Who Changed Shabbat?

BobRyan said:

Spoken at the time of David. And did nothing at all to delete the 4th commandment then or now.

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The 4th commandment where God said no one will enter...Hebrews 4...which Sabbath day is that?

BobRyan said:

Nope - it means to observe the Sabbath on each seventh day. Two distinct cycles given in Isaiah 66:23 one of them is the 7 day cycle, the other is the monthly cycle.

None of them are "never" or "daily"

So for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" is a fact about Sabbath keeping for all eternity after the cross. Not Sabbath abolishing... Sabbath keeping.

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You forgot that there will be no more nights or sun in new earth and new heavens Revelation 22:5...how do measure your weekly Sabbath?
people live there forever....no time limits ie...a day is like a thousand years etc...

pasifika said:

You forgot that there will be no more nights or sun in new earth and new heavens Revelation 22:5...

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You forgot that I did not author Isaiah 66:23 - God did. So it is He that tells us that in the New Earth there are both days and months... and for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

You forgot that Rev 22:5 does not actually say "there will be no more nights or sun in new earth" - you did.

Rev 21 sets the context for Rev 22:5

Rev 21 says specifically "about the city" - not the entire Earth
Rev 21: 22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;

Rev 22:1-3 is specifically about the City - where the throne of God is
And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.


And you forgot that 2 Peter 3 does not say "in the New Earth a day is like a thousand years" -- it says that currently "WITH God a day is like a thousand years AND a thousand years is like a day"... specifically speaking of the long delay over the 2nd coming, and that God is patient in waiting for the most people to be saved.

pasifika said:

You forgot that there will be no more nights or sun in new earth and new heavens Revelation 22:5...how do measure your weekly Sabbath?
people live there forever....no time limits ie...a day is like a thousand years etc...

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Brother, happy Sabbath! We need a solution to your question near the earth’s poles with non-standard days. God dealt with these problems when He established the Sabbath in the time zone of Eden, we simply have not fully understood His complete wisdom with the Sabbath. The first day below is from the first light to light again in the "morning", defining the cycle of the day until the first Sabbath from "morning" to "morning". Israel remembers the Sabbath from “evening” to “evening” ten hours before its seventh local day from “morning” to “morning” that gives the distance to Eden and falls on the International Date Line (IDL). The Sabbath in Israel comprises part of the sixth day and part of the seventh day, as defined below is the first day in Genesis from the first light to light again in the "morning" and the later days from “morning” to “morning”. This is present truth to prepare us for the soon return of Jesus.

United our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

BobRyan said:

You forgot that I did not author Isaiah 66:23 - God did. So it is He that tells us that in the New Earth there are both days and months... and for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

You forgot that Rev 22:5 does not actually say "there will be no more nights or sun in new earth" - you did.

Rev 21 sets the context for Rev 22:5

Rev 21 says specifically "about the city" - not the entire Earth
Rev 21: 22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;

Rev 22:1-3 is specifically about the City - where the throne of God is
And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.


And you forgot that 2 Peter 3 does not say "in the New Earth a day is like a thousand years" -- it says that currently "WITH God a day is like a thousand years AND a thousand years is like a day"... specifically speaking of the long delay over the 2nd coming, and that God is patient in waiting for the most people to be saved.

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Even Isaiah 65:17..." i will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered nor they will come to mind...

If there is night and sun in new heavens and earth then people still remember them right? Not a new things..

Do you think there is night or day in heaven right now where God's throne is?
I don't think so, God Himself is the light...
So, we see in revelation 21,22 that the throne of God is with His people and God Himself will give them light...

As Jesus said, in John 8...that He is the light of the world..

Malachi:4:2...you who revered my name, the sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in its rays....

The new heavens and new earth will be new creation with old things now will not be remembered there, and God Himself is the light. ..which is why in revelation 22:5..there will be no more night because God is there to give light...this means in the city but also in His new creation...

pasifika said:

Even Isaiah 65:17..." i will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered nor they will come to mind...

If there is night and sun in new heavens and earth then people still remember them right?

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Agreed. There will be water there as well - people will remember water.

what is your point?

As I said before -- I did not author Isaiah 66:23 - God did. So it is He that tells us that in the New Earth there are both days and months... and for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

And exegesis means applying context when rendering the text. How is it that Isaiah's message framed in the way he wrote it - would be understood by his readers? Would they be thinking "err... umm... people won't remember water or the sun??"

BobRyan said:

Agreed. There will be water there as well - people will remember water.

what is your point?

As I said before -- I did not author Isaiah 66:23 - God did. So it is He that tells us that in the New Earth there are both days and months... and for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

And exegesis means applying context when rendering the text. How is it that Isaiah's message framed in the way he wrote it - would be understood by his readers? Would they be thinking "err... umm... people won't remember water or the sun??"

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Water of life...have you seen this water before?
Isaiah is using things that is known and seen by people to describe the things in the new creation...but in reality will be different...but he (Isaiah ) is building a picture in the mind of the reader but the actual thing is different...

God is prepared things far beyond our imagination..

1Corinthians 2:8.." what no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived the things God has prepared for those who love him...

pasifika said:

God is prepared things far beyond our imagination..

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Brother, God "blessed" the seventh day and made it "holy", setting the Sabbath in the time zone of Eden for all the people on earth who would "remember" the Sabbath, to keep it "holy". Then sin contaminated God's creation and God taught the right way to "remember" the Sabbath in Israel, which is our example on how to "remember" the Sabbath throughout the world. When Jesus returns, He expects those who love Him to obey the commandments He wrote with His own finger before the incarnation.


United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj said:

Brother, God "blessed" the seventh day and made it "holy", setting the Sabbath in the time zone of Eden for all the people on earth who would "remember" the Sabbath, to keep it "holy". Then sin contaminated God's creation and God taught the right way to "remember" the Sabbath in Israel, which is our example on how to "remember" the Sabbath throughout the world. When Jesus returns, He expects those who love Him to obey the commandments He wrote with His own finger before the incarnation.

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done. (Genesis 1:31-2:3)​

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

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Hello, thank you for your post...as you've said that sin contaminated God's creation....and that's including mankind whom He created to be His likeness and Image...therefore no humans can keep or doing anything good or keeping His Sabbath holy because of this contamination (sin in His people )...
But God knows the only way His people to be cleansed and made holy is to come in the likeness of human flesh, fulfill the requirements of the law so mankind can be redeemed and revived...
So whatever the law requires which including keeping the Sabbath holy only fulfilled by Jesus Christ...

Therefore, for us mankind to be cleansed by His Spirit is to believe in Jesus who has fulfilled the law and prophets..and that is our work...is to believe...when we believe then we enter in to God's Sabbath...then we can be able to keep the Sabbath holy because we have been made holy..

pasifika said:

Water of life...have you seen this water before?

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I drank water many times and I am sure I will continue to do so in heaven -- and in heaven I will also drink the water of life.

Heaven is wonderful - but God will not zap our brains with amnesia so that we have no appreciation at all for what Christ did for us. Rather with full appreciation of our state and rescue we will continue to see the wounds in his hands and side and remark "all this - for me", the Love of God singularly demonstrated for mankind

God "could" have zapped the brain of Lucifer at the start or zapped the brains of Adam and Eve - at once and started over... no cross of Christ, no demonstration of the problem of sin, no demonstration of the Love of God - and saved Himself a lot of pain suffering and grief as well as saving a lot of fallen angels and fallen mankind the lake of fire.

In a free will universe right-decisions are motivated by compelling evidence... this world's sin experiment provides that to safe guard all of eternity.

The other way to do it was "brain-zapping" which if that were the solution - would have been done long before causing God Himself torture on the cross

pasifika said:

Hello, thank you for your post...as you've said that sin contaminated God's creation....and that's including mankind whom He created to be His likeness and Image...therefore no humans can keep or doing anything good or keeping His Sabbath holy because of this contamination (sin in His people )...
But God knows the only way His people to be cleansed and made holy is to come in the likeness of human flesh, fulfill the requirements of the law so mankind can be redeemed and revived...
So whatever the law requires which including keeping the Sabbath holy only fulfilled by Jesus Christ...

Therefore, for us mankind to be cleansed by His Spirit is to believe in Jesus who has fulfilled the law and prophets..and that is our work...is to believe...when we believe then we enter in to God's Sabbath...then we can be able to keep the Sabbath holy because we have been made holy..

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Brother, happy Sabbath! I agree with many of your statements, except on the Sabbath. I show my "faith" in Jesus by obeying what He asked of those who love Him: obeying the commandments of Jesus written by His own finger before the incarnation, not because I think that I can keep the Sabbath perfectly to save myself as Jesus did, but because the proper Sabbath shows my "faith" and love for Jesus doing everything possible to obey the Sabbath commandment as I grow under the grace of God's forgiveness to obey the Sabbath better.


United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

klutedavid said:

Mark states the Sabbath was over before Mary went to the tomb to anoint Jesus. You cannot debate this point (Mark 16:1).

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Mark 16:1 says Mary Magdalene and her companions bought spices “when the sabbath was past.” They were planning to prepare these ointments and spices so that they might anoint the body of Jesus.

Yet Luke 23:56 says they prepared these spices and then rested on the weekly Sabbath day.
Compare these two texts.

Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday afternoon and buried later that evening, before sunset.

The next day, Thursday, was an annual sabbath day
[the first day of unlevened bread]. The day after that
[a friday], was preparation day for the regular weekly Sabbath.

So Mark said these women bought the spices after the Sabbath was past. Luke said they prepared the spices before the Sabbath arrived. There was a high Holy day [and] the weekly Sabbath that week [2 Sabbaths].

Jesus was witnessed to be risen on the first day by the apostles.

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They got to the tomb while it was still dark, and Christ was already gone. There was nobody that saw Christ rise from the grave. He arose- then early on the first day of the week...

This doesn't say He arose on the first day, it says He arose, one event. Then on early on the first day of the week another event occurred.

The only sign Christ gave us, is not about celebrating easter, sunday sunrise service. Nor does the bible even tells us to celebrate the Resurrection day.

pasifika said:

Hello, the Sabbath has never change...but the day has changed...who change it? It's God Himself... Hebrews 4:7..God again set a certain day calling it "Today"....

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A warning-about entering into His rest.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

-how did they came short?

Heb 4:2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by (faith) with them that heard.

-they did not have faith.

Heb 4:3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest;even as he hath said, As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works;

-notice entering into that rest is connected with the seventh day.

Heb 4:5 and in this place again, They shall not enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached

Heb 4:7 he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before), To-day if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts.

Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day.

-David said "today" long after Joshua took them into the promised land so thus proving that there is a rest still to be entered.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

.

Heb 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holy of holies;
Heb 9:4 having a golden altar of incense, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was a golden pot holding the manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

-the pot of manna was put in the most Holy

Deu 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which Jehovah thy God hath led thee these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble thee, to prove thee, to know what was in thy heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or not.
Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know

that man doth not live by bread only, but by everything that proceedeth out of the mouth of Jehovah doth man live.

And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no. Deuteronomy 8:2

-God tested them for 40 years to humble them to see what was in their hearts. that they should live by every word (10 commandments spoken by Gods own mouth) not by bread alone.

-what did the bread teach?

Exo 16:4 Then said Jehovah unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or not.

Exo 16:5 And it shall come to pass on the sixth day, that they shall prepare that which they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.

-and how long did God prove them with the manna?

Exo 16:32 And Moses said, This is the thing which Jehovah hath commanded, Let
an omerful of it be kept throughout your generations, that they may see the bread
wherewith I fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you forth from the land of Egypt.

Exo 16:33 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omerful of manna therein,
and lay it up before Jehovah, to be kept throughout your generations.

As Jehovah commanded Moses, so Aaron laid it up before the Testimony, to be kept.
And the children of Israel did eat the manna forty years, until they came to a land inhabited;
they did eat the manna, until they came unto the borders of the land of Canaan.

-40 years. this is the issue being spoken of in Hebrews:

Heb 3:16 For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses?

Heb 3:17 And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient?
Heb 3:19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:4-10 "For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works [Gen. 2:2-3].

And in this [place again],

If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in
because of unbelief [sound familiar?]: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

There remaineth therefore a rest [see below] to the people of God. For he that is entered
into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his."

rest (G4520) sabbatismos
1. a keeping sabbath
2. the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by
the true worshippers of God and true Christians
from a derivative of G4521

(G4521) sabbaton
1. the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites
were required to abstain from all work
1a. the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
1b. a single sabbath, sabbath day
2. seven days, a week
of Hebrew origin H7676

(H7676) shabba^th
1. Sabbath
1a. sabbath
1b. day of atonement
1c. sabbath year
1d. week
1e. produce (in sabbath year)
intensive from H7673

(7673) sha^bath
1. to cease, desist, rest
1a. (Qal)
1a-1. to cease
1a-2. to rest, desist (from labour)
1b. (Niphal) to cease
1c. (Hiphil)
1c-1. to cause to cease, put an end to
1c-2. to exterminate, destroy
1c-3. to cause to desist from
1c-4. to remove
1c-5. to cause to fail
2. (Qal) to keep or observe the sabbath
a primitive root

Genesis 2:2-3 "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

The LORD created the seventh day (Sabbath), blessed and sanctified it "because that in it he had rested from all his work".

-once God has blessed something, can it be undone?

Numbers 23:19-20 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and [I cannot reverse it]."

-Here Balaam tells Balak that the LORD gave him a commandment to bless Israel.

He told Balak that what the LORD has blessed, he cannot reverse it. Do we think we can reverse the blessing the LORD has placed on something?

1 Chronicles 17:26-27 "And now, LORD, thou art God, and hast promised this goodness unto thy servant: Now therefore let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may be before thee for ever: for thou blessest, O LORD, and it shall be blessed for ever."

klutedavid said:

You must cease work on the day of the new moon!

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Where does it say that every new moon
is a high holy day [no work] in the bible?

klutedavid said:

Rosh Kodesh is a day of rest and is not a Sabbath because it is the first day of the lunar month. Six days later you will have the seventh day which is a Sabbath day.

The first and the seventh days are always rest days every month, no work is to be done on those days.

Lunar calendars and solar, papal calendars, are different calendars. They have a different number of days with respect to each other.

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Gods calendar is A lunisolar calendar.

Genesis 1:14 says the sun and moon are for seasons, days and years.
As the sun marks the day, it also marks the year.

"The Hebrew week is a cycle of seven days, mirroring the seven-day period of the Book of Genesis in which the world is created. Each day of the week runs from sunset to the following sunset and is figured locally.

"The weekly cycle, which runs concurrently with but independently of the monthly and annual cycles."

The 7 day week is [not locked to the monthly cycle]. Both the Gregorian and Julian calendars include an updated lunar calendars.

The Hebrew calendar has been preserved correct by the Jews. Romans 3:1-2: the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God.

These three—Bible, calendar and week—are all part of the oracles committed to the Jews for all mankind.

For without the calendar, it would be impossible to fulfill correctly what is written in the Hebrew Bible about hallowed annual times.

-Astronomy observance

"There has been no change in our calendar in past centuries that has affected in any way the cycle of the week."—James Robertson, Director American Ephemeris, Navy Department, U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington, D.C., March 12, 1932.

"The human race never lost the septenary [seven day] sequence of week days and that the Sabbath of these latter times comes down to us from Adam, though the ages, without a single lapse."—Dr. Totten, professor of astronomy at Yale University.

"Seven has been the ancient and honored number among the nations of the earth. They have measured their time by weeks from the beginning. The origin of this was the Sabbath of God, as Moses has given the reasons for it in his writings."—Dr. Lyman Coleman.

"By calculating the eclipses, it can be proven that no time has been lost and the creation days were seven, divided into 24 hours each."—Dr. Hinkley, The Watchman, July 1926 [Hinkley was a well-known astronomer].

"It can be said with assurance that not a day has been lost since Creation, and all the calendar changes notwithstanding, there has been no break in the weekly cycle."—Dr. Frank Jeffries, Fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society and Research Director of the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England.
-

There is no question about which day the
seventh day of the week is, every 7th day.

The weekly cycle has not changed. The break
between the shift from the Julian to the Gregorian
calendar?There was a well known break of 10 days.

In 1582, that Thursday the 4th was followed by Friday the 15th. The weekly cycle was not interrupted. Now take a look at 1752, Wednesday the 2nd was followed by Thursday the 14th.

Again, the calendar had to be adjusted to correct
it to the seasons but the weekly cycle remained unchanged.

Who Changed Shabbat?

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Lamentations 2:17 (KJV)
The Lord hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries.

Daniel 7:25 (KJV)
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The Gregorian calendar—named after Pope Gregory xiii.
That calendar revolves around fixing the date of Easter
in line with the spring equinox, ensuring that the Catholic’s pagan festivals fall at the right time relative to Earth’s revolution around the sun.

guevaraj said:

Brother, that is false. The first day began with the period of light that God called "day" and ended with the period of darkness that God called "night" from evening to morning, so that the first day of the week in Genesis was from the first light to light again in the morning, setting the days of the week in Genesis from morning to morning.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)​

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

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You keep saying this but the text says
there was evening [night time],
and there was morning [daytime]