Is the Sabbath binding.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Dt 27:26
Cursed be the one who is not carrying out all the words of this law to do them. Then all the people will say: Amen!

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I am not sure I understand..Should Christians observe all 600 Jewish laws?

Oscarr said:

Note what Paul said to the Galatians, that they started in the Spirit, having faith alone in Christ, but why are they now trying to maintain their status before God by following the Law? He asked, "Who has bewitched you?" Performance-based Christianity is a lie which will keep folks out of heaven because it is based on self-improvement - and this is more New Age than Biblical Christian living.

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We do not earn our justification by obeying God's law because it was never given for that purpose, which makes it that much more true that we do not earn our justification by obeying the man-made works of the law that Paul was speaking about in that passage. Paul's problem in Galatians was not with those teaching Gentile how to obey God's commands as if obedience to God were somehow a negative thing, but rather his problem was with those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified.

If obedience to God were for God's good, then it would be performance based and would be about earning favor God for which He would be obligated to repay us, however our obedience is for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so obedience is instead about having faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live, and it is by that same faith that we are justified.

Oscarr said:

It is true that God's Law and commands are good and holy. There is nothing wrong with them at all. Paul was quite clear about that. But the Law and commands failed to achieve salvation for mankind, because mankind was so sinful that they could not follow the Law and commands perfectly. This is because just one infraction of the Law and commands brings condemnation. Paul says that if one believes that the following the Law is a requirement for justification, then one should live by it perfectly without even one minor infraction.

One command is that we are to love the Lord with all our hearts, soul and strength and love our neighbor as ourselves. This means that we have to do this to absolute perfection from our youth up. If there is just one period where we have failed in any way to achieve perfection with these commands, we have broken them, and because of it, we have broken the whole Law of God, and are subject to condemnation, and therefore can never be justified before God in this way.

So, if you are advocating following the Law and commands of God, you need to set the example of following them without one single fault from your youth up. If you have failed in just one minor way, then you have transgressed the Law and commands and are in no position to make any requirements for anyone else without being seen as a hypocrite who says that we all should obey the Law and commands of Christ, and yet not being able to do so perfectly yourself.

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The reason why we do not achieve salvation by obeying the law is not because no one could obey it perfectly, but because it was never given for that purpose. In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had already sinned by showing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late, and he was not discouraging them from trying to obey the law, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to do a better job of obeying the law consistently, which would have been pointless if we needed to have perfect obedience for some strange reason. If we break any law and become a lawbreaker, then we need to repent and to return to obedience, which again is precisely what James was encouraging them to do. Again, the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we do not need perfect obedience.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law and in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is disobedience to God's law (1 John 3:4), so being taught by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what being saved from living in disobedience to God's law looks like. Likewise, in Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, so while we are not saved by our obedience to God's law as though it were something that could be earned, it is also true that we are not saved from living in disobedience to God's law while refusing to repent and live in obedience to it by faith.

Yes some did. Tell us Hark, how long are your sideburns? Are you wearing your Tzitzits on the four corners? Where do you send your wife during her monthly time? Are you prepared to tear your house down if you find mold in it? Do you ever speak of worldly things on the Sabbath and turn your foot from doing your own pleasure? It would be fun to shadow you and see if you put your money where your writings are.

HARK! said:

Those aren't Jewish laws. They're YHWH's laws.

There are actually 613; but some apply only to men. Some apply only to the priesthood, etc..

John 14:15

New King James Version
“If you love Me, keep My commandments.

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You're right.. It is 613. Do you think Christians should keep those laws?

HARK! said:

(CLV) 1Co 5:8
so that we may be keeping the festival, not with old leaven, nor yet with the leaven of evil and wickedness, but with unleavened sincerity and truth.



YHWH is my all in all. He is Yahshua's all in all.


(CLV) 1Co 15:24
thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.

(CLV) 1Co 15:25
For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.

(CLV) 1Co 15:26
The last enemy is being abolished death.

(CLV) 1Co 15:27
For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.

(CLV) 1Co 15:28
Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.

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Jesus Christ is God, and so the YHWH of the OT was actually God the Son, because no person has seen the Father at any time. Also, the Scripture says that the person who is filled with the Holy Spirit has also the Father and the Son. This is because there is such unity between the Three, that if we have one Person of the trinity dwelling in us, it is the same as having the other Two as well.

The Son is not inferior to the Father. They are equal, and the Holy Spirit is equal to the Father and the Son.

So that when I say that Jesus Christ is my all in all, then it means that the Father and the Holy Spirit are also my all in all, because all Three are God.

summerville said:

I am not sure I understand..Should Christians observe all 600 Jewish laws?

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Even when the law was first given to Moses, there wasn't a single person who was required to keep all 600+ laws, and not even Jesus kept the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth. Some laws were only for the King, the High Priest, priest, judges, men, women, children, widows, those with servants, those with animals, those with crops, those with tzaraat, those living in the land, and strangers living among them, while others were given to everyone. Furthermore, many other the laws come with conditions under which they should be obeyed, such as the command to keep the Sabbath holy, which should only be obeyed under the condition that it is the 7th day, or laws in regard to temple practice that should only be obeyed under the condition that there is a temple in which to practice them.

When the Israelites were in exile in Egypt, the condition for their return to the land was to first return to obedience to God's law, which required them to have access to a temple that they didn't have access to while they were in exile, so they were nevertheless faithful to do as much as they could of the laws that had their conditions met. Likewise, in 2 Chronicles 30:15-20, Hezekiah prayed that God would pardon everyone who sets his heart to seek God even though not according to the sanctuary's rules of cleanness.

So understanding how the law applies to us today is a careful matter of prayer, study, and leading of the Holy Spirit. However, if we believe that God's law was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13) and that God can be trusted to lead us in how to rightly live through His law, then we will have the attitude of looking for reasons for why we have the delight of getting to obey God's laws rather than the attitude of looking for every excuse under the sun to avoid following God's guidance.

Aussie Pete said:

Yes, and observing the Law is NOT the way through the gate.

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Do you think that refusing to submit to God's law is the way through the gate?

Soyeong said:

Even when the law was first given to Moses, there wasn't a single person who was required to keep all 600+ laws, and not even Jesus kept the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth. Some laws were only for the King, the High Priest, priest, judges, men, women, children, widows, those with servants, those with animals, those with crops, those with tzaraat, those living in the land, and strangers living among them, while others were given to everyone. Furthermore, many other the laws come with conditions under which they should be obeyed, such as the command to keep the Sabbath holy, which should only be obeyed under the condition that it is the 7th day, or laws in regard to temple practice that should only be obeyed under the condition that there is a temple in which to practice them.

When the Israelites were in exile in Egypt, the condition for their return to the land was to first return to obedience to God's law, which required them to have access to a temple that they didn't have access to while they were in exile, so they were nevertheless faithful to do as much as they could of the laws that had their conditions met. Likewise, in 2 Chronicles 30:15-20, Hezekiah prayed that God would pardon everyone who sets his heart to seek God even though not according to the sanctuary's rules of cleanness.

So understanding how the law applies to us today is a careful matter of prayer, study, and leading of the Holy Spirit. However, if we believe that God's law was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13) and that God can be trusted to lead us in how to rightly live through His law, then we will have the attitude of looking for reasons for why we have the delight of getting to obey God's laws rather than the attitude of looking for every excuse under the sun to avoid following God's guidance.

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The laws and rituals of the Jews set them apart from their neighbors, Canaanites, Egyptians, Persians and Asyrians. There was obviously a reason for that. But, remember the people of Judah considered the people of Israel Hellenized half breeds and bad Jews. That in part was the reason they rejected Jesus. He was from Galilee..

Soyeong said:

Likewise, in Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, so while we are not saved by our obedience to God's law as though it were something that could be earned, it is also true that we are not saved from living in disobedience to God's law while refusing to repent and live in obedience to it by faith.

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So what you are saying that we are saved by faith in Christ and not through obedience to the Law, but you are also saying that if we don't obey the Law we are not saved? Isn't that a contradiction?

Isn't that what Paul was taking the Galatians to task about - that they started out in the Spirit by depending on the grace of God through faith in Christ, but now they are trying to continue by obedience to the Law?

In actual fact, the Law has been set aside because it failed, both for salvation and sanctification. We are not subject to the list of legal regulations in the Mosaic Law or even God's moral law at any stage - either when we first start with faith in Christ, to living the Christian life through faith in Christ.

We do not work to improve our righteousness and sanctification through trying to obey God's moral laws. That is mere self-improvement which leads to self-righteousness which is described as filthy rags before God.

If we are doing that, grace is no more grace. The whole principle of grace and mercy is that it is unearned at any stage. There is nothing we can do to earn sanctification. Paul said, "There is nothing good in me, that is, in my flesh". If we are trying to improve ourselves in holiness, all we are doing is to try and improve our flesh, therefore we would be in the flesh and not in the Spirit. And the Scriptures says that those who are in the flesh will never be in the kingdom of God.

So what is the answer? We have the righteousness of Christ which has been given to us as a free gift by God's grace and mercy. If we try to improve our own righteousness, we are rejecting Christ and His righteousness, and therefore Christ would not be of any effect for us.

So, being filled with the Holy Spirit, we become Christ's workmanship and are predestined to become conformed to the image of Christ through His working within us.

The way we develop sanctification is to maintain our faith in Christ, and to conform to the Scripture:
"Be anxious for nothing but by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God, and the peace of God that passes all understanding will keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:6-7).

So instead of trying in our own strength to maintain obedience to the commands of Christ, we continually ask the Lord for grace and strength to allow the Holy Spirit to continue working within us to enable us to become the persons God wants us to be.

Soyeong said:

Do you think that refusing to submit to God's law is the way through the gate?

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The reason why the gate is so narrow is that many cannot believe that salvation comes through faith alone in Christ and cannot be earned through anything they can do.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Jn 14:28
You hear that I said to you, `I am going, and I am coming to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

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Quoting one verse and ignoring other references to the relationship between the Father and the Son, can lead to a skewed appreciation of their true relationship.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Ro 15:6
that, with one accord, with one mouth, you may be glorifying the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(CLV) 1Co 1:3
Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

(CLV) 1Pt 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who, according to His vast mercy, regenerates us into a living expectation, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead,

(CLV) Eph 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ,

(CLV) 1Co 15:24
thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.

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So, what has this to do with keeping the Sabbath as a requirement for Christian believers?

Oscarr said:

So what you are saying that we are saved by faith in Christ and not through obedience to the Law, but you are also saying that if we don't obey the Law we are not saved? Isn't that a contradiction?

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There is a huge difference between saying that we need to obey God's law and saying that we need to obey God's law for the purpose of earning our salvation, and I only said the former, while you have been arguing against the latter. We do not earn our salvation by obeying God's law because it is not something that can be earned that can cause God to be obligated to give to us, yet the process of being saved from living in disobedience to God's law necessarily involves being trained to live in obedience to it. To use an analogy, if a professional musician were to train me how to play an instrument as a free gift to me, then the training itself would be the content of the gift and participating in that training would be doing nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it would look like to receive their gift.

In the same way, in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what God's law was given to instruct us how to do, so being trained by grace to obey God's law through faith is itself the content of the free gift and participating in that training would be doing nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it would look like to receive it.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so obedience to it what faith in Christ looks like. Only those who have faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live will obey His law and will be justified by that same faith, which is why Paul said that only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), but notably did not say that we earn our justification by obeying the law. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13), and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so someone who refuses to obey it is refusing to have faith in God to guide them in how they should live, which is why they won't be justified, and why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works.

Isn't that what Paul was taking the Galatians to task about - that they started out in the Spirit by depending on the grace of God through faith in Christ, but now they are trying to continue by obedience to the Law?

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Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law, such as God's law, works of the law, and the law of sin, so it is important to correctly determine which law he was speaking about. For example, in Romans 7:25, Paul contrasted God's law with the law of sin, and in Romans 3:27, he contrasted a law that was of works with a law that was of faith. Paul was not an enemy of God, so it should be absurd to interpret Galatians as Paul warning us against obeying God's law, but rather his problem was with those teaching Gentiles that they needed to obey their works of the law in order to become justified. God's law is trustworthy, so was can confidently rely on it to guide us, but should not rely on works of the law because they are not of faith in God.

In actual fact, the Law has been set aside because it failed, both for salvation and sanctification. We are not subject to the list of legal regulations in the Mosaic Law or even God's moral law at any stage - either when we first start with faith in Christ, to living the Christian life through faith in Christ.

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God's law straightforwardly does what it was given to do and does not do what it was not given to do, and to say that it failed is to say that the Lawgiver failed, but He has not failed. Rather, we do not earn our salvation or sanctification by obeying the law not because it failed, but because it was never given for those purposes.

Christ set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it even if he had said nothing, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), so becoming a follower of Christ is about seeing what he was doing and wanting to become part of that. Putting our faith in Christ is never treated as all alternative to obeying what he taught, but rather that is how we are to put our faith in him.

The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is God's law. We are either under God's law and are obligated to refrain from sin, or are not under God's law, have no obligation to refrain from sin, have no need of salvation from our sin, and have no need of Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness. However, God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and are obligated to refrain from sin regardless of which covenant we are under. For example, God judged the world with the Flood for their wickedness even though they weren't even if a covenant relationship with Him. They didn't get to choose whether or not they wanted to be under God's law, and neither do we, but rather the choice that we do get to make is whether we are going to heed the Gospel message, repent, and obey.

We do not work to improve our righteousness and sanctification through trying to obey God's moral laws. That is mere self-improvement which leads to self-righteousness which is described as filthy rags before God.

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If God's law were His instructions for how to become self-righteous and God doesn't want us to become self-righteous, then it would follow that God therefore does not want to be obeyed, which is absurd especially considering that all throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, therefore it was not given as instructions for how to become self-righteous, but as instructions for how to express God's righteousness. In Isaiah 64:6, it is not God speaking, but rather it is the people complaining about how they thought God viewed their actions because He was not coming down and making His presence known. However, the reality is that the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8).

If we are doing that, grace is no more grace. The whole principle of grace and mercy is that it is unearned at any stage. There is nothing we can do to earn sanctification. Paul said, "There is nothing good in me, that is, in my flesh". If we are trying to improve ourselves in holiness, all we are doing is to try and improve our flesh, therefore we would be in the flesh and not in the Spirit. And the Scriptures says that those who are in the flesh will never be in the kingdom of God.

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The Bible never describes seeking by faith to obey God as being in the flesh, but rather that is always disobedience to it. For example, in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh, who are enemies of God, and who refuse to submit to God's law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. After all, the Mosaic Law was given by God and the Spirit is God, so it is the Law of the Spirit.

So what is the answer? We have the righteousness of Christ which has been given to us as a free gift by God's grace and mercy. If we try to improve our own righteousness, we are rejecting Christ and His righteousness, and therefore Christ would not be of any effect for us.

So, being filled with the Holy Spirit, we become Christ's workmanship and are predestined to become conformed to the image of Christ through His working within us.

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Christ is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), he expressed only that nature through his actions, and what that looked like was sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, so there is no sense in wanting to to be conformed by the image of Christ while wanting nothing to do with his image. The reason why we have received the righteousness of Christ was not in order to hide it under a bushel, but in order to let it shine through our obedience to God's law in accordance with how Christ expressed his righteousness.

So instead of trying in our own strength to maintain obedience to the commands of Christ, we continually ask the Lord for grace and strength to allow the Holy Spirit to continue working within us to enable us to become the persons God wants us to be.

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Obedience to God's commands has never been about what we can accomplish through our own strength, but about having faith in God to guide us. In Revelation 14:12, those who keep the commandments of God are the same as those who keep their faith in Jesus. Why do you think that the becoming the persons that God wants us to be looks like something other than following God's commands?