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grasping the after wind

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Hello all,

Thank you in advance for sharing your thoughts and ideas on this question.

Can a person know that Christ is the true Son of God and died for the sins of mankind and yet not be saved?

Yes. One must not only know but believe in one's heart and confess with one's lips that Jesus the Christ is Lord. Faith and commitment not just knowledge.
 
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Unsavable

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As in what - feelings? Feelings have nothing to do with it. If you understand that Christ is Lord, you submit yourself to all that implies. And if you don't feel anything, you keep on submitting. You keep asking, seeking, knocking. You keep digging your foundation deeper. The feelings will come when they come.

You chose to target a specific aspect or affect, smart, it narrows the subject. I think the way one feels is tied to ones understanding of themselves and how they relate to the universe but feelings don't necessarily represent fact, at least not accurately.

So lets say that its not about feelings but about behavior. That is a little more objective. Lets say you pray in earnest, believing in salvation and the power of the Holy Spirit, residing within you, to change you and make you more Christ-like...but nothing happens, nothing changes.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Hello all,

Thank you in advance for sharing your thoughts and ideas on this question.

Can a person know that Christ is the true Son of God and died for the sins of mankind and yet not be saved?

Yes.

"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder." James 2:19

This to say, a saving faith requires more than just mental assent to a list of facts.

When the Bible says that you must believe in your heart and confess with your mouth, the belief spoken of is a heart change; a surrender to Jesus as Lord of your life, and acceptance of His Work on the Cross as reality for you.

When you under sin your a slave to your desires and passions, and a slave to your idea of right and wrong, often based in a societal morality rather than a God centered morality.

The moment you have saving faith, that heart which was once sin becomes renewed in Christ, and instead of a selfward focus the focus becomes more Godward. Instead of a societal morality you develop a sense of a Godly morality - you are, in essence, surrendering self, to Him.

However, Jesus did all the hard work, His yoke is easy and burden light.. but you are surrendering self, in what is often termed a saving faith.
 
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Unsavable

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One must receive the Holy Spirit in order to be in the Body of Christ. This takes more than knowing, it takes trust.
Blessings

Hi Maria,

Thank you for responding. So knowing + trusting = the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Is that it? It sounds pretty simple but what if you believe and trust but nothing happens?

Say person X believes and prays and prays and prays hoping for a change in themselves that never comes? Is hope an inadequate substitute for trust? What if person X feels hopeless and prays for salvation? Is it a failure of trust to wait for a response to prayer? And therefore derails the process?

And is it possible that the person praying is unsavable, simply not destined to be saved?
 
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Hazelelponi

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You chose to target a specific aspect or affect, smart, it narrows the subject. I think the way one feels is tied to ones understanding of themselves and how they relate to the universe but feelings don't necessarily represent fact, at least not accurately.

So lets say that its not about feelings but about behavior. That is a little more objective. Lets say you pray in earnest, believing in salvation and the power of the Holy Spirit, residing within you, to change you and make you more Christ-like...but nothing happens, nothing changes.

I would then ask why does the person desire to be more Christ-like?

Is it born of love for what He's done? Or is it because they hope to fit in better?

It is because they see they are in actual sin? Is it because of a recognition of what they are before God? Or is it because they hope to get a miracle in their life to get over some slump?

Is there real recognition there of Christ's work? Is there a true understanding of the death on the Cross and the impossibility of God's forgiveness - made possible?
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Hello all,

Thank you in advance for sharing your thoughts and ideas on this question.

Can a person know that Christ is the true Son of God and died for the sins of mankind and yet not be saved?
Yes. Because the demons know that better than we do. It has to be more than just knowing about it. The one thing that the demons cannot do is to receive Christ as their Saviour and Lord. The Scripture says "For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved" (Romans 10:10). This is something that the demons cannot do. This is why they tremble with fear when they consider the gospel of Christ, because they know what they future is going to be.

It is possible to know that Jesus is the Son of God and died for the sins of mankind, and yet reject Him and be opposed to the gospel. But when that knowledge goes the 18 inches from the head to the heart, then the transformation of conversion to Christ takes place and the knowledge turns into a true heart-commitment to Christ as Saviour and Lord, and the Holy Spirit witnesses with the person's spirit that he or she is a child of God.
 
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paul1149

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So lets say that its not about feelings but about behavior. That is a little more objective. Lets say you pray in earnest, believing in salvation and the power of the Holy Spirit, residing within you, to change you and make you more Christ-like...but nothing happens, nothing changes.
In that case, let's say you're talking about sin - which is defined as missing the mark, falling short. You pray to be free of it, but it doesn't happen. Now what? First, if you are sincere about it, there is no condemnation (Romans 6.14, 8.1-ff). We don't get victory over sin immediately all the time. That would be the exception. We usually have to walk it out. But in walking it out, if we confess the sin we are forgiven. Even before manifest victory we can have victory in the spirit.

So you're still bound by some sin, but you're not under condemnation. Your conscience should actually be clean at this point; your communion with God, intact. 1Jn 1.9 says if you confess, God will both forgive and cleanse. It doesn't say how fast that will happen, though, so here's where perseverance and endurance come in (Lk 18.1-ff eg), and faith.

Holy Spirit knows how to clean us up (Php 1.6). Let's say a person overeats. He prays and prays, but can't break the stronghold. But he gets a leading, not about food, but that he needs to stop downloading copyrighted movies. Strange, he thinks. But he does it. And in doing so his character becomes a little stronger. This happens a few times with other things - cursing, hitting the dog, etc - until he is ready to start dealing successfully with overeating.

The problem is that often we get on our own timetables. We expect deliverance on our schedule, the way we expect it to unfold. But God sees the whole picture and does it the best way, not our way. This is where humility comes in. Are we willing to walk in weakness while God does His hidden work in us? His power is perfected that way (2Cor 12).
 
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Unsavable

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Yes.

"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder." James 2:19

This to say, a saving faith requires more than just mental assent to a list of facts.

When the Bible says that you must believe in your heart and confess with your mouth, the belief spoken of is a heart change; a surrender to Jesus as Lord of your life, and acceptance of His Work on the Cross as reality for you.

When you under sin your a slave to your desires and passions, and a slave to your idea of right and wrong, often based in a societal morality rather than a God centered morality.

The moment you have saving faith, that heart which was once sin becomes renewed in Christ, and instead of a selfward focus the focus becomes more Godward. Instead of a societal morality you develop a sense of a Godly morality - you are, in essence, surrendering self, to Him.

However, Jesus did all the hard work, His yoke is easy and burden light.. but you are surrendering self, in what is often termed a saving faith.

Hi Hazelelponi,

Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

Great questions. You are questioning the persons underlying motivations. That would be a likely culprit and probably the right answer in so many cases.

I tried to not make the question about myself in particular but you probably put my post and my screen name together and logically came to the conclusion that I was referring to myself. Admittedly I have my struggles and that did lead to my question.

Paraphrasing your words...

"When you are under sin you're a slave to your desires and passions..." and "The moment you have saving faith, that heart which was once sin becomes renewed in Christ"

So the thing that is missing is the saving faith. Imagine you are in the world. Maybe you don't have societal morality. Maybe you know you are broken and sinful. Maybe you desire to be freed from the bonds of slavery to sin. But no amount of prayer alters "your desires and passions". Therefore you must not have the indwelling Holy Spirit and therefore you must lack "Saving Faith". But why? How can a person who is "under sin" have saving faith?

There is a missing piece to the puzzle.
 
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Unsavable

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In that case, let's say you're talking about sin - which is defined as missing the mark, falling short. You pray to be free of it, but it doesn't happen. Now what? First, if you are sincere about it, there is no condemnation (Romans 6.14, 8.1-ff). We don't get victory over sin immediately all the time. That would be the exception. We usually have to walk it out. But in walking it out, if we confess the sin we are forgiven. Even before manifest victory we can have victory in the spirit.

So you're still bound by some sin, but you're not under condemnation. Your conscience should actually be clean at this point; your communion with God, intact. 1Jn 1.9 says if you confess, God will both forgive and cleanse. It doesn't say how fast that will happen, though, so here's where perseverance and endurance come in (Lk 18.1-ff eg), and faith.

Holy Spirit knows how to clean us up (Php 1.6). Let's say a person overeats. He prays and prays, but can't break the stronghold. But he gets a leading, not about food, but that he needs to stop downloading copyrighted movies. Strange, he thinks. But he does it. And in doing so his character becomes a little stronger. This happens a few times with other things - cursing, hitting the dog, etc - until he is ready to start dealing successfully with overeating.

The problem is that often we get on our own timetables. We expect deliverance on our schedule, the way we expect it to unfold. But God sees the whole picture and does it the best way, not our way. This is where humility comes in. Are we willing to walk in weakness while God does His hidden work in us? His power is perfected that way (2Cor 12).

Hi Paul,

Thank you for responding.

This is really a hopeful message and an amazing and new way to look at things. I love your example of downloading movies and hitting the dog!

So many people will not be saved and many think they are but aren't. Do you think this is destiny? Some people are simply unsavable because that is the way it is supposed to be?
 
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paul1149

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Hi Paul,

Thank you for responding.

This is really a hopeful message and an amazing and new way to look at things. I love your example of downloading movies and hitting the dog!

So many people will not be saved and many think they are but aren't. Do you think this is destiny? Some people are simply unsavable because that is the way it is supposed to be?
Thank you. God is so amazing, how could His message of salvation be any less? Do we really think our weaknesses surprise Him, as if He didn't know what He was getting into when He decided to make man and to eventually send Jesus to save him? He knew all of it and went ahead anyway, knowing the great cost of redemption, because He is love. But you see the need for humility, to admit our weaknesses so we can ask properly. God gives grace to the humble.

No, I'm not a determinist. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, and the Father desires that no one perish. The offer is open to all who will believe. To say someone never had a shot it is, in my mind, an offense against the precious Blood. I dare not do that. If someone doesn't want to accept the Free Gift, that's on them, not God. The Judge of the whole Earth will do what is right.

Grace and sonship is just a decision away - the decision to believe that God is able to save even the worst of sinners, and to say Yes to the Lord. Why would that not be so, since even the best of us, whatever that might mean, are entirely dependent on His mercy and grace for salvation? God does not play favorites.

Simply put, NO ONE is unsavable. And the worse your condition, the greater glory in it for Jesus. There is absolutely NO need for anyone not to avail himself of this wonderful offer. Jesus stands at the door of each heart and knocks.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Hi Hazelelponi,

Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

Great questions. You are questioning the persons underlying motivations. That would be a likely culprit and probably the right answer in so many cases.

I tried to not make the question about myself in particular but you probably put my post and my screen name together and logically came to the conclusion that I was referring to myself. Admittedly I have my struggles and that did lead to my question.

Paraphrasing your words...

"When you are under sin you're a slave to your desires and passions..." and "The moment you have saving faith, that heart which was once sin becomes renewed in Christ"

So the thing that is missing is the saving faith. Imagine you are in the world. Maybe you don't have societal morality. Maybe you know you are broken and sinful. Maybe you desire to be freed from the bonds of slavery to sin. But no amount of prayer alters "your desires and passions". Therefore you must not have the indwelling Holy Spirit and therefore you must lack "Saving Faith". But why? How can a person who is "under sin" have saving faith?

There is a missing piece to the puzzle.

The missing piece may be God - or it could be a simple misunderstanding of what being saved or having a saving repentance looks like.

Here's the issue - saving faith doesn't mean your somehow perfect on day 1. It's simply a change in heart, after that, it's a lifetime of growing sanctification walking lockstep with God's Holy Spirit.

We are still in fleshly bodies so we will sin and err, we will then repent and go forward with life. We will have times of trial, and times of wondrous success.

Usually a good measuring stick is what is the change in a person...

Paul Washer (one of my favorite pastors) explained it like this.

Unsaved - A man is getting ready to head out the door, running late for a meeting at work, frustrated and with a million things on his mind. His wife stops him as he's hurriedly heading for the door and asks him to take out the trash.

Frustrated he yells at her "can't you see I'm late for the meeting?! No I won't take the trash out! You do it!" (Or something like that)

He goes to work and goes to the meeting feeling right about his actions.

3 months later the man comes to a saving faith in Christ.

There comes another day, again rushing out the door late for a meeting, and again his wife stops him and asks him to take out the trash on his way out the door.

Again he yells at her "Can't you see I'm late?! No I can't take the trash out you do it! I have to get to this meeting" and he slams the door on the way out.

All the way to work he feels bad for losing his temper and yelling at his wife, he just can't get it out of his head that he's done wrong.

He goes into work and is heading for the meeting, but he's still bothered about his behavior. He runs into his boss on the way to the meeting and says I'm going to be a few minutes late, there's something I have to do.

So he goes into his office and calls his wife and apologizes for yelling at her and asks for her forgiveness. After hanging up he says a quick prayer asking God to forgive him, then goes to the meeting...

Here what has changed isn't necessarily his actions, but his relation to his sin. Where once he felt right in his actions, they now bring him remorse and repentance.

Make sense?

So if you don't have a true saving faith, it's likely you'll simply not feel bad when you sin. You'll just run around just like before feeling right about yourself.

A good video is this:

 
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d taylor

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Hello all,

Thank you in advance for sharing your thoughts and ideas on this question.

Can a person know that Christ is the true Son of God and died for the sins of mankind and yet not be saved?

To receive Eternal Life a person must trust in The Messiah for The Messiah's free gift of His Eternal Life. That is what gives Eternal Life and salvation. Having knowledge of who Jesus is does not give eternal life.
 
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Tone

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Hello all,

Thank you in advance for sharing your thoughts and ideas on this question.

Can a person know that Christ is the true Son of God and died for the sins of mankind and yet not be saved?


"Saved or unsaved"

Saved!

Resurrection Power is how. Messiah really really accomplished something and it is evident all around us.

*Avoid the noise...it wastes time...
 
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Danthemailman

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Hello all,

Thank you in advance for sharing your thoughts and ideas on this question.

Can a person know that Christ is the true Son of God and died for the sins of mankind and yet not be saved?
It's one thing to believe "mental assent" that Jesus is the Son of God and that His death, burial and resurrection "happened." Even the demons believe this. We must also believe in our heart (and not just in our head) and we do this by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. That's what it means to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
 
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