Who will pay for free healthcare? Where will the money come from?

hislegacy said:

Thoughts?

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You're presuposing that no other funds in the budget would be relocated and are ignoring the fact that the estimates are lower than want is already being spent on healthcare.

Yes people are presupposing that healthcare will be the only expense in the budget. Ya think that is all politiicans care about? Defense weapons, farm subsidies, federal payroll, Congressional/Judicial payroll & pensions, infrastructure, education. There aren't enough assets to meet such an unpredictable beast like healthcare. We're talking quadrillions & most americans don't know their exponents.

lordjeff said:

We're talking quadrillions....

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Unless we're talking bout the budget for the next few centuries, no, we are not.

Desk trauma said:

Unless we're talking bout the budget for the next few centuries, no, we are not.

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Does anybody have any idea the immensities of the federal budget: the cost of military jets & ships & tanks, then the small stuff plus the soldiers; how about all the education money be it for infrastructure, curriculum, payroll, mandates, financial aid, grants; social security & welfare payments; roads, bridges, airports, seaports, national parks; grants for arts; housing, usda, epa, dept. of commerce. There just isn't enough money.

This is really being overthought.

You pay more than most European countries for your healthcare and, in many cases, receive worse care.

A lot of cost in U.S. healthcare is simply the amount of irrelevant people in the industry. Take away insurance and you can get rid of all the administration side of things that prop up the industry and recruit more medical staff.

But yeah, basically raise taxes where necessary and healthcare comes out of that.

What a lot of folks in the U.S. fail to understand is in the UK we pay what, 20% tax for the most part on our income, that's it. Your healthcare all comes from that as well as other services the country needs.
Some folks in the U.S. are paying more than 20% tax and still having to pay for health insurance which is astronomically overpriced.

It will always face opposition because of how many politicians and officials receive kickbacks of some form or another from lobbies and corporations. This needs to stop. Stop worrying about the bank account of someone that earns $175,000+, elected to serve you, and start worrying about what can be done to stop companies gauging people in need of basic human rights like healthcare.

hislegacy said:

All politicizing aside -

The average cost that I am seeing is in the neighborhood of 30 trillion over 3 years (loose average). Let's look at 10 trillion added to our current budget.

I've read the following in regards to funding this (not including: free college, free childcare, loan forgivness).

Solutions offered:

Tax businesses.

Here is the problem - here is the top ten businesses in the US by profit
TOTAL profit is 442.6 billion.

10,000,000,000,000 - 442,600,000,000 = 9,557,400,000,000.00
​

Tax the top 1% Found here

1,408,888 people paying and average of 538,257.00 come to $758,343,828,216

Let's say we quadruple the taxes - 3,033,375,312,864.00 Take that from the costs
10,000,000,000,000.00
-442,600,000,000.00 Every penny of the top ten businesses
-3,033,375,312,864.00 - charging the top 1% 400% more in taxes

It leaves a shortfall of $6,524,024,687,136
per year
​

Where does that come from?

I know this is over simplistic - but the numbers don't add up - the cost is more than the top 1% make and more that the profits of major business.

Thoughts?

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There is another way to look at this problem. There are people who are still young enough to be productive citizens for many years to come if they could get the health care that they need.

I knew a man who I will call Bill. He was 25 years old and he worked at jobs like cook at a fast food restaurant. Both of his parents were dead. Bill started having seizures. It might have something to do with a car accident where he hit his head.

Bill had no health insurance. He could go to the county hospital and he did. Unfortunately, Bill's work situation was unsettled, and so his living situation was unsettled. If he changed jobs, he moved to be closer to work. Bill didn't own a car. In the process, he lived in three different counties in no more than three or four years. When Bill went to the county hospital after having a seizure, he was usually in a different county from the one he was in the last time he had a seizure. So he would see a different doctor. There is no continuity of treatment. Bill's condition was never actually diagnosed.

On one occasion, I took Bill to see an emergency room doctor, at the county hospital of the county where he was renting a room at the time. I was in the examining room with Bill and the neurologist. The neurologist said, "Well, we don't know exactly what's wrong, but I'll prescribe some pills."

That is one misunderstanding about emergency care at hospitals, or hospital care for the uninsured. If someone is bleeding to death, the emergency room staff will stop the bleeding. But what if there is no obvious diagnosis? What if it's not obvious what is wrong or what treatment is needed, even to a seasoned doctor? The hospital has absolutely no incentive to find out what the problem is. If they make a diagnosis, they might have to act on it.

The state is spending money to take care of hospital visits for people like Bill. But is this money being spent wisely? A better plan would give continuity of treatment.

lordjeff said:

Does anybody have any idea the immensities of the federal budget: the cost of military jets & ships & tanks, then the small stuff plus the soldiers; how about all the education money be it for infrastructure, curriculum, payroll, mandates, financial aid, grants; social security & welfare payments; roads, bridges, airports, seaports, national parks; grants for arts; housing, usda, epa, dept. of commerce. There just isn't enough money.

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The US federal expenditure last year was $4.45 trillion. A quadrillion is one million trillion, we are not talking about quadrillions no matter how many thing you bring up.

hislegacy said:

The average cost that I am seeing is in the neighborhood of 30 trillion over 3 years (loose average). Let's look at 10 trillion added to our current budget.

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What is your source for these numbers? Current US healthcare spending totals $3.5 trillion/year, and close to half of that (~$1.5 trillion) is already paid for by the government (Medicare/Medicaid).

Source.

So we need to come up with ~$2 trillion/year - which is less than what you had in your proposal.

lordjeff said:

Does anybody have any idea the immensities of the federal budget: the cost of military jets & ships & tanks, then the small stuff plus the soldiers; how about all the education money be it for infrastructure, curriculum, payroll, mandates, financial aid, grants; social security & welfare payments; roads, bridges, airports, seaports, national parks; grants for arts; housing, usda, epa, dept. of commerce. There just isn't enough money.

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Look at what you're already spending versus countries who just pay via taxes for the overwhelming majority of healthcare.

The money is already there, you're just allowing yourselves to be robbed by people who don't need money more than people need access to prescriptions without checking their bank balance first.

hislegacy said:

All politicizing aside -

The average cost that I am seeing is in the neighborhood of 30 trillion over 3 years (loose average). Let's look at 10 trillion added to our current budget.

I've read the following in regards to funding this (not including: free college, free childcare, loan forgivness).

Solutions offered:

Tax businesses.

Here is the problem - here is the top ten businesses in the US by profit
TOTAL profit is 442.6 billion.

10,000,000,000,000 - 442,600,000,000 = 9,557,400,000,000.00
​

Tax the top 1% Found here

1,408,888 people paying and average of 538,257.00 come to $758,343,828,216

Let's say we quadruple the taxes - 3,033,375,312,864.00 Take that from the costs
10,000,000,000,000.00
-442,600,000,000.00 Every penny of the top ten businesses
-3,033,375,312,864.00 - charging the top 1% 400% more in taxes

It leaves a shortfall of $6,524,024,687,136
per year
​

Where does that come from?

I know this is over simplistic - but the numbers don't add up - the cost is more than the top 1% make and more that the profits of major business.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Thank you for all the big numbers.

I'm not familiar with the US health system, but I live in a country with 'free' healthcare. We aren't yet bankrupt so I'm confused.

Perhaps you could make a balanced argument by also explaining any savings associated with "free" healthcare when compared to current US public and private health costs?

Thank you.
OB

hislegacy said:

All politicizing aside -

The average cost that I am seeing is in the neighborhood of 30 trillion over 3 years (loose average). Let's look at 10 trillion added to our current budget.

I've read the following in regards to funding this (not including: free college, free childcare, loan forgivness).

Solutions offered:

Tax businesses.

Here is the problem - here is the top ten businesses in the US by profit
TOTAL profit is 442.6 billion.

10,000,000,000,000 - 442,600,000,000 = 9,557,400,000,000.00
​

Tax the top 1% Found here

1,408,888 people paying and average of 538,257.00 come to $758,343,828,216

Let's say we quadruple the taxes - 3,033,375,312,864.00 Take that from the costs
10,000,000,000,000.00
-442,600,000,000.00 Every penny of the top ten businesses
-3,033,375,312,864.00 - charging the top 1% 400% more in taxes

It leaves a shortfall of $6,524,024,687,136
per year
​

Where does that come from?

I know this is over simplistic - but the numbers don't add up - the cost is more than the top 1% make and more that the profits of major business.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Australia's experience is that we have "affordable" healthcare because it's funded by a tax levy. It is relatively fair because it is tied to income. However, there is never enough money for healthcare. There is a private health system as well. It is expensive but very quick. You can have private health insurance which covers most of the cost of private health.

One major problem is the ageing population (including me). Another is the drain on the system from preventable illness due to lifestyle choices. There is a diabetes epidemic in this country, especially type 2. The answer, of course, is to throw more money at it. Which means more tax. Which means that people complain about being over taxed. And on it goes.

The UK spent £200 billion on healthcare in 2017.

Multiply our population by 5 and that's the same as the U.S. and even then that's £1bn.

$1.29bn dollars.

So you're already spending three times what the UK and other countries would with the same populations.

Stop rewarding greedy corporations and take back control. Politicians are elected to serve their constituents, not themselves. Get rid of lobbying, stop politicians getting kickbacks and maybe things will change.

Aussie Pete said:

Another is the drain on the system from preventable illness due to lifestyle choices. There is a diabetes epidemic in this country, especially type 2.

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This is definitely a problem and in the UK obesity-related problems cost the most, including diabetes.

I wouldn't say increased income taxes are the way to go, but 'fat' taxes on products like sugary drinks, cakes etc definitely are. It has worked on tobacco and has cut smoking numbers substantially.

Aussie Pete said:

Another is the drain on the system from preventable illness due to lifestyle choices. There is a diabetes epidemic in this country, especially type 2. The answer, of course, is to throw more money at it. Which means more tax. Which means that people complain about being over taxed. And on it goes.

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Not really - Diabetes Mellitus (Type 2) numbers have been dropping since 2014-2015.
4364.0.55.001 - National Health Survey: First Results, 2017-18


OB

Comparative outcomes -------- Canada / US :

per capita medical spending --- $4500 / $8500

percent of GDP ---------------------11.2 / 17.7

public share –---------------------- 70% / 48%,

doctors per 1000 -------------------- 2.4 / 2.5

nurses per 1000 ----------------------9.3 / 11.1

life expectancy ----------------------- 81 / 79

smoking rate --------------------- 15.7% / 14.8%

obesity rate -----------------------25.4% / 36.5%.

As you can readily see, Canada achieves comparable or superior outcomes at close to half the expense and every citizen regardless of status or income has equal access.

When one is unconcerned about cost at the site of the hospital/clinic, this fosters an entitlement mentality. But should that sense of security splurge into something like a severe car accident or say a poisonous snake bit or ALS or kidney transplant, then the managers in charge have to weigh the cost of trying to fix these difficult problems vs treating something like a broken arm. Whom does one think that the govt. is going to select? Please do not think for a minute the govt. is Jesus who is going to spread his love & concern around everybody. Difficult stuff just can't be covered in a system of single payor. And we have too much difficult stuff to deal with. My brother just lost his wife to ALS; she had a fancy wheelchair with all the accessories. This wheelchair cost $85,000. Now tell me who thinks the govt. is going to cover that chair under single payor times all the ALS people in given country?

lordjeff said:

Does anybody have any idea the immensities of the federal budget: the cost of military jets & ships & tanks, then the small stuff plus the soldiers; how about all the education money be it for infrastructure, curriculum, payroll, mandates, financial aid, grants; Social Security & welfare payments; roads, bridges, airports, seaports, national parks, grants for arts; housing, USDA, EPA, Department of Commerce. There just isn't enough money.

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Did you know a huge chunk of our military budget is being wasted and needs to be cut anyway? Bernie is fully aware of that and has said he will drastically cut military spending. He also wants to abolish the ICE, which would save millions of dollars. With all of the criticism it has been getting, I am sure we can control immigration and customs better without it.

Can you name one airport and seaport that is not privately owned?