God In The Holocaust

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One has to ask, in point of fact there has been more than one rabbi ask: How is it that so many of Moses' people were caught up in the Holocaust? Where was God during all that? Why didn't He step in and do something to protect His chosen people?

To find an answer to that question one need look no further than Ex 34:6-7, Lev 26:3-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:1-69. In other words: the Jews, as a people, brought it on themselves in accordance with the covenant that their ancestors agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

A covenant is essentially a contract. Well; if God were to fail to fulfill His end of the agreement; then He would be in breach of contract; which is not only unethical, but also uncivil. Long story short: the covenant requires Him to lower the boom on His people for failure to honor their end of the agreement; and you can see the extent of the damage for yourself in the scripture references in the above paragraph.

There are numerous blessings that God is contractually obligated to fulfill too; so the covenant isn't all one-sided; viz: compliance with the covenant accrues blessings; while breaching the covenant accrues curses. Anybody who has read the Old Testament can attest that God came down on His own people quite often for breaching the covenant; and just as often quite cruelly. The curses that Lev 26:3-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:1-69 list are very disturbing; and when examining them, one cannot help but realize they're reading a synopsis of the Jews' history.

You know; the status of God's chosen people has its advantages; but also its disadvantages; viz: the status of God's chosen people is not something to be proud of; but rather, something to be afraid of because the covenant's God is not the kind of judge influenced by favoritism. No; if anything, Moses' people run the risk of being judged even more severely than Gentiles because of their privileged position and the insider's knowledge they were given of His likes and dislikes.

Amos 3:1-2 . . Hear this word that Yhvh has spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying: You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. (cf. Luke 12:42-48)
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Carl Emerson

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I was touring with the Zionist Congress and declared myself a believer in Jesus.

One participant turned to me in anger and demanded "where was God during the holocaust" to which I replied He was right in the middle of it otherwise none would have survived.
 
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com7fy8

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In the early scriptures, the LORD does guarantee great calamity to the Jews if they rebel against Him.

But, by the way, in the Bible we have reports of how obedient Jews got blessed, right in the midst of Jews who rebelled and suffered horrible things.

But Jesus has suffered and died on the cross for all of us. And this has effected how much God judges and is merciful to . . . all of us . . . as well as Jews.

And we pray. God is committed to our prayer amounting to something > 1 Timothy 2:1-4.

What matters is not where is God, but where are you? If ones disobey how our Father takes care of us through Jesus, there is no telling what will become of a person to rejects how our Father would take care of him or her.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Honestly, I don't think this was some kind of judgement from God. Bad things happen, bad people exist. Sometimes the most Godly people can get caught up in horrible atrocities.

I do think that God wants as many people as possible to come to a saving faith in Christ, so we should pray for all those who are lost and astray .

But I dont think this was some divine judgment. It just was.
 
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JIMINZ

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One has to ask, in point of fact there has been more than one rabbi ask: How is it that so many of Moses' people were caught up in the Holocaust? Where was God during all that? Why didn't He step in and do something to protect His chosen people?

To find an answer to that question one need look no further than Ex 34:6-7, Lev 26:3-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:1-69. In other words: the Jews, as a people, brought it on themselves in accordance with the covenant that their ancestors agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

A covenant is essentially a contract. Well; if God were to fail to fulfill His end of the agreement; then He would be in breach of contract; which is not only unethical, but also uncivil. Long story short: the covenant requires Him to lower the boom on His people for failure to honor their end of the agreement; and you can see the extent of the damage for yourself in the scripture references in the above paragraph.

There are numerous blessings that God is contractually obligated to fulfill too; so the covenant isn't all one-sided; viz: compliance with the covenant accrues blessings; while breaching the covenant accrues curses. Anybody who has read the Old Testament can attest that God came down on His own people quite often for breaching the covenant; and just as often quite cruelly. The curses that Lev 26:3-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:1-69 list are very disturbing; and when examining them, one cannot help but realize they're reading a synopsis of the Jews' history.

You know; the status of God's chosen people has its advantages; but also its disadvantages; viz: the status of God's chosen people is not something to be proud of; but rather, something to be afraid of because the covenant's God is not the kind of judge influenced by favoritism. No; if anything, Moses' people run the risk of being judged even more severely than Gentiles because of their privileged position and the insider's knowledge they were given of His likes and dislikes.

Amos 3:1-2 . . Hear this word that Yhvh has spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying: You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
_



Mat 27:24-26
24) When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25) Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
26) Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

Looks like whatever has happened since the Crucifixion is, still on their heads until the time of the Gentiles becomes full.
 
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WebersHome

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FAQ: Is the world supposed to believe it was the Jews' own fault that they were rounded up like cattle, stripped of their dignity, their property, their wealth, and their possessions, enslaved, starved, deprived of basic human necessities, tortured, subjected to Frankenstein medical experiments, worked to death, and gassed, shot, and incinerated by the millions?

A: If the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God is binding; then yes; the Jews, as a people, are definitely at fault for what happened to them. There's really no mystery to this: it's all laid out in black and white at Lev 26:14-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:15-69.

FAQ: God caused an event whose collateral damage led to the deaths of all those other people too besides the Jews?

A: We're not saying God engineered the Holocaust. All we're saying is: He stood by and did nothing to prevent a number of His own people being taken in it. In other words: the essential thing that Moses' people brought upon themselves was the loss of God's providence. I think God took advantage of Hitler's agenda as an opportunity; viz: a convenient means of throwing His people to the wolves like He did in the Old Testament with Nebuchadnezzar.

The covenant Moses' people agreed upon with God obligates Him to protect them from misfortune when they're compliant with it; but the same time the covenant also obligates God to lower the boom on them when they're not compliant with it. If there is only one good thing to come out of the Holocaust is that it proves to the world that God is reliable, viz: He can be trusted to honor His commitments.
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WebersHome

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FAQ: Supposing we're right; that there is no one to blame for the loss of Jewish life in the Holocaust but the Jews themselves? If so; then how many of them would've had to breach the covenant to put them all in so much danger?

A: It's surprising how few Jews it takes to ruin it for all the rest. For example the incident at Ai in the 7th chapter of Joshua. The insubordination of one insignificant Jewish man-- just one --caused God to stop assisting Joshua's army in battle. As a result, 36 men were needlessly killed in action; and ultimately capital punishment was inflicted upon not only the insubordinate man himself, but also his sons and his daughters. God's accusation? "Israel has sinned" (Josh 7:11)

See that? God didn't accuse the perpetrator; no; He accused Israel. In other words: in that particular incident; the sin of just one Jew under Joshua's command became the sin of all the Jews under his command; viz: the whole kit and caboodle-- lock, stock, and barrel; and Israel could proceed no further with its conquest of Canaan until the guilty man was executed.

And then there's this incident:

2Sam 21:1 . . Now there was a famine in the days of David for three years, year after year; and David sought the presence of the Lord. And the Lord said: It is for Saul and his bloody house, because he put the Gibeonites to death.

Joshua agreed to a non-aggression pact with the Gibeonites during the conquest of Canaan (Josh 9:3-16). Saul, when king, dishonored the pact. He apparently got away with it; but not his countrymen, no; God slammed them for what Saul did; and that posthumously.

In another Old Testament incident; God lowered the boom on 70,000 Jews. What did they do to deserve it? Absolutely nothing. The insubordination of just one Jewish man caused their deaths. King David breached the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God by taking an unwarranted census. As a result; those 70,000 Jews went to their deaths through no fault of their own; it was all on David.

I can't imagine what just one Jew would have to do in order to bring about the deaths of six million of his fellows; but if a whole bunch of them throughout the world were breaching the covenant all at the same time, I guess that could become a sort of force-multiplier.

That's pretty scary when you think about it because more than fifty percent of the Jews living in the State of Israel right now today are hiloni (secular). In my estimation, that's easily enough insubordinate Jews all in one place for God to justify bringing down the whole country; and then if you combine those with the number of insubordinate Jews around the rest of the world, including the USA; now you can appreciate just how insecure Israel's future really is.

Another possibility is that the generation caught by the Holocaust, was caught not only due to their own breaches of the covenant, but also due to breaches committed by generations preceding them.

Ex 34:6-7 . . Then Yhvh passed by in front of Moses and proclaimed: Yhvh, Yhvh God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in loving-kindness and truth; who keeps loving-kindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished: visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.

That statement is included in the covenant, so God is morally obligated to honor it lest He be found in breach of contract. But it just goes to show that sins have a way of snow-balling from one generation to the next till the snowball is so big that it triggers an act of God; which is really scary because it tells me that it's not impossible that the Jews of today are endangering the Jews of tomorrow by their current breaches of the covenant-- breaches that according to Ex 34:6-7, God will by no means sweep under the rug.

Wouldn't it be awful if the next Holocaust took place right inside the Jews' own homeland? I sincerely believe that Saddam Hussein's SCUDS were a wake-up call. Next time; incoming missiles just may contain nuclear warheads instead of high explosives; and Jacob's people will be poisoned to death with radiation instead of pesticide.

The upside to the Holocaust is its value as historical evidence for the existence of the covenant's God. It is also valuable as historical evidence that the covenant was still in force for Moses' people as recent as the middle of the last century. True; the covenant is obsolete where Christians are concerned; but that old dog can still bark.

I believe it's okay to pity the Jews as per Lam 1:12; but I do not believe it is appropriate to let them get away with playing the victim all the time. That's just a red herring diverting attention away from their own chronic failure to honor the covenant in a manner acceptable to their God.
_
 
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Hawkins

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I think that you need to view it in a more result-oriented way. That's how God trained up His chosen people. The Jews remain the only ethnic group keeping their own culture and religion for 2000 years in the absence of a homeland. Most of them (before the year 1947) remained loyal to God even as the scattered sheep lost without a shepherd.

God is harsh to Israel all the times such that salvation can be carried forward through them to save today's humans.

The question boils down to, if God is not as harsh as shown in the Scripture can the Jews be loyal to Him to bring in salvation to all mankind? I simply don't think that you are in any position to answer this question. So leave it to God to deal with His own chosen people!
 
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WebersHome

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FAQ: If true that the Jews, as a people, brought the Holocaust upon themselves in accordance with the language of the covenant that their ancestors agreed upon with God; then why don't they own up to it instead of always going about playing the victim and acting so indignant?

A: Well; sad to say: the Jewish people, on the whole, are famous for their obtuse attitudes; not only in the Bible; but in real life too. It's so common and so chronic that we're forced to conclude that their attitudes are actually quite systemic. Finding a Jew who will admit they are wrong— wrong about anything —is like searching for the Loch Ness monster and the lost city of Atlantis.

The average John Q and Jane Doe Jew is so defensive, so reactive, so stiff-necked, so adamant, so self-righteous, so arrogant, and so infected with a chosen-people superiority complex; that they simply cannot tolerate criticism; not even criticism coming straight from the mouth of the very God with whom they boast an elite association; for example:

Zech 7:11-12 . . But they refused to listen; and they turned a rebellious shoulder; and they made their ears heavy, not to hear. And they made their heart [as hard] as a shamir, [in order] not to listen to the Torah and to the words that the Lord of Hosts sent, through His spirit by the earlier prophets. And there was great anger from the Lord of Hosts.

Dan 9:5-6 . .We have sinned and have dealt iniquitously; we have dealt wickedly and have rebelled, turning away from Your commandments and from Your ordinances.

Dan 9:10-11 . .And we have not hearkened to the voice of the Lord our God, to follow His teachings, which He placed before us by the hand of His servants, the prophets. And all Israel have transgressed Your teaching, turning away, not heeding Your voice, and the curse and the oath, which are written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have befallen us, for we have sinned against Him.

Jews have been playing the victim card for decades, and getting away with it too; so it really riles them whenever somebody dares to suggest that the misfortunes that have overtaken them down through the years, as well as the problems that plague them now, are due to exactly what Daniel and Zechariah said. For example:

The covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God requires Him to preserve peace in the land of Israel when His people are compliant. Well; the land has been in a state of war since the day of its inception in 1948 and nobody is safe over there; and were Israel not allied with the USA and Britain, I fear the Arab world would crush it practically overnight.

The covenant also obligates God to restore Israel's borders when they are compliant. Well; the State of Israel doesn't even have control over the Temple Mount let alone its covenanted borders.

The covenant also obligates God to provide the State of Israel with abundant rain when the people are compliant. Well; if not for ground water, Israel wouldn't have much of an agriculture. Alas, the historical Jordan River has been reduced to a toxic trickle of its former self because so much water is pumped out of it for irrigation.
_
 
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Bob Crowley

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The Jews weren't the only people murdered in the Holocaust. If you read the following item and add up the figures, something like 17 million people were murdered by the forces of Nazism. That's not including all the lives lost in war trying to stop them.

Holocaust victims - Wikipedia

There were as many Soviet citizens as Jews murdered, about half that again of Soviet POW's, 2 or more million Poles, roughly half a million Serbs, 270000 disabled people, hundreds of thousands of gypsies, Freemasons, Slovenes, homosexuals, etc. etc.

If we're going to ask this question, we have to extend it. What did the average Soviet citizen do to deserve either Stalin or Hitler? What did the average Cambodian do to deserve Pol Pot? What did Genghis Khan's estimated 40 million victims do to deserve him (and that was using medieval technology).

Then there were the Vikings - Mass murderers: The Vikings were feared for a good reason

World View: Ignore recent revisionism. The Norsemen carried out atrocities to equal those of the German SS

Where was God then, especially as many victims were God fearing monks living in monasteries, generally the most peaceful of men.

Today we murder unborn children by the million around the world, and the time will come when God will make sure we pay for it.

Then there's God's benevolent acts of nature, such as the Black Death, which killed an estimated 25 million people, or the alleged "five mass extinctions" of most life on earth, if we take an evolutionary view of life. Did the animals do something to deserve it?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ns-in-earths-history-now-were-facing-a-sixth/

Or volcanic eruptions -

The world's 10 most devastating volcanic eruptions - Australian Geographic

Or tidal waves -

The 10 most destructive tsunamis in history

Or floods -

https://www.history.com/news/worlds-most-catastrophic-floods-in-photos

Or famine, sometimes exacerbated by stupid and brutal government policy -

10 Terrible Famines In History - Listverse

So not only are there acts of evil carried out by humans but also "natural evil", what the insurance companies would term "Acts of God".

Natural evil - Wikipedia

Were the Jews specifically being "paid back" for the crucifixion of Christ by their ancestors nearly 2000 years ago. If so, what about all these other victims? What did they do?

The power of moral evil can be very strong at times, and as long as we've got two feet on earth, it will be there, and we will the ones who carry out most of it. But then there's the issue of natural evil, which humans don't control.

Something kills all of us in the end, either an act of moral evil or natural evil, especially disease and infirmity, at least in the West.
 
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fhansen

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This is the most absurdly ignorant thread Ive read yet. The millions of people including children who suffered atrocities at the hands of cowardly fools driven by evil motives most certainly did NOT DESERVE A SINGLE BIT OF THEIR TORTURE. And we’re not much better than their tormentors if we would ever condone it.
 
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BobRyan

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One has to ask, in point of fact there has been more than one rabbi ask: How is it that so many of Moses' people were caught up in the Holocaust? Where was God during all that? Why didn't He step in and do something to protect His chosen people?

To find an answer to that question one need look no further than Ex 34:6-7, Lev 26:3-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:1-69. In other words: the Jews, as a people, brought it on themselves in accordance with the covenant that their ancestors agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

A covenant is essentially a contract. Well; if God were to fail to fulfill His end of the agreement; then He would be in breach of contract; which is not only unethical, but also uncivil. Long story short: the covenant requires Him to lower the boom on His people for failure to honor their end of the agreement;
_

God destroyed almost all mankind living in Noah's day with the flood and will again at the end of the world resurrect all mankind and destroy them again only this time with the second death.

But is it true that every evil deed that satan does to his victims is "of God"??

Certainly "God allows it" or it would not happen.

Contractually God is "obligated" to release that nation from "special" care (The care that Satan complained about to God in the case of Job) and protection if they choose Satan (Barabbas or Nero or ... "no king but Caesar") as their king (A point illustrated in Job 1 and 2) -- so when given the choice between their Messiah and such kings the Jews force God's hand.

God can "foresee" the result of removing "special" protection from them, leaving them at the same level of all other man-made-governments and nations -- responsible for what they do know, not as responsible for what they do not know.

Which brings us to this post about what was also happening to "other nations" in that same event

The Jews weren't the only people murdered in the Holocaust. If you read the following item and add up the figures, something like 17 million people were murdered by the forces of Nazism. That's not including all the lives lost in war trying to stop them.

Holocaust victims - Wikipedia

There were as many Soviet citizens as Jews murdered, about half that again of Soviet POW's, 2 or more million Poles, roughly half a million Serbs, 270000 disabled people, hundreds of thousands of gypsies, Freemasons, Slovenes, homosexuals, etc. etc.

If we're going to ask this question, we have to extend it. What did the average Soviet citizen do to deserve either Stalin or Hitler?

========================================

Of course ... before that... in OT times God used other nations as a form of "correction" applying the rod sparingly

He can also use those slipping of the bands - to punish/correct them or else can let go entirely
 
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lordjeff

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The proverbial stumbling question for all humanity. Have studied the issue as am Holocaust scholar. This is the closest I can get to an answer. The word "chosen" translates to "burden." Just because one is chosen as special does not imply life is w/o struggle. The burden as far as the ancient Hebrews was to live up to the word of God. Well if we're all fallible, we ain't gonna reach that pillar. It's too high. That's why we're human. If this is a bait & switch God, He sounds bipolar. Anyway, the Holocaust comes along--no, no this is not revenge on the Jewish people. Obviously God did not send some kind of force to stop Hitler. The test of the Jewish people is that they carry on even after such a calamity & in the most interesting of ways. If you observe Jewish people, they tend to be very liberal-always showing compassion or interest in some other wronged part of society. They get into their social justice causes, trying to bring about a better avenue for the down-trodden. Well, that my friends is the "burden". See burden here really means this is their mission, their task, i.e. this is the Jewish people carrying out the Gospel of the Lord by continuing to stick up for the little guy. That being said, of course, millions of people lost their lives. All Israel, per St. Paul, will be saved. The whole thing is a morality play.
 
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