Seeking a personal encounter with God

Tone

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."
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I received the gift of tongues when I was in a program called Teen Challenge, years ago. It was accompanied by a real felt Presence of the Ruach ha Kodesh (Holy Breath of Yah), and I entered other realms of higher sight and understanding (this is how I can explain it). Have you ever been overcome with His Presence? There have been long periods of time where I didn't exercise the gift, but I know that He makes intercession for me (you too) with deep groans which cannot be uttered:

Romans 8:26
"25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."

Lately, I have been praying in tongues a lot...I know that there is much debate about this topic, but I can only share my experience and, in faith I use this gift and I know that it is effective.

All this to say that I hope and pray that Abba Yah would Breathe deeply into every aspect of your being and make His Presence known to you in a way that will give you what you need and/or desire, so that you will be empowered to work the good works that He has prepared for you, in Yahshua ha Mashiach (Jesus [His Salvation] the Messiah). Amen.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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@TruthSeek3rHave you ever been overcome with His Presence?

Not yet.

Lately, I have been praying in tongues a lot...I know that there is much debate about this topic, but I can only share my experience and, in faith I use this gift and I know that it is effective.

Yes I know there is a lot of controversy about the gift of tongues, and of course I would love to be granted that gift if God so pleases. But as far as I understand this is just one of many gifts, and I think it would be a mistake to equate the baptism of the holy spirit to speaking in tongues. For example, in the book of Acts other manifestations of the baptism in the Holy Spirit are prophesying and preaching the gospel with boldness, not always the gift of tongues is present. For instance:

Acts 4:23-31
"23And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. 24And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: 25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? 26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. 29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. 31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness."

In 1 Corinthians 12 the apostle Paul confirms this, that not everybody is necessarily expected to exercise all the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:4-13
"4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

1 Corinthians 12:28-31
"28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way."

So yeah, I would love to receive the gift of tongues, but I also know that it's not the only gift. But rather than looking for gifts, what I'm looking for is a personal encounter with God. If afterwards it is in God's perfect will to bless me with spiritual gifts (tongues or any other gift), I'm more than happy and willing to receive them.
 
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Tone

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What I was trying to convey when I said "overcome" was a sense of being submerged , as in baptism...this is what the experience was like.

this is just one of many gifts, and I think it would be a mistake to equate the baptism of the holy spirit to speaking in tongues.

Yes, I agree that there are other gifts, which is why I prayed, "...make His Presence known to you in a way that will give you what you need and/or desire, so that you will be empowered to work...".

But rather than looking for gifts, what I'm looking for is a personal encounter with God.

Yes, and a Personal encounter with Him will be accompanied by Power from on High. Yah bless you brother, shalom!
 
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TruthSeek3r

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Update: Day 48. Still seeking an encounter with God but no answer yet :-(
I need some advise. How can I endure a long period of seeking a personal encounter with God, with days and weeks going by, but God is giving no answer and nothing seems to happen? How should I interpret God's apparent refraining from answering my request to have a personal encounter with Him? Am I doing something wrong? Should I change my approach? I need some counseling.
 
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Dave G.

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You completely miss the point that an encounter of supernatural proportions is secondary at best. Not to mention you have a common encounter every morning when you wake up and are breathing and have life. Your days are numbered as are the hairs in your head and you're taken out at the appropriated day and time assigned to you by non other than God. But as to signs of a supernatural type you may or may not ever see one. You must believe even if by a speck and take that to him ( Him being Jesus Christ). And as Carl stated you must be born again, you then become a child of God. That's regardless of any particular sign or wonder. From there more and more faith will grow, more grace, more mercy. He reveals Himself sometimes in very very different ways than we expect and people miss it completely. Sometimes in scripture ( often actually), sometimes we see Him in other people when we least expect it. Nature, environment, circumstances of our lives that work out with no seeming explanation. Shut doors within our lives, open doors. Not everyone sees burning bushes lol !! Most of us will see at least one angel, maybe more and just mistake them for another person because angels unawares come dressed and looking just like everyone else.Encountering an angel sent from God is special in it's own right but certainly an encounter from God.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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You completely miss the point that an encounter of supernatural proportions is secondary at best. Not to mention you have a common encounter every morning when you wake up and are breathing and have life. Your days are numbered as are the hairs in your head and you're taken out at the appropriated day and time assigned to you by non other than God. But as to signs of a supernatural type you may or may not ever see one. You must believe even if by a speck and take that to him ( Him being Jesus Christ). And as Carl stated you must be born again, you then become a child of God. That's regardless of any particular sign or wonder. From there more and more faith will grow, more grace, more mercy. He reveals Himself sometimes in very very different ways than we expect and people miss it completely. Sometimes in scripture ( often actually), sometimes we see Him in other people when we least expect it. Nature, environment, circumstances of our lives that work out with no seeming explanation. Shut doors within our lives, open doors. Not everyone sees burning bushes lol !! Most of us will see at least one angel, maybe more and just mistake them for another person because angels unawares come dressed and looking just like everyone else.Encountering an angel sent from God is special in it's own right but certainly an encounter from God.

But what about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? That's a supernatural experience that every born-again Christian should pursue according to the New Testament, right?
 
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Dave G.

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But what about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? That's a supernatural experience that every born-again Christian should pursue according to the New Testament, right?
For most Christians this comes in the form of an appetite change or shift for "the things" of your life and a new gift or two.

When you are born again you will receive the Spirit. And that isn't always a book of Acts kind of evidence. The evidence is in your daily life, you are a changed person. Don't let the charismatics dictate how it's "supposed" to look to you personally. Chasing signs and wonders is no more Christian than quiet prayer life, the real change is in the heart, that you seek and speak Christ Jesus.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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For most Christians this comes in the form of an appetite change or shift for "the things" of your life and a new gift or two.

When you are born again you will receive the Spirit. And that isn't always a book of Acts kind of evidence. The evidence is in your daily life, you are a changed person. Don't let the charismatics dictate how it's "supposed" to look to you personally. Chasing signs and wonders is no more Christian than quiet prayer life, the real change is in the heart, that you seek and speak Christ Jesus.

But 1) receiving the Holy Spirit and 2) being baptized in the Holy Spirit are 2 different experiences, right?

For instance, in John 20:19-23 we read:

19Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

This means the apostles received the Holy Spirit when Jesus was still on Earth after his resurrection.

But then in Acts 1:4-9 we read:

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

And in Acts 2:1-5 we read:

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

So here we clearly see that the apostles received the Holy Spirit from Jesus (experience 1) but later on in Pentecost they were filled with the Holy Spirit (experience 2). So they are 2 separate experiences. And the latter is clearly a supernatural and powerful experience.

For additional evidence, take a look at this example:

Acts 19:1-7
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7And all the men were about twelve.

In this example we see born-again believers who repented and were baptized in water, but who had not been baptized in the Holy Spirit yet. And when they did by Paul laying hands upon them, they had a supernatural experience (they spoke in tongues and prophesied). So we clearly see again that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is supernatural and is an experience that can happen after salvation (a second experience).

Here another example. Acts 4:29-32:
29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. 31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. 32And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

So we see servants (born-again Christians) being filled with the Holy Spirit, the place was shaken, and they spoke the word of God with boldness as a result. So clearly it was a supernatural experience that happened after conversion.

We also see the apostle Paul encouraging the seeking of this fullness:

Ephesians 5:18-20
18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

In fact, in the book of Acts we see another example of how important the fullness of the Holy Spirit was regarded by the apostles:

Acts 6:1-4:
1And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration. 2Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. 3Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. 4But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word. 5And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: 6Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

In short: being filled with the Holy Spirit is super important according to the early church, it's strongly encouraged by the apostle Paul, there are many examples in the book of Acts that the experience of being filled / baptized with the Holy Spirit is supernatural and that it happens after conversion (e.g. the apostles in Pentecost and many other examples), there might be manifestations of spiritual gifts (e.g. tongues, prophesying) or supernatural manifestations in the environment (the building shaking, etc.) but a common manifestation is a supernatural empowerment to be witness of Jesus Christ and preach the gospel with boldness.

Moreover, I've spent quite a while researching this and I know tons of testimonies of people, nowadays, testifying the supernatural experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit. And the experience is real. It's an experience. It is not something that you blindly believe that you have. When it happens, you know it. I can share tons of testimonies about this with you if you want, just let me know.
 
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tturt

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Yes receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptized in the Holy Spirit is 2 different experiences.

Upon salvation, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into Jesus, another believer baptizes us with water and Jesus baptizes us with or into the Holy Spirit.

There's a doctrine of baptisms,..." (Heb 6:2) There's 3 baptisms; specifically:

1 - By The Holy Spirit into Jesus is the baptism for salvation
(Rev 1:5; Matt 26:28; Mark 1:4, 16:16; Luk 3:3; Acts 2:38: (Heb 9:22, I Pet 3:21) Also, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise," (Eph 1:13) Baptizied, immersed fully, into Christ's body (I Cor 12:13)

Water and Spirit baptism follows - not in a set order or time criteria:
2 - By another believer (water baptism) (Matt 28:19++++!)
3 - By Jesus with or into The Holy Spirit (The Spirit baptism)
(Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16; Acts 11:16++++)' "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.." Gal 3:27 Asks Him for the Holy Spirit (Luk 11:13), receive power and boldness, (Acts 1 and 4).

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." I John 5:7-8

As you posted there is a diversities of tongues and how the original disciples were continually filled. I believe a misplaced question mark causes some of the confusion "Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" There wouldn't be any purpose for a message in tongues for interpretation if every believer had that gift. Also, there is prayer language. It is for all believers because tongues are a sign (To unbelievers - By believers (I Cor 14:22 and Mark 16:1).

Watched the testimonies and both of them are good. The first one brought in his views on public issues. But the second guy has already studied Scripture a considerable amount so his perspective is based on his experience and the Word.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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Update: Day 67. Still seeking. Still no answer. Surfing the coronavirus outbreak wave in the meantime.
As always, I've been watching more testimonies. In particular I came across 3 very POWERFUL testimonies. Check them out:

1) Former Kundalini Yoga Teacher Reveals All (Mike Shreve)

2) From Atheist To Believer In Jesus Christ - How Jesus Cured My Eating Disorder - Christian Testimony

3) Best of FOTM - Doug met Jesus in PERSON.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Hi. New to this forum. I just want to share with others my desire to have a personal encounter with God. To very briefly introduce the context and motivation of my search, I think it basically reduces to a combination of 1) me having several episodes of existential crisis (being agnostic, not knowing the purpose of life, not being able to successfully build an "artificial purpose" to motivate myself either), 2) watching tons of testimonies about the existence of a spiritual world (testimonies from the new age, witchcraft, occultism, psychic powers, reiki, psychedelics, ayahuasca, DMT, astral projection, remote viewing, spirit guides, paranormal activities, also testimonies about the Holy Spirit, God, Jesus, etc.), and particularly 3) watching testimonies of people who were once involved in occultist practices and due to different life circumstances ended up finding Jesus and becoming Christians, having supernatural experiences both before and after their conversions. Here are some example testimonies of point 3 available on YouTube (some of them uploaded very recently actually):
So basically I've watched many testimonies as the ones linked above and more, and I got to the point that I just needed to make up my mind and start seriously seeking God by myself in order to have my own personal encounter with him. Because, no matter how impressive others' testimonies are and no matter the potentially overwhelming amount of testimonies I could watch, at the end of the day all testimonies are just anecdotal information that I'm storing in my brain, but if I don't experience or live anything by myself, all this information will be useless.

So, long story short, about a week ago I began to seek God everyday in prayer, asking Him to concede me a personal encounter with Him that would change my life forever. My "seeking plan" comprises the following points:
  1. Living in holiness as much as I can (not giving in to sinful urges, avoiding worldly things, purifying my thoughts and actions the best I can, etc.)
  2. Listening to Christian music.
  3. Praying, specially at night when there is more privacy.
  4. In particular, when praying one of the main points I stubbornly stress almost all the time is that I want to have a personal encounter with God.
  5. Continuing watching testimonies, sermons and other materials to keep me engaged and motivated to keep seeking.
So far, the main "highlight" of my seeking process so far is that a couple of times I've been able to experience what I would call as "moments of intense fervor in prayer", I mean, moments in which I became very emotional during prayer, even to the point of crying, feeling deep inside a very deep desire from the bottom of my heart to find God (for instance, a few nights ago I remember praying in my mind something along the lines of "Oh God, how beautiful it would be if I just could find you and live the rest of my life in deep communion with you ..." while experiencing intense fervor and having tears in my eyes at the same time). I'm not always able to achieve such level of fervor while praying, as I said it has only happened a couple of times, only lasting for relatively short time spans each time, but I try to take these experiences as little glimpses of what may eventually lay ahead if I keep seeking God everyday non-stop.

I'm afraid though that days may go by and I could lose motivation and quit seeking God prematurely. To prevent this from happening, I try to motivate myself to keep going by watching testimonies of people who testify having had personal encounters with God. One of the testimonies that motivates me the most is Paul Washer's, in which he says he prayed every night for months without success, until eventually God visited him. Check it out:

So basically that's it. Based on tons of testimonies from all around the world I've come to a point in which I have a very strong suspicion that the spiritual realm does exist, and in particular I've felt moved by very strong conversion testimonies to seek God myself. Right now I'm in the middle of this seeking, with the hope that God will eventually reveal himself to me and my life will change forever.

I would love to receive feedback from others.
I hope to post updates here from time to time.

Thank you very much.

--------------------------

Update: you can find all testimonies I've watched in this link (work in progress). The testimonies are ranked from most impressive to less impressive. The top 10 testimonies are just unbelievably astonishing.
It is incredibly dangerous to seek experiences. Satan is well able to counterfeit experiences. I can vouch for the spirit world to be real. I was assigned a personal demon (aka as spirit guide or guardian angel) when I was born. It made my life, and that of my family, hell.

In spite of (or even because of) this issue, God brought me to Himself shortly before my 21st birthday. It was not an experience that made God real to me. When I accepted the Lord Jesus, His death as payment for my sin, His resurrection to give me new life, i was born again. I sure had a feeling right then. Guilt left me instantly. I knew that I was different. My interests and desire changed dramatically.

Faith comes by hearing, not by experiences. God will give us experiences to encourage us at times. But it's a bit like ice cream, nice at the time but does nothing much to edify and build us up spiritually.

It is far better to seek God for Himself, to come to know Him. He will reveal Himself through His Word. And the Lord Jesus is God's living word.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Update: Oh my goodness, I'm speechless, this testimony is just .... mind blowing:


And check out the evangelistic crusades this man is leading in different countries around the world:




Glorifying the Holy Spirit is unbiblical and dangerous. Far too many Christians have been deceived. Lord Jesus told us what characterises the real Holy Spirit.
"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

If someone is glorifying the Holy Spirit, that person is wrong. If the spirit that you are hearing is glorifying itself, then it is counterfeit. It produces a Christianity without Christ, salvation without the Cross, an utterly false and deceptive phenomenon that is deceiving God's elect. Avoid it like the plague.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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It is incredibly dangerous to seek experiences. Satan is well able to counterfeit experiences.

But what about the baptism of the Holy Spirit? That's a supernatural experience each born again Christian should seek, right? If we seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit, God would not give us a demon, right?

I can vouch for the spirit world to be real. I was assigned a personal demon (aka as spirit guide or guardian angel) when I was born. It made my life, and that of my family, hell.

I would love to know more about this. Have you published your testimony with more details somewhere by any chance?
 
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TruthSeek3r

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Glorifying the Holy Spirit is unbiblical and dangerous. Far too many Christians have been deceived. Lord Jesus told us what characterises the real Holy Spirit.
"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

If someone is glorifying the Holy Spirit, that person is wrong. If the spirit that you are hearing is glorifying itself, then it is counterfeit. It produces a Christianity without Christ, salvation without the Cross, an utterly false and deceptive phenomenon that is deceiving God's elect. Avoid it like the plague.

I'm pretty sure Andres Bisonni always preaches salvation in Jesus and that the Holy Spirit testifies about Jesus. I've seen a lot of his videos and I'm pretty sure about that ... Yep, watch his testimony from minute 4:42
 
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Aussie Pete

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I'm pretty sure Andres Bisonni always preaches salvation in Jesus and that the Holy Spirit testifies about Jesus. I've seen a lot of his videos and I'm pretty sure about that ... Yep, watch his testimony from minute 4:42
Sure. Some of the other videos were problematic. When people start talking about "fire", they need to know that it is invariably to do with God's judgement. I'm all for "fire", but too many Christians think it is enthusiasm, a wonderful feeling or a visible manifestation. No, God is the consuming fire. He purges and cleanses and consumes what is the work of self. Watching something that you thought was of God go up in smoke is no fun at all. It is vital for spiritual growth.
 
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But what about the baptism of the Holy Spirit? That's a supernatural experience each born again Christian should seek, right? If we seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit, God would not give us a demon, right?



I would love to know more about this. Have you published your testimony with more details somewhere by any chance?
No, I've not published my testimony. I like to avoid giving too much glory to Satan.

You have asked a really good question about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This could get wordy, so please bear with me....

One of my great fears as a young Christian was that I might be deceived. I thought more in terms of cults like Mormonism or JW's. So I asked God to protect me. He has.

I tell my my Bible students to go through their Bible and cross out the word "supernatural". It's not hard, it is not there. God does not inhabit the natural realm. "Super - natural". "Super" means on top of but still a part of. E.g superstructure is on top of but still a part of a ship.

Why does this matter? Very many Christians do not know the difference. This means that deception is very easy for the devil. He can produce counterfeit signs and wonders from the supernatural realm that Christians assume are of God. My occult involvement has helped me to know that there is a difference. Oddly, I knew it was wrong before I got saved. I did not get heavily involved as God miraculously protected me from all kinds of evil going on under my nose. I did have an experience with a hypnotist that was vital when I was checking out the so called Toronto Blessing. It is entirely demonic.

I had early experiences with people who were baptised in the Holy Spirit. I did not want to know. There was something not right, so I thought. About 3 years later, I sought and receive the Holy Spirit. No music, no laying on of hands, no emotion - and it was wonderful.

I have seen a real problem with many people who get baptised in the Holy Spirit. What bothered me early on became clear to me. It is very easy to take on a proud spirit at the same time. The Pentecostals and Charismatics I knew (some hundreds!) almost always sneered at the ungifted. I was subject to something similar when I was questioning whether or not it was for me personally.

When the Toronto Blessing came on the scene, I'd already noted how open to deception Pentecostals were. It's as if the pride blinded them. I can explain more but this is getting long as it is. I had videos of the meetings where the TB was launched. It was one of the biggest names in Christendom and someone else I'd never heard of. It was a circus. One of the promoters hypnotised a pastor and proceeded to humiliate him. He forced him to run around like a chicken (like the hypnotist I saw years before) and did a "Darth Vader" on him, stopping him from speaking. This was to show how powerful this TB spirit was. Nothing in the least holy about it.

My fear now is that the TB is back in a different guise. The end result will be the same. Salvation without repentance or the cross, Christianity without Christ, a gospel of feelings instead of preaching - all patently false and yet all have been swallowed without question by countless people.

I would like to say more, but I have run out of time. PM me if you wish.
 
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