Daniel's 70th week

jgr said:

True. But from the beginning of covenant history, God extended His covenant to both Jew and Gentile. (Genesis 17:12).

Therefore, confining the meaning of "generation" in Matthew 24:34 to the Jewish race is inconsistent with the heterogeneous ethnic composition of the nation of Israel from its beginning.

Which is why "generation" in that verse means "all of those living at that time", as shown in the lexicon to which I've linked previously.



As shown previously, verse 34 (not 36, my typo) is the demarcation. Everything prior to it refers to the 70 AD period, using the language of the ancient metaphoric apocalyptic idiom, of which there are numerous OT examples. Psalm 18 is equally as dramatic as Matthew 24, wherein David declares that the Lord came down (Psalm 18:9). Other examples have been cited by others in their posts.

In verse 29, Jesus declares that the phenomena which would follow would occur immediately after the tribulation of those days. There is only one other reference to tribulation in the chapter. It is in verse 21, referring to the tribulation of the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea, which is unparalleled before or after in the annals of history.


Everything after verse 34 refers to the Second Coming.

Jesus answered His disciples' questions in their entirety.

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God focused His grace upon the physical children of Abraham from Abraham right up until the cross. That is beyond dispute.

Exodus 33:13-16: “Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people. And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest. And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence. For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.”

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 confirms, “For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”

Deuteronomy 14:2 declares: “for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.”

Deuteronomy 26:18-27:1: “And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments; And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken.”

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 tells us: “When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.”

Deuteronomy 33:29: “Happy art thou, O Israel: who is like unto thee, O people saved by the LORD, the shield of thy help, and who is the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places.”

2 Samuel 7:23-24 says: “And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods? For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God.”

Psalm 135:4 records: “For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.”

Psalm 147:19-20: “He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation.”

Amos 3:2 confirms this, saying of Israel: “You only have I known of all the families of the earth.”

Zechariah 2:8 declares: “For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.”

Acts 14:16 confirms that God “in times past (talking about before the cross) suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.”

Ephesians 2:11-12: "remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world."

jgr said:

The counter-question would be:

How did the generation living at that time experience the Second Coming?

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Please answer my 2 questions before I reply.

sovereigngrace said:

God focused His grace upon the physical children of Abraham from Abraham right up until the cross. That is beyond dispute.

Exodus 33:13-16: “Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people. And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest. And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence. For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.”

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 confirms, “For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”

Deuteronomy 14:2 declares: “for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.”

Deuteronomy 26:18-27:1: “And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments; And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken.”

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 tells us: “When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.”

Deuteronomy 33:29: “Happy art thou, O Israel: who is like unto thee, O people saved by the LORD, the shield of thy help, and who is the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places.”

2 Samuel 7:23-24 says: “And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods? For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God.”

Psalm 135:4 records: “For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.”

Psalm 147:19-20: “He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation.”

Amos 3:2 confirms this, saying of Israel: “You only have I known of all the families of the earth.”

Zechariah 2:8 declares: “For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.”

Acts 14:16 confirms that God “in times past (talking about before the cross) suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.”

Ephesians 2:11-12: "remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world."

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He focused His grace upon the faithful obedient remnant within Israel, irrespective of pedigree. (Exodus 12:48,49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22; 1 Kings 19:18; Isaiah 1:9; Isaiah 10:22; Jeremiah 31:7; Joel 2:32; Zephaniah 3:13; Romans 9:27; Romans 11:5)

The unfaithful and disobedient, He slew by the thousands, irrespective of pedigree. (Exodus 32:28, Numbers 16:49, 1 Samuel 4:10, 2 Chronicles 13:17).

sovereigngrace said:

Please answer my 2 questions before I reply.

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I cannot answer your questions.

Can you answer mine?

1. How did the generation living at that time experience the Second Coming?
2. How did the Second Coming occur immediately after the tribulation of 70 AD?

jgr said:

I cannot answer your questions.

Can you answer mine?

1. How did the generation living at that time experience the Second Coming?
2. How did the Second Coming occur immediately after the tribulation of 70 AD?

Click to expand...

Ok. So, I believe Christ's shift to answering the second question (re the future second coming) comes in Matthew 24:23, Mark 13:21 and Luke 21:25. These are all parallel accounts. Our Lord describes events that will precede His return, and then speaks about that climactic event also. The detail re generation speaks that genea alive when He returns in power and glory.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:23-51: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. gē] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Jesus said in Mark 13:21-37: “And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. gē] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:25-36: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. gē] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

sovereigngrace said:

Ok. So, I believe Christ's shift to answering the second question (re the future second coming) comes in Matthew 24:23, Mark 13:21 and Luke 21:25. These are all parallel accounts. Our Lord describes events that will precede His return, and then speaks about that climactic event also. The detail re generation speaks that genea alive when He returns in power and glory.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:23-51: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. gē] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Jesus said in Mark 13:21-37: “And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. gē] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:25-36: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. gē] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

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It appears that we'll have to declare a stalemate, as I haven't answered your questions, and you haven't answered mine.

Are you OK with that?

jgr said:

It appears that we'll have to declare a stalemate, as I haven't answered your questions, and you haven't answered mine.

Are you OK with that?

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It is hard to accept this if you have been taught that "this generation" is only talking about 2000 years ago. The context here is right in the middle of describing the second coming.

sovereigngrace said:

It is hard to accept this if you have been taught that "this generation" is only talking about 2000 years ago. The context here is right in the middle of describing the second coming.

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Nonetheless, we are still at a stalemate.

I haven't been taught it. I've simply accepted the meaning of the word as used there in Scripture.

jgr said:

Nonetheless, we are still at a stalemate.

I haven't been taught it. I've simply accepted the meaning of the word as used there in Scripture.

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Understand! We will both need to keep digging. Appreciate your writings and insight, by the way.

I have asked those same questions (and various others) to Preterists and I am not getting viable answers. That is why I do not feel the text does not belong to 2000 years ago.

sovereigngrace said:

Understand! We will both need to keep digging. Appreciate your writings and insight, by the way.

I have asked those same questions (and various others) to Preterists and I am not getting viable answers. That is why I do not feel the text does not belong to 2000 years ago.

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So be it. Appreciate your contributions as well. There is far more that unites us than divides us.

jgr said:

So be it. Appreciate your contributions as well. There is far more that unites us than divides us.

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Absolutely!

The fig tree illustration nails it down. The generation that sees the events pass that Jesus mentioned between verses 3 & 33 is the generation of his return.

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

sovereigngrace said:

There are no direct explicit statements to support your position. All you have are elaborate theories. This is typical of your doctrine.

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This is pretty generic, I could say the same about your posts. Let's stick to more objective and specific discussions. For example, You could say your interpretation of verse "x" is wrong because of "y". This would be more fruitful and would be in line with forum rules.

sovereigngrace said:

It is always 2+2+2=222, whereas it really equals 6. That is not how biblical interpretation works.

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How about using evidence, instead of making up incorrect math calculations. I could easily say the same about your arguments. Let's be more objective, please.

sovereigngrace said:

Hades is not even mentioned in Hebrews 9:6-10. Where are your proof texts?

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I agree Hades/the grave is not mentioned in Hebrews 9:6-10. Hebrews 9:6-10 is in regard to a parable: By the priests performing their duties in the temple, the Holy Spirit indicated through this symbolism, that the way into the holy places was not yet manifested.

The scriptures literally say that while the first tabernacle IS STANDING (present tense verb) the way into the most holy place is not yet manifested. It then even adds, this is symbolic for THE PRESENT AGE.

So instead of making up incorrect math calculations, you need to explain how the present standing temple at the time of the writer of Hebrews does not symbolize that the way into the holy places was not yet manifested.

Was the earthly tabernacle standing at the time of the writing of Hebrews?
Were priests still performing their duties at the time of the writing of Hebrews?

If so, what did that symbolize?

sovereigngrace said:

2 Corinthians 5:1-2 is talking about a future hope over the grave.

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I agree. But that doesn't answer my question. Do you believe those in Christ go naked into heaven?

Paul states that we are not naked, but further clothed when we go home to be with the Lord. So how can Amils teach that we go to heaven prior to the resurrection?

2 corinthians 5:2-4 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

Why would we go to heaven PRIOR to the resurrection, if Jesus went to heaven AFTER the resurrection?

sovereigngrace said:

Matthew 24:29-31 is speaking about the second coming.

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I believe Matthew 24:29-31 is talking about the coming judgment of Christ on Israel because Jesus states "this generation" will not pass away until all these things occur. (matthew 24:34).

genea is never translated as anything other than generation in any Bible translation.

Thayer's lexicon specifically has the genea of Matthew 24:34 as meaning "the whole multitude of men living at the same time".

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).

sovereigngrace said:

When did/does that happen?

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When do those in Christ go to heaven upon death? This transition occurred during the 1st century. I would argue this transition occurred around 66-70ad.

When do you believe the transition took place for believers to go to heaven upon death, and what scripture do you use to support that?

claninja said:

This is pretty generic, I could say the same about your posts. Let's stick to more objective and specific discussions. For example, You could say your interpretation of verse "x" is wrong because of "y". This would be more fruitful and would be in line with forum rules.



How about using evidence, instead of making up incorrect math calculations. I could easily say the same about your arguments. Let's be more objective, please.



I agree Hades/the grave is not mentioned in Hebrews 9:6-10. Hebrews 9:6-10 is in regard to a parable: By the priests performing their duties in the temple, the Holy Spirit indicated through this symbolism, that the way into the holy places was not yet manifested.

The scriptures literally say that while the first tabernacle IS STANDING (present tense verb) the way into the most holy place is not yet manifested. It then even adds, this is symbolic for THE PRESENT AGE.

So instead of making up incorrect math calculations, you need to explain how the present standing temple at the time of the writer of Hebrews does not symbolize that the way into the holy places was not yet manifested.

Was the earthly tabernacle standing at the time of the writing of Hebrews?
Were priests still performing their duties at the time of the writing of Hebrews?

If so, what did that symbolize?




I agree. But that doesn't answer my question. Do you believe those in Christ go naked into heaven?

Paul states that we are not naked, but further clothed when we go home to be with the Lord. So how can Amils teach that we go to heaven prior to the resurrection?

2 corinthians 5:2-4 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

Why would we go to heaven PRIOR to the resurrection, if Jesus went to heaven AFTER the resurrection?



I believe Matthew 24:29-31 is talking about the coming judgment of Christ on Israel because Jesus states "this generation" will not pass away until all these things occur. (matthew 24:34).

genea is never translated as anything other than generation in any Bible translation.

Thayer's lexicon specifically has the genea of Matthew 24:34 as meaning "the whole multitude of men living at the same time".

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).



When do those in Christ go to heaven upon death? This transition occurred during the 1st century. I would argue this transition occurred around 66-70ad.

When do you believe the transition took place for believers to go to heaven upon death, and what scripture do you use to support that?

Click to expand...

You give a validity to the temple between AD30 and AD70 that is unknown to the Scripture. It was rendered redundant through the cross. Also, you argue from silence. You have zero Scripture to support your theory. This is all speculationism.

The word genea means:

1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Different translations and Bible scholars interpret it in different ways. Many good Bible students see it my way, many your way. I do not limit its meaning to a 40-year generation as Preterism must to sustain its school of thought. It can equally and fairly broadly describe a time-periods (a literal generation or age) or natural descendants (a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits or men of the same stock).

The root word for genea is genos (Strong’s 1085), which means race, kindred, offspring, family, stock, tribe, nation, i.e. nationality or descent from a particular people.

Acts 13:26 talks about “children of the stock [Gr. genos] of Abraham” and Philippians 3:5 those “of the stock [Gr. genos] of Israel.” The Bible is here speaking in a natural sense.

The root word of genos is ginomai (Strong’s 1096), which literally means to gen-erate.

Matthew 24:34 is telling us that the Jewish race would not pass away until all things are fulfilled. Israel is an ongoing generation.

claninja said:

This is pretty generic, I could say the same about your posts. Let's stick to more objective and specific discussions. For example, You could say your interpretation of verse "x" is wrong because of "y". This would be more fruitful and would be in line with forum rules.



How about using evidence, instead of making up incorrect math calculations. I could easily say the same about your arguments. Let's be more objective, please.



I agree Hades/the grave is not mentioned in Hebrews 9:6-10. Hebrews 9:6-10 is in regard to a parable: By the priests performing their duties in the temple, the Holy Spirit indicated through this symbolism, that the way into the holy places was not yet manifested.

The scriptures literally say that while the first tabernacle IS STANDING (present tense verb) the way into the most holy place is not yet manifested. It then even adds, this is symbolic for THE PRESENT AGE.

So instead of making up incorrect math calculations, you need to explain how the present standing temple at the time of the writer of Hebrews does not symbolize that the way into the holy places was not yet manifested.

Was the earthly tabernacle standing at the time of the writing of Hebrews?
Were priests still performing their duties at the time of the writing of Hebrews?

If so, what did that symbolize?




I agree. But that doesn't answer my question. Do you believe those in Christ go naked into heaven?

Paul states that we are not naked, but further clothed when we go home to be with the Lord. So how can Amils teach that we go to heaven prior to the resurrection?

2 corinthians 5:2-4 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

Why would we go to heaven PRIOR to the resurrection, if Jesus went to heaven AFTER the resurrection?



I believe Matthew 24:29-31 is talking about the coming judgment of Christ on Israel because Jesus states "this generation" will not pass away until all these things occur. (matthew 24:34).

genea is never translated as anything other than generation in any Bible translation.

Thayer's lexicon specifically has the genea of Matthew 24:34 as meaning "the whole multitude of men living at the same time".

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).



When do those in Christ go to heaven upon death? This transition occurred during the 1st century. I would argue this transition occurred around 66-70ad.

When do you believe the transition took place for believers to go to heaven upon death, and what scripture do you use to support that?

Click to expand...

Look what happened before and after AD70.

Jesus said to the dying thief, in Luke 23:43, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Acts 7:59-60 records, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

Stephen’s spirit was separating from his body and went to be with God. However, his body was going to the grave.

2 Corinthians 5:8 says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather ‘to be absent’ from the body, and ‘to be present’ with the Lord."

‘ekdeemeesai’ – ‘be absent’

‘endeemeesai’ – ‘be present’

Paul said in Philippians 1:21-24 says, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”

Death was a promotion for Paul!!!

1 Thessalonians 5:10 tells us that Christ “died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”

The writer to the Hebrews censures such a foolish earthly notion of focusing upon the physical Jerusalem below, in Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, saying, “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest …but ye are come unto mount sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.”

Revelation 14:13 agrees: “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

In Revelation 4:4, 10, 5:8, 14, 11:6, 19:4, we see 24 Elders around the throne in heaven. Who are they? Also, in Revelation 7 we see several references to 144,000 in heaven that have been redeemed from off the earth. Who are they?

Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them.”

And continues, “I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Revelation 6:9-10 similarly says, “I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

Revelation 6:9-10 – the fifth seal – is unquestionably speaking (1) of heaven and also (2) of a time prior to the Second Advent and the day of God’s wrath – the sixth seal.

The very next verse of this narrative (6:11) says, “And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

Here we clearly have a heavenly scene, and a heavenly scene in this present period of time. It reveals the risen saints in glory awaiting the consummation of all things.

Revelation 15:1-3 says, “I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, andover his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the lamb, saying, great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.”

Again this relates to the intra-Advent period. Also, there is no doubt that this scene is in heaven and that “victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name” evidently meant martyrdom for those in view. However, absent from the body for the believer assuredly means present with the Lord in His heavenly abode.

Revelation 7:9-14 adds further light on the matter, saying, “I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb…one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they? And I said unto him, sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

Here are what the dead in Christ are clothed with - Christ's robes of righteousness. They are far from naked and exposed.

The souls are therefore identified here as (1) the redeemed and are clearly located (2) in heaven.

Verse 15 continues, “Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.”

sovereigngrace said:

You give a validity to the temple between AD30 and AD70 that is unknown to the Scripture.

Click to expand...

Unknown in scripture? Jews living in Jerusalem, who were Christians, were zealous of the Law. They even urged Paul to take part in in a vow and make an offering in temple.

Acts 21:20-26 When they heard this, they glorified God. Then they said to Paul, “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. But they are under the impression that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe our customs. What then should we do? They will certainly hear that you have come.Therefore do what we advise you. There are four men with us who have taken a vow. Take these men, purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is no truth to these rumors about you, but that you also live in obedience to the law.As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they must abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality So the next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he entered the temple to give notice of the date when their purification would be complete and the offering would be made for each of them.

sovereigngrace said:

The word genea means:

1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Click to expand...

What Bible translation translates genea as anything other than "generation"

sovereigngrace said:

Different translations and Bible scholars interpret it in different ways. Many good Bible students see it my way, many your way. I do not limit its meaning to a 40-year generation as Preterism must to sustain its school of thought. It can equally and fairly broadly describe a time-periods (a literal generation or age) or natural descendants (a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits or men of the same stock).

Click to expand...

WHat Bible translation translates genea as anything other than "generation"

You have to address that Thayer's lexicon has the genea of Matthew 24:34 as meaning "the whole multitude of men living at the same time" and not race.
3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).

sovereigngrace said:

The root word for genea is genos (Strong’s 1085), which means race, kindred, offspring, family, stock, tribe, nation, i.e. nationality or descent from a particular people.

Acts 13:26 talks about “children of the stock [Gr. genos] of Abraham” and Philippians 3:5 those “of the stock [Gr. genos] of Israel.” The Bible is here speaking in a natural sense.

The root word of genos is ginomai (Strong’s 1096), which literally means to gen-erate.

Matthew 24:34 is telling us that the Jewish race would not pass away until all things are fulfilled. Israel is an ongoing generation.

Click to expand...

Genos is not found in Matthew 24:34, Genea is. while genos is translated as "of the stock". Genea is never translated that way.

Can you provide a Bible translation that translates "genea" as anything other than generation, to support your opinion?

sovereigngrace said:

You give a validity to the temple between AD30 and AD70 that is unknown to the Scripture. It was rendered redundant through the cross. Also, you argue from silence. You have zero Scripture to support your theory. This is all speculationism.

The word genea means:

1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Different translations and Bible scholars interpret it in different ways. Many good Bible students see it my way, many your way. I do not limit its meaning to a 40-year generation as Preterism must to sustain its school of thought. It can equally and fairly broadly describe a time-periods (a literal generation or age) or natural descendants (a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits or men of the same stock).

The root word for genea is genos (Strong’s 1085), which means race, kindred, offspring, family, stock, tribe, nation, i.e. nationality or descent from a particular people.

Acts 13:26 talks about “children of the stock [Gr. genos] of Abraham” and Philippians 3:5 those “of the stock [Gr. genos] of Israel.” The Bible is here speaking in a natural sense.

The root word of genos is ginomai (Strong’s 1096), which literally means to gen-erate.

Matthew 24:34 is telling us that the Jewish race would not pass away until all things are fulfilled. Israel is an ongoing generation.

Click to expand...

As shown in numerous citations previously, Israel was multiracial from its beginning, and throughout its entire history.

The judgment of 70 AD fell upon the entire nation, not just upon its Jewish constituency.

Which is further confirmation that "generation" in Matthew 24:34 means "the whole multitiude of men living at the same time" i.e living at that time.

Not the Jewish race.

jgr said:

As shown in numerous citations previously, Israel was multiracial from its beginning, and throughout its entire history.

The judgment of 70 AD fell upon the entire nation, not just upon its Jewish constituency.

Which is further confirmation that "generation" in Matthew 24:34 means "the whole multitiude of men living at the same time" i.e living at that time.

Not the Jewish race.

Click to expand...

We are going to have to disagree on this. God judged the Jewish people for crucifying their Savior. That is a fact. They still will not embrace Him.

claninja said:

Unknown in scripture? Jews living in Jerusalem, who were Christians, were zealous of the Law. They even urged Paul to take part in in a vow and make an offering in temple.

Acts 21:20-26 When they heard this, they glorified God. Then they said to Paul, “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. But they are under the impression that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe our customs. What then should we do? They will certainly hear that you have come.Therefore do what we advise you. There are four men with us who have taken a vow. Take these men, purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is no truth to these rumors about you, but that you also live in obedience to the law.As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they must abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality So the next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he entered the temple to give notice of the date when their purification would be complete and the offering would be made for each of them.



What Bible translation translates genea as anything other than "generation"



WHat Bible translation translates genea as anything other than "generation"

You have to address that Thayer's lexicon has the genea of Matthew 24:34 as meaning "the whole multitude of men living at the same time" and not race.
3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).



Genos is not found in Matthew 24:34, Genea is. while genos is translated as "of the stock". Genea is never translated that way.

Can you provide a Bible translation that translates "genea" as anything other than generation, to support your opinion?

Click to expand...

As I posted above, there were two questions asked by the disciples, one related to AD70, the second related to Christ's climatic future coming. I believe Christ's shift to answering the second question (re the future second coming) comes in Matthew 24:23, Mark 13:21 and Luke 21:25. These are all parallel accounts. Our Lord describes events that will precede His return, and then speaks about that climactic event also. The detail re generation speaks that genea alive when He returns in power and glory.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:23-51: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. gē] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Jesus said in Mark 13:21-37: “And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. gē] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:25-36: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. gē] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

jgr said:

As shown in numerous citations previously, Israel was multiracial from its beginning, and throughout its entire history.

The judgment of 70 AD fell upon the entire nation, not just upon its Jewish constituency.

Which is further confirmation that "generation" in Matthew 24:34 means "the whole multitiude of men living at the same time" i.e living at that time.

Not the Jewish race.

Click to expand...

There were 11 witnesses that saw Jesus taken up in a cloud into heaven. What witnesses do we have that actually saw Jesus come in AD70 literally, physically and visibly?

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden, visible and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret appearance in this text.