".
All through the Old Testament God's people are called "light" and are called to be a "light to the world" and ignorance is likewise darkness.
Job 37:19
"Teach us what we shall say to him; for we cannot order our speech by reason of darkness."
Isaiah 60:2
"For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise on you, and his glory shall be seen on you."
Isaiah 42:6
“I am the LORD; I have called you in righteousness; I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people, a light for the nations,"
Isaiah 49:6
"he says: “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel; I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.” "
John 3:19
"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil"
It's a history book and a book on who God is, His nature and His relation to both His people and the world, and the responsibility of both God and man to Him in covanent together.
Do you honestly think God will ever allow to be measured by science? I don't think the Bible is any indication that God would condescend to such a thing.
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"As in the days of Noah".
The portals of wisdom above, and the fountains of wisdom below will be opened.
"In the six hundreth year in the life of Noah, the windows of heaven opened and all the fountains of the great depths burst forth."
Today in the year 5780 there is a flood,
a flood of information like never before,
click on a button and get thousands of replies in a split second.
So is it to be before the coming of the Messiah and the Messianic era.
The academy of Eliyahu taught;
The first 2,000 years were of nothingmess;
The second 2,000 years were of Torah;
The third 2,000 years could all have been the days of the Messiah.
(Tractate Sanhedrin 97A)
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This pertains to the salvation of man..
Not to the sudden ability for that which is finite to measure that which is infinite, for that which is quantifiable to quantify the unquantifiable..
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When you speak to atheists do you think it's just as clear to them?
I believe they ask for something different.
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I replied to your post #104 in post #106,
where it has gone I do not know.
But I will say again,
Torah is not a history book,
Torah is instructions and Torah is forever.
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I'm not going to mess up the thread anymore... We will discuss perhaps another time and place. You are correct in that I see a less limited mindset when I think of God's Word, than do you.
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This is unlikely. Scientist don't view this as a valid scientific endeavor. Scientists spend their time working on scientific projects. They are not in any way in the religion business. You criticized others for throwing out nonsensical facts but the notion that science is some how providing proof that God doesn't exist or even trying too is an equally false narrative.
There are many who engage in arguments regarding creation vs origins and but that is philosophy not science and 100% speculative. It is okay to be imaginative and try to think of possible explanations for the origins of the universe or life on our planet but we shouldn't be dogmatic about these concepts or mistake them as being scientific. We may as well believe in Star Trek science. Very creative and imaginative and sometimes succeeds in foreshadows future technologies but it is theater.
Edit: Oh My Goodness I did it again! I can't seem to help myself. This thread is about what it takes to be saved!
I started this thread because I have been frustrated in my life and feel like prayer has not helped me change my course. So the very real question, and I believe is a very real question for many, many people, is what does it really take to be saved? Or are we wasting our time? Not because God does or doesn't exist but because our understand of God isn't right, or our understanding of salvation, or our wants being out of align with Gods priorities.
What is Gods true nature? Does God operate as a ruler, who doles out blessings as He sees fit? Is God simply an observer or an active participant in peoples lives? If I am dead in sin can I be blamed for not seeking God in the right way? If nothing changes, why? If there is no evidence of salvation then how do we know we are saved?
I think there is a great deal of confusion on this topic. In this thread, acknowledged believers have both supported and refuted predestination.
If we are all reading the same book why are there so many doctrinal and conceptual differences?
Special thanks to Paul and Hazelelponi for their scriptural knowledge and detailed and well conceived posts. And they both appear to be in agreement.
And additional thanks to Hazelelponi for her caring and personal words of hope, grace, and wisdom.
Thank you!
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I believe Paul and I are largely in agreement on most aspects of scripture - but I believe our respective views on freewill are different.
The reason you see these types of differences is because you can find scriptural verses that support both ideas.
The issue many people face is how and where do they come together, and in what manner.
I believe, as many other reformers do, that they meet in compatiblism.
Compatibilism | Monergism
^^ link to explanation..
I DO believe that the acceptance of Christ as Lord is an act of our will, however, it's not a libertarian freewill - not uninfluenced by Gods will and His choosing. But we do make the choice.
Some people prefer to explain salvation then in terms of choice, because we do make a voluntary choice... Others see the need to emphasize predestination, because it's definitely presented in the Bible this way.
But it's a concept that is more difficult to grasp, people can go to extremes with any single concept. You can end up with antinomianism, or people not even making the first step in their wills.
However there are extremes in freewill to, it's how you get this superficial doctrine that tells you all you need is to "ask Jesus into your heart" a concept not even in the Bible.
The fact is, some of these concepts ARE more difficult to grasp, and it takes time to learn them accurately and even scholars can disagree...
I understood the Christian God long before I could grasp the concept of Jesus's death on the cross...
Often what brought us to Christ in the first place can make concepts like freewill and predestination more difficult still. If you have a true saving faith and you saw your own salvation as a matter of your choice, predestination is going to be more difficult, if you came to Christ by Christs will and you know it, it's more difficult to see where voluntary choice came into play..
So there are some disagreements, but it doesn't mean the answers aren't there. The goal ultimately is to accurately present the Gospel to the lost...
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So you are saying you have doubts
.What would it take to convince you otherwise? What would count as proof? Would a change in your character constitute evidence of a spiritual event or would it take something else? Would statistical evidence, like the statistical impossibility of auto generated life be enough or would you consider that speculative? The Earth is flying through space at roughly 67,000 miles per hour while spinning at over 1,000 miles and hour. We are soaring around a nuclear fire about 3 million mile in circumference. We are clinging to this relatively small rock in space living in a bubble of air clinging to its surface. And yet we have blue skies and gentle rains. We live in relative tranquility in spite of the destructive chaos that surrounds us. Even if you do not believe in Christianity, doesn't this make you think that maybe there is an all powerful God running the show?
So the topic is related to the Christian philosophy in particular. If you can accept the possibility of God, not suggesting you do, then why or why not the Christian God?
Thank you
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Peter John
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Who are the lost? They are sheep, the elect, who don't know it yet, or have strayed, & need to be shepherded back. Obviously, you can see I am on the predestination side of things, as that is in the Bible. Freewill, however, is not, unless linked in the old testament, to offerings, which are vowed or voluntary, made in the temple. we make choices, but that is self-will, 2Pet2v10. Jn15v16 says God chooses us, & that we are predestined before the foundation of the world, Eph1v4.
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Yes. Every demon, fallen angel, power, principality, archon and ruler knows this; it is a fact of nature. That is why belief is not enough; agape is love through activity/action. There is an election that *must* be saved, so when that number has been killed, all of this ends.
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