Question for rapture people

Douggg

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Pure unsupported opinion.
I have asked you before; you MUST provide a verse that says God will take His people to heaven, if you promote the 'rapture to heaven'.
You have failed to do so, yet you persist in promoting that false theory.

The elect will be gathered from the four winds of the heavens....
NOT of heaven, where God resides. You twist and misapply this verse. Bad you.
I have responded to you with verses from the bible multiple times, already.

I am not saying that you won't be here to go through the great tribulation - since you so choose. But for them who are looking for Jesus to translate them and go with him to heaven, where the mansions are - they will be gone - to escape what will take place here on the earth.

Matthew 24:31, the elect, applies to the Jews, presently non-believers who will become believers during the great tribulation, will be gathered to the land of Israel, as found in Ezekiel 39:29..

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
 
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Oberamagau

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Matthew 24:31, the elect, applies to the Jews, presently non-believers who will become believers during the great tribulation, will be gathered to the land of Israel,

Not once in the New Testament does the word 'elect' refer to Jews. The word "eklektos" once or twice refers to Jesus, once to angels, about a dozen times Christians.
 
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Douggg

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keras

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once again, I haven’t NEVER stated that I believe anyone will “live in heaven!” I don’t have to prove anything that: #1 I don’t believe! #2 I never indicated I believed it! #3 I’ve never promoted it!

Why are you so stuck on that? And why do you persist in assuming you know what I believe? I haven’t twisted or misapplied anything, but YOU HAVE- I’ve confronted you with it and you responded by lying about my beliefs! And now, to avoid addressing your lies and twisting of scripture, you’re trying to turn the table on me and make me out to be in error. NOTHING I’ve written is in error.

Where does scripture say the earth will be transformed under our feet? That’s the twist you’ve put on scripture, and you don’t have an answer so you cover that by falsely accusing me of twisting scripture when there is no statement I’ve made to support your nefarious strategy to discredit what I have said.

Willl you continue lying about what I’ve said, or will you answer the question?!
Note that I was replying to Douggg in #339.
But your accusations are unacceptable and I require an apology.

The earth will be transformed after the Millennium. At that time, all the people whose names are found in the Book of Life, will receive immortality and will live in the New Jerusalem, on the renewed earth. Revelation 21-22.
 
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keras

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I have responded to you with verses from the bible multiple times, already.

I am not saying that you won't be here to go through the great tribulation - since you so choose. But for them who are looking for Jesus to translate them and go with him to heaven, where the mansions are - they will be gone - to escape what will take place here on the earth.

Matthew 24:31, the elect, applies to the Jews, presently non-believers who will become believers during the great tribulation, will be gathered to the land of Israel, as found in Ezekiel 39:29..

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Again; unmitigated Douggish rubbish!
NOWHERE does the Bible say God will take His people to heaven to avoid the Great Tribulation. And as for saying I will have to go thru the GT because I refuse the believe in a 'rapture', then that is an indictment against you for judging a fellow Christian. James 4:11-12

The Jews will be punished for their continued apostasy and rejection of Jesus. Only a remnant will survive, Romans 9:27. Just a few, as Zechariah 13:8-9, Isaiah 6:11-13 say.
 
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summerville

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Still waiting. It just seems that if God cared enough to describe even the most minute details of Jesus' life even to points where it would to most seem insignificant then I would think that a huge event like the rapture would be prophesied in the OT too and we would have clear details of that as well .


The Thessalonians hadn't been Christians for very long and they began to despair because some of their congregation had passed away before the second coming. Paul is reassuring them that their loved ones who had died would still be taken up when Jesus returns.. Paul and the disciples believed fervently that Jesus was returning soon.

The other problem is a complete misunderstanding of the Book of Daniel. No one knows who wrote early Daniel with its historical errors about Babylon, but late Daniel is about Antiochus IV Epiphanes who defiled the Temple and cruelly persecuted the Jews in his attempt to Hellenize them. He sacrificed a pig to Zeus in the Temple among other things. He called himself "god manifest". That lead to the Maccabean Revolt. Daniel is not prophecy. Its history... and it was written by "author unknown" to encourage the Jews during a difficult time.

Antiochus was killed or drowned at sea.. and the Jews rededicated the Temple (See Hannukah)
 
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summerville

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What are those historical errors?

Cyrus was not "the king of Babylon" Cyrus was "the king of the Persians and the Medes."

Daniel 1:1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.



The book opens by claiming that Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem in the third year of Jehoiakim, and carried the king into Babylon along with some of the temple treasures. In fact, the chronology of the Exile in II Kings 24 places the first siege in the first year of the reign of Jehoiachin, Jehoiakim's son, some eight years later than Daniel's chronology.



II Kings 24:8-13 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months...At that time the servants of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up against Jerusalem, and the city was besieged...And Jehoiachin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon, he, and his mother, and his servants, and his princes, and his officers: and the king of Babylon took him in the eighth year of his reign...And he carried out thence all the treasures of the house of the Lord...



The book of Jeremiah agrees with this date, but fails to mention any earlier siege during the reign of Jehoiakim.



Jeremiah 29:1-2 Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon; (After that Jeconiah [Jehoiachin] the king, and the queen, and the eunuchs, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, and the carpenters, and the smiths, were departed from Jerusalem...)



In fact, in Jeremiah 36:9, we find Jehoiakim in Jerusalem in his fifth year, two years after the time that Daniel claims he was carried away to Babylon. The Babylonian records indicate that Nebuchadnezzar made Judah a vassal state in about 603 BCE, when Jehioakim was still king, but do not record a capture of Jerusalem at that time. At the time that Daniel claimed that Nebuchadnezzar was engaged in a siege against Jerusalem, the Babylonian records indicate that he was occupied with a war against Necho, king of Egypt (Jeremiah 46:2), and then returned home to Babylon to succeed his father as king.



How did Daniel arrive at the conclusion that the siege took place in the third year of Jehoiakim? One possibility is that he had before him two incompatible accounts of the Exile - II Kings 24 and II Chronicles 36. The latter passage claims that Jehoiakim was indeed carried away to Babylon, although this fact is not mentioned in any other Biblical account (in fact, it seems to contradict Jeremiah), nor does it square with the Babylonian account of the wars of Nebuchadnezzar. Being a true Bible believer, Daniel obviously decided that both accounts must be true, and combined them to create a third account, one which is incompatible with both Kings and Chronicles. Another possibility is that Daniel misread II Kings 24:1, and assumed that the three years of vassalage referred to the third year of Jehoiakim.



The word Chaldeans originally referred to a Babylonian tribe that overthrew the Assyrians in the seventh century BCE, and established the neo-Babylonian empire. At the time of the Exile and later, the word was synonymous with the Babylonians (5:30, 9:1). In time, however, the word Chaldeans also came to refer to the educated, priestly class in the Babylonian society, and it is this later usage that Daniel employs (see 2:2, 3:8, 4:7, 5:7).



Daniel records that the Babylonian Empire fell to a certain king by the name of Darius, a Mede. (5:31, 9:1). Neither the Babylonian nor the Persian histories record such a person. Herodotus, who wrote his history about 440 BCE, records that Babylon fell to the Persian army, under the control of King Cyrus. Darius the Mede is never mentioned. In fact, the Median kingdom was conquered and assimilated by Cyrus as early as 550 BCE, when he defeated Astyages, king of Media.



There is good evidence that the person that Daniel imagined to be Darius the Mede was in fact Darius I Hystaspes, the king of Persia from 521 to 485 BCE. The author of Daniel, writing in the second century BCE, confused this king with his own creation, Darius the Mede.



In Daniel 9:1, Darius is said to be the son of Ahasuerus, commonly acknowledged to be a variant spelling of Artaxerxes (Esther 1:1). The problem, of course, is that Artaxerxes was a persian. Artaxerxes was the father of a Persian king named Darius, but this was Darius II, who reigned from 425 to 405 BCE. Had Daniel been alive in the first year of this Darius, he would have been at least 160 years old, assuming that he was an infant when he was carried to Babylon.



http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bible/comment/d...
 
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keras

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What's false about what he said?
Yes, it is incumbent upon any accuser to provide scriptural proof of error. NPP fails to do that.
I often see how people whose false beliefs are challenged; get nasty and personal.
Cyrus was not "the king of Babylon" Cyrus was "the king of the Persians and the Medes."
Whose capital was Babylon.
The rest of your 'history lesson', is just a forcing in of history to fit prophecy. which fails, as Daniel clearly says he is prophesying about the last days.
There has been a partial fulfilment of Daniels prophesies, but never yet a complete fulfilment.

What about Revelation? Most all of that Book, which parallels Daniels end time prophesies, await fulfillment. As the Lord's servants, we should be aware and ready to endure thru all that must happen before Jesus Returns.
 
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Oberamagau

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Cyrus was not "the king of Babylon" Cyrus was "the king of the Persians and the Medes."

Daniel 1:1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.



The book opens by claiming that Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem in the third year of Jehoiakim, and carried the king into Babylon along with some of the temple treasures. In fact, the chronology of the Exile in II Kings 24 places the first siege in the first year of the reign of Jehoiachin, Jehoiakim's son, some eight years later than Daniel's chronology.



II Kings 24:8-13 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months...At that time the servants of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up against Jerusalem, and the city was besieged...And Jehoiachin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon, he, and his mother, and his servants, and his princes, and his officers: and the king of Babylon took him in the eighth year of his reign...And he carried out thence all the treasures of the house of the Lord...



The book of Jeremiah agrees with this date, but fails to mention any earlier siege during the reign of Jehoiakim.



Jeremiah 29:1-2 Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon; (After that Jeconiah [Jehoiachin] the king, and the queen, and the eunuchs, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, and the carpenters, and the smiths, were departed from Jerusalem...)



In fact, in Jeremiah 36:9, we find Jehoiakim in Jerusalem in his fifth year, two years after the time that Daniel claims he was carried away to Babylon. The Babylonian records indicate that Nebuchadnezzar made Judah a vassal state in about 603 BCE, when Jehioakim was still king, but do not record a capture of Jerusalem at that time. At the time that Daniel claimed that Nebuchadnezzar was engaged in a siege against Jerusalem, the Babylonian records indicate that he was occupied with a war against Necho, king of Egypt (Jeremiah 46:2), and then returned home to Babylon to succeed his father as king.



How did Daniel arrive at the conclusion that the siege took place in the third year of Jehoiakim? One possibility is that he had before him two incompatible accounts of the Exile - II Kings 24 and II Chronicles 36. The latter passage claims that Jehoiakim was indeed carried away to Babylon, although this fact is not mentioned in any other Biblical account (in fact, it seems to contradict Jeremiah), nor does it square with the Babylonian account of the wars of Nebuchadnezzar. Being a true Bible believer, Daniel obviously decided that both accounts must be true, and combined them to create a third account, one which is incompatible with both Kings and Chronicles. Another possibility is that Daniel misread II Kings 24:1, and assumed that the three years of vassalage referred to the third year of Jehoiakim.



The word Chaldeans originally referred to a Babylonian tribe that overthrew the Assyrians in the seventh century BCE, and established the neo-Babylonian empire. At the time of the Exile and later, the word was synonymous with the Babylonians (5:30, 9:1). In time, however, the word Chaldeans also came to refer to the educated, priestly class in the Babylonian society, and it is this later usage that Daniel employs (see 2:2, 3:8, 4:7, 5:7).



Daniel records that the Babylonian Empire fell to a certain king by the name of Darius, a Mede. (5:31, 9:1). Neither the Babylonian nor the Persian histories record such a person. Herodotus, who wrote his history about 440 BCE, records that Babylon fell to the Persian army, under the control of King Cyrus. Darius the Mede is never mentioned. In fact, the Median kingdom was conquered and assimilated by Cyrus as early as 550 BCE, when he defeated Astyages, king of Media.



There is good evidence that the person that Daniel imagined to be Darius the Mede was in fact Darius I Hystaspes, the king of Persia from 521 to 485 BCE. The author of Daniel, writing in the second century BCE, confused this king with his own creation, Darius the Mede.



In Daniel 9:1, Darius is said to be the son of Ahasuerus, commonly acknowledged to be a variant spelling of Artaxerxes (Esther 1:1). The problem, of course, is that Artaxerxes was a persian. Artaxerxes was the father of a Persian king named Darius, but this was Darius II, who reigned from 425 to 405 BCE. Had Daniel been alive in the first year of this Darius, he would have been at least 160 years old, assuming that he was an infant when he was carried to Babylon.



http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bible/comment/d...
I don't understand your entire reply but can admit that the Darius' and Cyrus' get confusing because it does seem there were 2 maybe even 3 of each one!

There's very little secular history on Darius and that's why some people believe he didn't exist. The bible is the historical authority on him. Before Darius and the Medes took out Babylon, the Medes and Persians were confederate but two separate empires. They also had their own languages. Darius was older than Cyrus and Cyrus married Darius' sister - Mandane and their father was Ahasuerus. I don't think Artaxerxes is the same person as Ahasuerus.

The custom of the day was for the elder to go into battle first and Darius being older than Cyrus did just that. Darius ruled Babylon for about 6 years before his brother in law Cyrus came in and took over the castle with very few casualties (about 100). It was more of a family coup than anything else. That's when Darius was made king over the northern area of the province and Cyrus the southern part.

In Isaiah 13, God says He would stir up the Medes against Babylon. Not the Persians!

Daniel 5 quotes Darius the Mead as the one who "took" Babylon at the age of 62. Not Cyrus like the secularist would have you believe.

Daniel, Isaiah's, and Jeremiah's prophecies ascribe the conquest and destruction of Babylon to the Medes.

Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Isaiah 13:17
"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ie.(Babylon)

Jeremiah 51:11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance
of his temple.

Darius reigned for about 6 years...Darius ruled FIRST...

So this Daniel prospered in the reign of Darius, AND in the reign of Cyrus the Persian.

It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the WHOLE kingdom;

Then Darius the king made a decree, and search was made in the house of the rolls, where the treasures were laid up in BABYLON.

Daniel said, "Also I in the FIRST year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him."

In the FIRST year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;


In the four and twentieth day of the sixth month, in the SECOND year of Darius the king.

And it came to pass in the FOURTH year of king Darius, that the word of the LORD came unto Zechariah in the fourth day of the ninth month, even in Chisleu;

And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the SIXTH year of the reign of Darius the king.
 
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summerville

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Yes, it is incumbent upon any accuser to provide scriptural proof of error. NPP fails to do that.
I often see how people whose false beliefs are challenged; get nasty and personal.

Whose capital was Babylon.
The rest of your 'history lesson', is just a forcing in of history to fit prophecy. which fails, as Daniel clearly says he is prophesying about the last days.
There has been a partial fulfilment of Daniels prophesies, but never yet a complete fulfilment.

What about Revelation? Most all of that Book, which parallels Daniels end time prophesies, await fulfillment. As the Lord's servants, we should be aware and ready to endure thru all that must happen before Jesus Returns.

Babylon was not in Persia.
 
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Douggg

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Again; unmitigated Douggish rubbish!
NOWHERE does the Bible say God will take His people to heaven to avoid the Great Tribulation. And as for saying I will have to go thru the GT because I refuse the believe in a 'rapture', then that is an indictment against you for judging a fellow Christian. James 4:11-12

The Jews will be punished for their continued apostasy and rejection of Jesus. Only a remnant will survive, Romans 9:27. Just a few, as Zechariah 13:8-9, Isaiah 6:11-13 say.
Keras, look at the tone of your post. You are the one acting out of character for a Christian, not me.

In conjunction with your no-rapture view, are you not the one who is claiming that after a solar flare destruction of them currently in the middle east; and afterward Christians from around the world will all move into the land of Israel, rename it Beulah, and enter into a covenant with the Antichrist? Do you not think you are going to be in that group, assuming that you are alive at the time?
 
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keras

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Keras, look at the tone of your post. You are the one acting out of character for a Christian, not me.
My tone is forceful, but not rude and accusative.
We have crossed swords for years now and kept reasonably nice. But while you and many others continue to post unbiblical theories and make wrong assumptions about God's Plans; then I will refute you any way I can.
Are you not the one who is claiming that after a solar flare destruction of them currently in the middle east; and afterward Christians from around the world will all move into the land of Israel, rename it Beulah, and enter into a covenant with the Antichrist? Do you not think you are going to be in that group, assuming that you are alive at the time?
Yes; roughly that is what the Prophetic Word tells us will happen.
There will be a world changing event by fire from the sun.
It will wipe out the entire population of the Middle East.
We Christians will gather and live in all of the holy land.
Many of us will agree to a 7 year treaty with the Anti-Christ.
I will be there and I pray for all to stand firm in their faith during the Lord's Day of fiery wrath.
All as plainly stated in all of the Bible prophesies, there is ample proof of this scenario.
 
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Douggg

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We Christians will gather and live in all of the holy land.
Many of us will agree to a 7 year treaty with the Anti-Christ.
I will be there and I pray for all to stand firm in their faith during the Lord's Day of fiery wrath.
All as plainly stated in all of the Bible prophesies, there is ample proof of this scenario.
So, if in your view, you are going to be there, and the nation of Beulah enters into a covenant with the Antichrist; which in a couple years he is central to the abomination of desolation, how are you not going to go through the great tribulation, being in the country?

btw, where is that abomination of desolation going to be placed, physically, in the Christian country of Beulah?
 
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