Time is not an Eternal Concept

rockytopva · Feb 19, 2020

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

Mass can dis-associate into plasma energy (E/c2)
Plasma energy can re-associate into mass (m)

Making mass, I believe, eternal stuff. Time, however, is not eternal and soon will cease.

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

The mass of the universe existed without form and I can imagine it as a cluster out in space awaiting some kind of Big Bang to dis-associate the mass into plasma energy. Time I don’t believe came about until the earth began orbit around the sun. The time on earth is limited and if things continue on by themselves the sun will likely pull the planets in and explode returning things to the E/c2 from which she was forged. I can imagine the plasma returning to the mass without form.

The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3:10

The universe, then, becomes a space of time in eternity. Something like a vapor that only appears for a moment, and then dissipated away (James 4:14). As the eternity is forever behind and forever ahead there becomes a great sea of forgetfulness in which it is impossible to log the eternities before and the eternity that will be ahead. Therefore the concept of time must soon cease.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.- Isaiah 65:16

And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: - Revelation 10:5-6

The universe then becomes an eternal day.

Sabertooth · Feb 19, 2020

Just being mortal shows that "time is not an eternal concept..."

SkyWriting · Feb 19, 2020

rockytopva said:
If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

Mass can dis-associate into plasma energy (E/c2)
Plasma energy can re-associate into mass (m)

Making mass, I believe, eternal stuff. Time, however, is not eternal and soon will cease.

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

The mass of the universe existed without form and I can imagine it as a cluster out in space awaiting some kind of Big Bang to dis-associate the mass into plasma energy. Time I don’t believe came about until the earth began orbit around the sun. The time on earth is limited and if things continue on by themselves the sun will likely pull the planets in and explode returning things to the E/c2 from which she was forged. I can imagine the plasma returning to the mass without form.

The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3:10

The universe, then, becomes a space of time in eternity. Something like a vapor that only appears for a moment, and then dissipated away (James 4:14). As the eternity is forever behind and forever ahead there becomes a great sea of forgetfulness in which it is impossible to log the eternities before and the eternity that will be ahead. Therefore the concept of time must soon cease.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.- Isaiah 65:16

And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: - Revelation 10:5-6

The universe then becomes an eternal day.

You missed that the "Speed of light" is in there.

"Speed" having a time component.

So it's reasonable that time does not exist until it has mass to work with.
When mass was created, time began.

GaveMeJoy · Feb 19, 2020

You just helped me solve a 2 month long argument with a friend with that revelation verse. I’m a “no time in heaven” believer THaNK U

FreeinChrist · Feb 19, 2020

ADVISOR HAT

This thread was moved from Physical & Life Sciences to the new subforum.

rockytopva · Feb 21, 2020

I believe as E = mc2 so

m (mass) = E/c2 (Energy)

God was always there. He was never created and he will never be destroyed. But the form of the E/c2 will change as he wills it.

For our God is a consuming fire. - Hebrews 12:29

God is E/c2... He can cool E/c2 to form mass, or he can turn it back into the plasma from which it was forged.

And the earth was without form, and void; - Genesis 1:2

We find in Genesis chapter one that the earth was without form and void. Then God said, "Let there be light!" And there was light - Genesis 1:3.

The light was made available through the dis-association of mass. This was what scientist call the big boom. As the mass dissociated into light and energy it also spread out from a point of origin.

I would say the equivalent (I say equivalent as the concept of time was not in existence) of 15 billion years went by and then God moves again...

"And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness." - - Genesis 1:4

For God to have divided the light from the darkness I would assume that the planet earth is formed and put into orbit around the sun.

"And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." - Genesis 1:5

Notice that the first day was not declared until after the planet earth was put in orbit. Therefore the known universe is very old, and the planet earth is in comparison very young. The creation story then unfolds as scripture told it...

Day 1 - Planet Earth is put into orbit, dividing the light from the darkness.
Day 2 - The atmosphere is created
Day 3 - Dry land arises from the sea
Day 4 - The atmosphere clears, allowing the moon and the stars to shine through
Day 5 - The sea creatures are created
Day 6 - Land based creatures, including man, are created
Day 7 - God rests on the seventh day

Very soon the mass is going to return to the light and the energy from whence it was forged...

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3:10

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. - 2 Peter 3:12-13

Sorn · Feb 23, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
You just helped me solve a 2 month long argument with a friend with that revelation verse. I’m a “no time in heaven” believer THaNK U

You are mistaken, you need to go back to your friend and admit you lost the argument. Time will indeed exist in heaven.
If the verse you mean is Revelation 10:5-6 then hover over the link in the OP and you will see it written as delay no more, ie it is saying that no more time will pass before the judgement of the God occurs, ie the waiting is over.

The bible does actually state that time will exist in heaven, its in Revelation where you find it (apart from the fact that common sense tells one time will exist, i mean if in heaven you have so much as a thought then there will be a time before your thought and a time after your thought, not to mention a time before any actions and a time after any actions.
Its not possible to exist without time frankly.)

Anyway, back to revelation, check out Revelation 22:1-2. its pretty clear time exists otherwise why would there continue to be months, which are themselves a measure of time.

GaveMeJoy · Feb 23, 2020

Sorn said:
You are mistaken, you need to go back to your friend and admit you lost the argument. Time will indeed exist in heaven.
If the verse you mean is Revelation 10:5-6 then hover over the link in the OP and you will see it written as delay no more, ie it is saying that no more time will pass before the judgement of the God occurs, ie the waiting is over.

The bible does actually state that time will exist in heaven, its in Revelation where you find it (apart from the fact that common sense tells one time will exist, i mean if in heaven you have so much as a thought then there will be a time before your thought and a time after your thought, not to mention a time before any actions and a time after any actions.
Its not possible to exist without time frankly.)

Anyway, back to revelation, check out Revelation 22:1-2. its pretty clear time exists otherwise why would there continue to be months, which are themselves a measure of time.

It’s quite possible to exist without time

Revelation also says no more days. How can you have months and not days? Revelation is attempting to use human language to describe heaven which is difficult. I know it’s hard to comprehend existence outside of the construct of time, but that’s ok. It doesn’t make it any less true that time is a created concept.

Sorn · Feb 23, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
It’s quite possible to exist without time

Revelation also says no more days. How can you have months and not days? Revelation is attempting to use human language to describe heaven which is difficult. I know it’s hard to comprehend existence outside of the construct of time, but that’s ok. It doesn’t make it any less true that time is a created concept.

By 'no more days' you are probably referring to the 'there will be no night' type of comments in revelation. There may well be no night (personally not sure about that) but in any case time would not be measured by the orbit around the sun. Time in our modern world is already not measured that way, but rather by more precise atomic scale measurements.

As such there will be other ways to measure time in heaven that do not involve a planet orbiting a star, but time (or periods of time and the language of time ) will be measured and be part of life.

Actually, i agree with you that time is a created concept, all the more reason for it to continue to exist in heaven, there will be nothing to stop people creating calendars, time pieces etc to mark the 'concept of time'. I will still be able to say to you , lets meet for lunch at 1 o'clock 72 hours from now or something similar.

Nothing wrong or sinful or anti God about the concept of time so no reason to presume it won't continue to be used always.

Sorn · Feb 23, 2020

So revelation 22:1-2 talks about the trees bearing their fruit every month. So if one of these trees bears a bunch of fruit, and does so on a regular basis, then this could be used to measure time, with each new generation of fruit 'marking' the 'start' of a new month.
As long as these intervals were consistent then here is just one way to have a yardstick for time though i'm sure there will be much better ways.

rockytopva · Feb 23, 2020

In eternal terms if we had to keep track of time the number and capacity for memory would also have tip be eternal. In what we call years trillions of years to the trillionth power will occur.

There is knowledge that will vanish away in the eternal world, including, I believe, the accounting of time....

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. - 1 Corinthians 13:8

Sorn · Feb 23, 2020

rockytopva said:
In eternal terms if we had to keep track of time the number and capacity for memory would also have tip be eternal. In what we call years trillions of years to the trillionth power will occur.

There is knowledge that will vanish away in the eternal world, including, I believe, the accounting of time....

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. - 1 Corinthians 13:8

But we already keep track of billions of years of time (13 billion years since the supposed big bang). Its no stress for me to talk about events 12 billion years ago.

Or are you proposing that you in heaven you won't be able to remember what you were doing 12 billion years ago or a trillion years ago? Maybe, but that won't be a reason not to use the concept of time.
I don't remember what I did when i was 3 but that does not mean i go and throw out all my clocks and calendars. That would just be nuts!

They are very useful to me now.

rockytopva · Feb 23, 2020

Sorn said:
But we already keep track of billions of years of time (13 billion years since the supposed big bang). Its no stress for me to talk about events 12 billion years ago.

Or are you proposing that you in heaven you won't be able to remember what you were doing 12 billion years ago or a trillion years ago? Maybe, but that won't be a reason not to use the concept of time.
I don't remember what I did when i was 3 but that does not mean i go and throw out all my clocks and calendars. That would just be nuts!

They are very useful to me now.

If the earth is not orbiting the sun how will we account for time?

rockytopva · Feb 23, 2020

I can imagine the mass of a universe floating in the outer darkness as one big chunk.

And the earth was without form, and void; - Genesis 1:2

We find in Genesis chapter one that the earth was without form and void. Then God said, "Let there be light!" And there was light - Genesis 1:3

The light was made available through the dis-association of mass. I believe this was what scientist call the big boom. As the mass dissociated into light and energy it also spread out from a point of origin.

I would say the equivalent (I say equivalent as the concept of time was not in existence) of 15 billion years went by and then God moves again...

"And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness." - - Genesis 1:4

For God to have divided the light from the darkness I would assume that the planet earth is formed and put into orbit around the sun.

"And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." - Genesis 1:5

Notice that the first day was not declared until after the planet earth was put in orbit. Therefore the known universe is very old, and the planet earth is in comparison very young. The creation story then unfolds as scripture told it...

Day 1 - Planet Earth is put into orbit, dividing the light from the darkness.
Day 2 - The atmosphere is created
Day 3 - Dry land arises from the sea
Day 4 - The atmosphere clears, allowing the moon and the stars to shine through
Day 5 - The sea creatures are created
Day 6 - Land based creatures, including man, are created
Day 7 - God rests on the seventh day

Very soon the mass is going to return to the light and the energy from whence it was once disassociated...

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3:10

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. - 2 Peter 3:12-13

rockytopva · Feb 23, 2020

I believe also that man was created from the once space chunk that floated in space. If God created man from nothing he would return to nothing. But... God created man from dust, similar to that which was without form. And to the space chunk man will return...

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. - Genesis 3:19

And if God does not act I believe the gravity of the sun will pull our ashes in and we will end up as space chunk floating in space!

Sorn · Feb 24, 2020

rockytopva said:
If the earth is not orbiting the sun how will we account for time?

We don't use the earth orbiting the sun to measure time anymore these days. There are far more sophisticated and sensitive methods used.
There will always be heaps of ways to mark time if one has any creativity.

Amittai · Apr 15, 2020

I was sitting around like I do

and I suddenly said to myself "Time is an extrusion, and the dimensions of space are an intrusion"!

In the light of what Skywriting and Rockytopva point out, have I got it the wrong way about?

rockytopva · Apr 15, 2020

Amittai said:
I was sitting around like I do and I suddenly said to myself "Time is an extrusion, and the dimensions of space are an intrusion"!

In the light of what Skywriting and Rockytopva point out, have I got it the wrong way about?

When I observe my little cat I find a source of mass, intelligence, and spirituality. When I study birds I find many with unique features.

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made. - Isaiah 57:15-16

How much greater intelligence has he who inhabits eternity? Who has the ability to disassociate space rock (m) to plasma (E/c2) and to bring our creative existence into reality?

Amittai · Apr 15, 2020

Space is the toothpaste tube, and time is the toothpaste?

Ophiolite · Apr 15, 2020

These arguments about eternity seem to have been going on for ever.

Time is not an Eternal Concept

Love to pray! :)

Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints!

The Librarian

Well-Known Member

CF Advisory team

Love to pray! :)

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Love to pray! :)

Well-Known Member

Love to pray! :)

Love to pray! :)

Love to pray! :)

Well-Known Member

baggage apostate

Love to pray! :)

baggage apostate

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

Similar threads