Is the Sabbath binding.

HARK! · Feb 22, 2020

Oscarr said:
The Bible says that obeying the Law to be justified before God brings a curse

(CLV) Dt 27:26
Cursed be the one who is not carrying out all the words of this law to do them. Then all the people will say: Amen!

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 22, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Dt 27:26
Cursed be the one who is not carrying out all the words of this law to do them. Then all the people will say: Amen!

The problem is that no one has ever been able to carry out all the words of the Law. Even while Moses was coming down from the mountain with the tablets of the commandments, the people were violating God's commands to them. And the whole history of Israel shows violations of the Law time after time, which culminated in Israel and Judah losing possession of their promised land.

Jesus was the only Person who was ever able to keep the Law of God without a single fault, while no one before or since has ever been able to do so.

So, it is useless to require that we keep the commandments of God when no one is able to anyway.

sparow · Feb 22, 2020

Cis.jd said:
I never understood the whole "we must keep the sabbath" argument that some protestant denominations argue about.

As if the Sabbath was stated in scripture to be a Saturday, but's simply rest on the 7th day. Just by our Gregorian calendar the 7th day is calculated to be Sunday.

In in a traditional and theological sense, Jesus rose on a Sunday which is already the start of the "new" therefore we worship on Sunday following this theological belief.

I do not enjoy these kinds of debates, and I proceed hopping you will understand even if you do not agree. You are at a disadvantage being a Catholic; in the hierarchy of authority in the Roman Catholic Church the Bible comes in third; first he Pope, second the seat on which the Pope sits, (I suspect that seat is the Roman empire) and third the Bible; historically the Catholic Church does not like it laity reading the Bible.

<<the whole "we must keep the sabbath" argument that some protestant denominations argue about.>> This is the truth demonised. Most Protestants are on the Sunday side of the argument and those Protestants who keep Sunday to the Lord and purposely not to Rome, believing Sunday is the Sabbath, I expect would not be penalised, but I am not their judge; Christ is the Judge. The Father calls and from the called Christ chooses.

The scriptures do not mention saturday, only the 7th day; but only a fool would think the Jews would have lost count since Moses. Romans should use the Gregorian calendar, followers of Christ should use the Jewish calendar for religious purposes.

The seriousness of the sabbath issue can be explained this way: keeping the Sabbath is like waiving the flag of the God of Israel; identifying who is waiving and who is waved to; keeping Sunday is waiving the Pagan flag of Rome; identifying the Pagan person waiving and the Pagan pope who is being waived to. If this is not serious enough there is the Inquisitions; four hundred years to convert Spain from Saturday to Sunday; Sabbath keepers were charged with Judaism, keeping the Sabbath was the evidence against them, as it was in Roman held territory up to the third centaury.

HARK! · Feb 22, 2020

Oscarr said:
The problem is that no one has ever been able to carry out all the words of the Law

(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 22, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

If that is so, then they could have been the perfect substitutes for our sinfulness instead of Jesus! But they weren't. I wonder why not.

HARK! · Feb 22, 2020

Oscarr said:
If that is so

You question the veracity of this verse?

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 22, 2020

HARK! said:
You question the veracity of this verse?

I'm asking the question because Jesus is our perfect substitute who took the penalty for our sin, when no other human being was perfect enough to fulfil that role. That means that Jesus kept the law perfectly, when no one else did, including the two you mentioned.

All I am asking is how you can explain that.

HARK! · Feb 22, 2020

Oscarr said:
I'm asking the question because Jesus is our perfect substitute

(CLV) Hb 5:8
even He also, being a Son, learned obedience from that which He suffered.

(CLV) Hb 5:9
And being perfected, He became the cause of eonian salvation to all who are obeying Him,

I don't have all of the answers; but I do know that Yahshua call us to follow him in his ways.

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 22, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Hb 5:8
even He also, being a Son, learned obedience from that which He suffered.

(CLV) Hb 5:9
And being perfected, He became the cause of eonian salvation to all who are obeying Him,

I don't have all of the answers; but I do know that Yahshua call us to follow him in his ways.

The people asked Jesus, "How do we do the works of God?" He replied, "The work of God is that you believe on Him whom He has sent". That is how we follow the Lord in His ways.

Following the commands and trying to obey the law can puff us up when we think we have achieved some level of obedience. We start to think, "I am getting pretty good, and God must like me much better now that I have attained a higher stage of holiness and obedience." But all this is just self-aggrandisement and takes the glory away from Christ. The Scripture says, "Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, nor the mighty man his might, but he that glories let him glory in this: that he knows and understands Me, says the Lord."

How to walk in the light? Have this attitude:
I'm just a poor sinner, and nothing at all;
But Jesus Christ is my all in all.

sparow · Feb 22, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
If observing Sunday as the sabbath is a salvation issue, then heaven is a very lonely place. If keeping all the Mosaic laws is a salvation then it's even lonelier. Only Lord Jesus kept the Law perfectly. The reality is that we need a day of rest. Lord Jesus that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. It's a practical issue. If more people had a genuine day of rest, especially the hyper busy, there would be far less stress related illness. The day of rest does not have to be the day of worship. Trying to get 4 kids to church on time is not especially restful. The Apostle Paul puts it this way:

"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions. For one person has faith to eat all things, while another, who is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes a special day does so to the Lord; he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God." (Romans 14, 1-6)

Can we put the whole food laws and sabbath thing to rest? It's in black and white. Follow your conscience and get off everyone else's back.

I don't expect the kingdom of God to be lonely; possibly lightly populated.

Matthew 3:3 (NKJV)
3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.' "

Matthew 7:14-15 (NKJV)
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

I say; if Moses can claim ownership of any law, forget that law, but if the Law is given by God, remember that Law.

<<Only Lord Jesus kept the Law perfectly.>> I dispute this, on two points; perfect is a meaningless word until it is defined; “only” is not true; if one said “Lord Jesus kept the law perfectly such that His Father was pleased with Him”; now “perfectly” is defined, Matthew 3:17 (NKJV) 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Abraham pleased God; David pleased God; Many have leased God or else the old covenant would not have been confirmed in Christ. Christ had to please His father, we have to please Christ. We are required to overcome sin as Christ overcame sin and this is not a burden; yet few it is. Because Christ is the fulfilment of the old covenant, the new covenant is a subset of the old covenant, so the Law remains the same; some old covenant prophesies are still to be fulfilled, which are also new covenant prophesies.

Danthemailman · Feb 22, 2020

Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the new covenant. (Colossians 2:16-17)

When Sabbatarians set out to worship on the Sabbath day, are they truly "keeping the Sabbath?" Keeping the Sabbath day under the old covenant involved compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If keeping the Sabbath day was still required, then so would the burnt offerings that went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Ezekiel 46:12). No kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19). This was commanded by God to Israel (Exodus 35:1).

If keeping the Sabbath day is still in affect today, then why don't Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD has commanded in regards to keeping the Sabbath? How can Sabbatarians keep a certain law when they only part of it? If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to (Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36), anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.

So who is going to enforce that law? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church? What about the Government? Since we don't live under a theocratic state as Israel did under the old covenant, no Sabbatarian today can consistently live under these Mosaic regulations.

Aussie Pete · Feb 22, 2020

sparow said:
I don't expect the kingdom of God to be lonely; possibly lightly populated.

Matthew 3:3 (NKJV)
3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.' "

Matthew 7:14-15 (NKJV)
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

I say; if Moses can claim ownership of any law, forget that law, but if the Law is given by God, remember that Law.

<<Only Lord Jesus kept the Law perfectly.>> I dispute this, on two points; perfect is a meaningless word until it is defined; “only” is not true; if one said “Lord Jesus kept the law perfectly such that His Father was pleased with Him”; now “perfectly” is defined, Matthew 3:17 (NKJV) 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Abraham pleased God; David pleased God; Many have leased God or else the old covenant would not have been confirmed in Christ. Christ had to please His father, we have to please Christ. We are required to overcome sin as Christ overcame sin and this is not a burden; yet few it is. Because Christ is the fulfilment of the old covenant, the new covenant is a subset of the old covenant, so the Law remains the same; some old covenant prophesies are still to be fulfilled, which are also new covenant prophesies.

Abraham pleased God because he believed God. He was also a coward and a deceiver. David said that he hid God's law in his heart so that he might not sin against God. He was a murdering adulterer. Moses, Elijah, Abraham, David - God's elite. And they all sinned one way or another.

You have a real problem if you are trying to please Christ and overcome sin. I wish you well. Me, I gave up that pointless endeavour years ago. I wasted far too much of my life trying. When the truth finally dawned on me, I realised that I don't have to do anything at all. It's all been done for me. Lord Jesus died my death for me. Lord Jesus took me to the grave and left me there. He raised me up to new life with Himself. I did nothing to achieve this. I am already righteous, I already please God and sin no longer has dominion over me. I do not remember the 633 laws that God gave to Moses and I couldn't care less. I am a partaker of the divine nature, I am complete in Christ and I am a new creation in Him. The Law is just a shadow of the reality. If that's all you have, you have nothing.

Aussie Pete · Feb 22, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

"But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption..." 1 Corinthians 1:30. That's good enough for me.

sparow · Feb 22, 2020

Oscarr said:
The problem is that no one has ever been able to carry out all the words of the Law. Even while Moses was coming down from the mountain with the tablets of the commandments, the people were violating God's commands to them. And the whole history of Israel shows violations of the Law time after time, which culminated in Israel and Judah losing possession of their promised land.

Jesus was the only Person who was ever able to keep the Law of God without a single fault, while no one before or since has ever been able to do so.

So, it is useless to require that we keep the commandments of God when no one is able to anyway.

You are gravely mistaken! And in the process do great harm to the kingdom of God. You have not identified the problem at all. The Israel that came out of Egypt seemed to be hard headed and obtuse and difficult but to say none pleased the Lord up to the coming of Christ, would be wrong; we know David pleased the Lord, Daniel and his friends pleased the Lord, Mary and John the Baptist and their families pleased the lord. My conclusion is there were enough who entered into and kept the covenant to God's retirements, else there would not have been a covenant remaining for Christ to confirm or fulfil.

God's main complaint against Israel was not that they did not keep the Law but that they would not enter into the covenant wherein repentance is as much a part of the Law as is “do not commit adultery”. Repentance is where David excelled.

There is a saying, “When ever God rants and threatens, “unless you repent”” is always implied. This was said, and concluded by Ivan Panin who was literate in the Biblical languages, as well as having a Harvard degree in English literature. Panin, a Pentecostal preacher, who died around the end of WW2, also said, “Dispensationalism requires a New Gospel, a new Kingdom and a new Bible”. Which shows one can be a Pentecostal without turning things upside down and bringing the things of God to nought.

Danthemailman · Feb 22, 2020

Oscarr said:
So, it is useless to require that we keep the commandments of God when no one is able to anyway.

The greek word for "keep" is "tereo" which means to guard, observe, watch over.

Strong's Concordance
téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.

HELPS Word-studies
5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard

In that regard, I believe we can keep the commandments. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments of God. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him.

*Yet "keep" does not mean sinless, perfect obedience to all the commandments 100% of the time. We have ALL failed at that! (Romans 3:23)

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 22, 2020

sparow said:
You are gravely mistaken! And in the process do great harm to the kingdom of God. You have not identified the problem at all. The Israel that came out of Egypt seemed to be hard headed and obtuse and difficult but to say none pleased the Lord up to the coming of Christ, would be wrong; we know David pleased the Lord, Daniel and his friends pleased the Lord, Mary and John the Baptist and their families pleased the lord. My conclusion is there were enough who entered into and kept the covenant to God's retirements, else there would not have been a covenant remaining for Christ to confirm or fulfil.

God's main complaint against Israel was not that they did not keep the Law but that they would not enter into the covenant wherein repentance is as much a part of the Law as is “do not commit adultery”. Repentance is where David excelled.

There is a saying, “When ever God rants and threatens, “unless you repent”” is always implied. This was said, and concluded by Ivan Panin who was literate in the Biblical languages, as well as having a Harvard degree in English literature. Panin, a Pentecostal preacher, who died around the end of WW2, also said, “Dispensationalism requires a New Gospel, a new Kingdom and a new Bible”. Which shows one can be a Pentecostal without turning things upside down and bringing the things of God to nought.

If anyone was or is able to keep the Law to the degree that they are pleasing or being acceptable to God, then Jesus would not have had to come to die on the cross to take the penalty for our sin. It would make a lie of the Scripture, "No one is justified by the Law".

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 22, 2020

Danthemailman said:
The greek word for "keep" is "tereo" which means to guard, observe, watch over.

Strong's Concordance
téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.

HELPS Word-studies
5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard

In that regard, I believe we can keep the commandments. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments of God. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him.

*Yet "keep" does not mean sinless, perfect obedience to all the commandments 100% of the time. We have ALL failed at that! (Romans 3:23)

Absolutely! That means that if we are basing our salvation and acceptability to God by keeping the commandments, and are failing at it, then grace is no more grace, and Christ is no longer effective. All that remains is that one has to bear their own penalty for sin, which is condemnation and hell.

HARK! · Feb 22, 2020

Oscarr said:
Following the commands and trying to obey the law can puff us up when we think we have achieved some level of obedience. We start to think, "I am getting pretty good, and God must like me much better now that I have attained a higher stage of holiness and obedience."

(CLV) 1Co 5:8
so that we may be keeping the festival, not with old leaven, nor yet with the leaven of evil and wickedness, but with unleavened sincerity and truth.

Oscarr said:
But Jesus Christ is my all in all.

YHWH is my all in all. He is Yahshua's all in all.

(CLV) 1Co 15:24
thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.

(CLV) 1Co 15:25
For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.

(CLV) 1Co 15:26
The last enemy is being abolished death.

(CLV) 1Co 15:27
For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.

(CLV) 1Co 15:28
Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.

summerville · Feb 22, 2020

HARK! said:

We no longer use a lunar calendar.. and there have been many calendars to include the Julian calendar and the Gregorian calendar. These days Monday is considered the first day of the week. Is it really an issue?

HARK! · Feb 22, 2020

summerville said:
We no longer use a lunar calendar.

Yahudim do, to keep the Moedim; but that has nothing to do with the seven day sabbath cycle.

summerville said:
These days Monday is considered the first day of the week. Is it really an issue?

Daniel 7:25

New King James Version
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

Is the Sabbath binding.

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