IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

Kermos

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I only want the truth, and seeing who Jesus is talking about is one thing I need to see, so I don't make the same sad mistake that those who apply OSAS to themselves.

I have been baptized with the Spirit and the very first gift I received was being able to hear His voice. In fact, I never pray for things for myself until He tells me what to pray. I understand that not all His children receive the same gifts, so if you can't literally hear His voice, I'm not going to say you are not chosen and are going to hell.

I am saying that you can not choose Jesus, CharismaticLady, because this is precisely the words that Lord Jesus used "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Lord Jesus says about all His own in all time with "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).
 
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timothyu

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Is the will of humans controlled by God?
It it were there would be no need to condemn Eve for going against God's will, creating the man's will vs God's will scenario. Jesus wouldn't have said, 'nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”', nor would the prayer say ' thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. They could have simply said, hey you're calling the shots, don't blame us.

Self awareness separated us from God. That is not to say God cannot use our adversarial ways for His own purpose, nor us if we invite Him to. Did Adam and Eve and mankind become adversaries to the will of God by way of God's will, just so He could feel disappointed in us?
 
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Kermos

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It it were there would be no need to condemn Eve for going against God's will, creating the man's will vs God's will scenario. Jesus wouldn't have said, 'nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”', nor would the prayer say ' thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. They could have simply said, hey you're calling the shots, don't blame us.

Self awareness separated us from God. That is not to say God cannot use our adversarial ways for His own purpose, nor us if we invite Him to. Did Adam and Eve and mankind become adversaries to the will of God by way of God's will, just so He could feel disappointed in us?

No place in Scripture mentions that Adam, nor Eve, had a "free will" to choose toward God.

Your imagination about the words of Lord Jesus are deception.

Lord Jesus is our believers example (John 13:15), and after we believers are born by the Spirit into the new creature of Christ-likeness then the things of the world fade away including the first nature's will against God.

May Lord Jesus Christ open your eyes to His glorious Truth!

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!
 
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CharismaticLady

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I am saying that you can not choose Jesus, CharismaticLady, because this is precisely the words that Lord Jesus used "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Lord Jesus says about all His own in all time with "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

"Them"? So what? You do know there were 12 disciples don't you?
 
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BNR32FAN

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One must be very cautious because it is easy for carnal man to try to add to the Word of God, as you have done within the Word of God in this passage, because the Word of God says "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away" (John 15:2), yet Jesus does not say there ARE branches in Him that do not bear fruit - no - instead He says "he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit" (John 15:5).

I really want to address more of your quotes but I’m at work and can’t at this time. In verse 2 Jesus does say there are branches in Him that do not bear fruit. His parable in Luke 13 supports this.


“And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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BNR32FAN

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In the room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13).

Acts 1:13 does not support this. Matthias and Joseph are not mentioned in the list of people present. So I’m not the one adding to scripture my friend.
 
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Francis Drake

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No place in Scripture mentions that Adam, nor Eve, had a "free will" to choose toward God.
This is a staggeringly crass interpretation. Did you notice that in no place does scripture say Adam and Eve had no freewill either, or did that slip by your mental gymnastics?

The whole of scripture demonstrates the exercise of freewill, either by God, man, or Satan. Yet you read the genesis account, but conclude the opposite when there is no mention that Adam has no freewill.

Gen1v15Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
God instructs Adam not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, nevertheless he does eat it. That demonstrates Adam had freewill, and he could have eaten of the Tree of Life instead of death.
Your imagination about the words of Lord Jesus are deception.
The deception lies with you not me.
Lord Jesus is our believers example (John 13:15), and after we believers are born by the Spirit into the new creature of Christ-likeness then the things of the world fade away including the first nature's will against God.
So how come sin still controls so many believer's lives if they have no freewill to disobey?
May Lord Jesus Christ open your eyes to His glorious Truth!
Likewise yourself.
There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)
Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the disciples becoming believers. Jesus is simply choosing Jewish believers to become disciples. That's why he asks whether they would desert him as others had already done.
John6v66From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
Why would Jesus ask this if the disciples had no freewill?
68But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Peter makes it clear that he was choosing to stay. Again, an exercise of freewill.

70Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
Again, a reference to Jesus choosing Godly disciples. Judas is mentioned separately because he was unregenerate, demonstrating that all the others were considered to be believers.
- Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus.
Absolutely nothing you have presented shows man has no freewill when it comes to salvation. In contrast, scripture is filled with challenges for man to make that choice of turning to God.
Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!
None of these verses indicate what you are saying.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You impose your imagination against the Word of God in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), akin to free will (Philemon 1:14).

Man is damned in his first nature. God causes the new birth in the Holy Spirit that gives man the new nature pleasing to God (post in this thread). Man does nothing - not even the work called "choice" (John 3:3-8, John 15:16, John 15:19).

how does your theology line up with Romans 2:4-6? Your quoting scripture and advocating Calvin’s theology but your not addressing any of the points that I’ve made about God’s expectations being impossible for the unelected to meet and therefore His judgement upon them would be unjust.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Again, you impose your imagination against the Word of God in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), akin to free will (Philemon 1:14).

Lord Jesus says "I do not ask on behalf of the world" (John 17:9).

You wrote "The context of that statement is intended as those who are worldly cannot receive the Holy Spirit".

Jesus didn't say what you wrote. Jesus prayed about eternal life and keeping God's Word and the Holy Spirit and santification in Truth...

The point, that you desperately try to elude in your self will, is "the world" in John 17:9 is used differently than "the world" in John 3:16.

Jesus uses "the world" in John 17:9 to indicate all people that do not and will not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus uses "the world" in John 3:16 to indicate all people that do and will be indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the only way a person can believe - as referred to in John 3:16 - is by the work of God (John 6:29).

But you fail to see the error in this theology. If someone can only believe if God has chosen them then what about the following verses? Let’s read it in the full context shall we?


“so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

Whosoever believes will have eternal life.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Again whosoever believes.

For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now this is very crucial here to take into consideration. If like you say no one can believe unless God enables that person then how can those people be judged according to whether or not they believe if they are incapable of believing unless God has chosen them? How are these people who are not chosen by God justly punishable if they are INCAPABLE of believing? If they are incapable of believing then God’s expectation of them is IMPOSSIBLE for them to accomplish and His judgement upon them would be UNJUST.

This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Those who prefer evil and darkness do not come to the light for fear their deeds will be exposed. Not because God has not enabled them but because of THEIR OWN PREFERENCE. For those who prefer darkness God grants them exactly what they want, they are thrown into darkness where there will be weeping and knashing of teeth.

But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:15-21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Those who prefer the light are granted the ability to do good deeds of the Holy Spirit. Their ability is enabled by their choice. Everyone who fears God and does what is right & good is welcomed by God. God does NOT show partiality.
 
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Kermos

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Kermos

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"Them"? So what? You do know there were 12 disciples don't you?
I suspect you assert there were only 12 disciples, CharismaticLady, which is wrong. There were more than 12 disciples, for example, Luke wrote "And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles" (Luke 6:13); therefore, there were more than twelve, for example Matthais and Joseph who were with them from the beginning (Acts 1:21-23).

I am saying that you can not choose Jesus, CharismaticLady, because this is precisely the words that Lord Jesus used "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Lord Jesus says about all His own in all time with "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

You persist in denial of you being one of Jesus' sheep, and a person with the Holy Spirit does not deny being one of Jesus' sheep.
 
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Kermos

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I really want to address more of your quotes but I’m at work and can’t at this time. In verse 2 Jesus does say there are branches in Him that do not bear fruit. His parable in Luke 13 supports this.


“And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬
The parable recorded in Luke 13:6-9 does not indicate that the fig tree IS cut down. This is just like the words of Jesus in John 15:2-2 where Jesus does not say there ARE branches in Him that do not bear fruit - no - instead He says "he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit" (John 15:5).

One must be very cautious because it is easy for carnal man to try to add to the Word of God (Revelation 22:18-19).
 
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BNR32FAN

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Specifically, Lord Jesus said "Get up, let us go from here", but John does not record any movement until AFTER John chapter 17 as recorded in John 18:1 "When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, in which He entered with His disciples".

so after Jesus said “Get up let’s go from here” everyone just sat there for the next 3 chapters without moving then all the sudden arrived at their destination in Gethsemane? Why would Jesus tell them to get up and leave if He was going to continue speaking to them in the same place for another 30 minutes or so? That doesn’t make much sense and then they arrive in Gethsemane in chapter 18 without a word said? No I think it’s more plausible that the conversation continued while they were in route to Gethsemane otherwise Jesus wouldn’t have told them to get up and let’s go if He intended on staying for another 30 minutes or so while giving the messages in chapters 14-18.
 
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Kermos

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Acts 1:13 does not support this. Matthias and Joseph are not mentioned in the list of people present. So I’m not the one adding to scripture my friend.
Now, you are subtracting from scripture which carries a deadly penalty (Revelation 22:18-19).

You try to subtract "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us" (Act 1:21) which includes Matthias and Joseph (Acts 1:23).

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

In the room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13).

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the twelve who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17.

One must be very cautious because it is easy for carnal man to try to add to the Scriptue, as you have done with your words "Jesus and His 11 faithful apostles are walking to the olive groves in Gethsemane" trying to limit the audience of John chapters 13-17.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The parable recorded in Luke 13:6-9 does not indicate that the fig tree IS cut down. This is just like the words of Jesus in John 15:2-2 where Jesus does not say there ARE branches in Him that do not bear fruit - no - instead He says "he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit" (John 15:5).

One must be very cautious because it is easy for carnal man to try to add to the Word of God (Revelation 22:18-19).

The Father cuts off every branch IN CHRIST that bears not fruit. Your saying that this is an impossibility which would make this verse completely useless.
 
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Kermos

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This is a staggeringly crass interpretation. Did you notice that in no place does scripture say Adam and Eve had no freewill either, or did that slip by your mental gymnastics?

The whole of scripture demonstrates the exercise of freewill, either by God, man, or Satan. Yet you read the genesis account, but conclude the opposite when there is no mention that Adam has no freewill.

Gen1v15Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
God instructs Adam not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, nevertheless he does eat it. That demonstrates Adam had freewill, and he could have eaten of the Tree of Life instead of death.

The deception lies with you not me.

So how come sin still controls so many believer's lives if they have no freewill to disobey?

Likewise yourself.

Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the disciples becoming believers. Jesus is simply choosing Jewish believers to become disciples. That's why he asks whether they would desert him as others had already done.
John6v66From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
Why would Jesus ask this if the disciples had no freewill?
68But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Peter makes it clear that he was choosing to stay. Again, an exercise of freewill.

70Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
Again, a reference to Jesus choosing Godly disciples. Judas is mentioned separately because he was unregenerate, demonstrating that all the others were considered to be believers.

Absolutely nothing you have presented shows man has no freewill when it comes to salvation. In contrast, scripture is filled with challenges for man to make that choice of turning to God.

None of these verses indicate what you are saying.

You argue from silence for your imagined support for free will.

The moment that you said "The whole of scripture demonstrates the exercise of freewill, either by God, man, or Satan", you added to the Word of God for there is no place in scripture that states that mankind has a free-will. Adding to the Word of God carries a severe and deadly punishment (Revelation 22:18-19).

REGARDING GENESIS

By the way, in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), you miscited the verses of Genesis. It's Genesis chapter 2.

God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)

AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree

AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree

YET a command does not convey ability

BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory

NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"

IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word ki (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. (ki) -- that, for, when)

AND the Hebrew word ki contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when"

THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17

THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17

SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17

REGARDING JOHN 6:66-70

It is written that many, but not all, the disciples departed, so not only to the 12 apostles remain, but also Matthias and Joesph remain as identified by Luke (Acts 1:13, Acts 1:21-23).

The passage does not indicate that only the apostles are chosen by Jesus.

REGARDING FREEWILL

There is no place in the New Testament that indicates man has a free will.

Every time you write that man has a freewill, you oppose that which is written.

REGARDING THE WORD OF GOD

People of the sin nature cannot understand spiritual things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!
 
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Kermos

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God is our believer's merciful Benefactor!

We believers are unworthy beneficiaries.

Our gracious Benefactor produces divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says



"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God


Our gracious Benefactor produces beneficiaries' faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek ?????? pistis) and believe (Greek ??????? pisteuó))



"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is by/of/through God


Our gracious Benefactor produces beneficiaries' fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says



"he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is by/of/through God


Our gracious Benefactor produces beneficiaries' birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says



"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is by/of/through God


There is no quarter for man respecting salvation. God does it ALL! Praise Jesus!
 
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instead He says "he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit" (John 15:5).

Yes why does Jesus say that he who ABIDES ( REMAINS) in Him will bear much fruit if according to Calvin’s doctrine of irresistible Grace a person is INCAPABLE of failing to abide in Christ? He even tells His 11 faithful apostles to ABIDE (REMAIN) in Him. Why would He tell them to remain in Him if they are incapable of failing to remain in Him? Why does He say to them in verse 7 IF YOU ABIDE IN ME?

“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

It wouldn’t make sense to say if you abide in Me if they are incapable of failing to abide in Him.
 
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