The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

Der Alte · Feb 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
I'm not talking about commentary. I'm talking about the biased translation. The proof is in the pudding.

But you have provided no proof, pudding, or otherwise that any version is biased. That will require lexical or grammatical evidence versus the sky is falling chicken little claims of biased UR writers, I will not dignify them with the title "scholars." What do I mean by scholarship? Please observe the below definition from BDAG.
Note the entries highlighted in blue are the more than 40 historical sources the scholars consulted in determining the meaning of the words. Contrary to popular rumors scholars don't sit around making up meanings for words.

αἰώνιος (ία ③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις;/[eternal home] Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 [everlasting kingdom](ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.- Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv [1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 33–34). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

An older edition of BDAG available online at this link.
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Gingrich & Danker

Saint Steven · Feb 21, 2020

"Pardon is the highest form of justice." - Brad Jursak

Brad Jersak - 'A More Christlike God' Conference (Part 2) - Altona, Manitoba, Canada (20.02.2015)
A seminar presented at Seeds Church Altona, Canada on February 19-21, 2016

nolidad · Feb 21, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Do I really have to post it again? (the 4th or 5th time)

Still waiting for the first time. Just showing that Jesus is the savior of the world, does not show that people in the lake of fire can repent!

Saint Steven said:
I'm not talking about commentary. I'm talking about the biased translation. The proof is in the pudding.

Well then, present your evidence that greek and English translations were corrupted by bias!

Saint Steven said:
How does that support a forever burning hell? (it doesn't)

That was in response to your questioning of Jesus being punished by the Father! God the Father tortured Jesus like no other human will ever have to go through- for He suffered for all the sins of the world.

I take it evangelism is a very low priority for you seeing as you falsely believe everyone will be saved anyway!

But let us look at one verse and write it as you hypothesize:

John 3:36 King James Version (KJV)
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

But the Word according to Saint Steven says this on the B part of the verse:
and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life (well actually they will after they go through a purging fire) but the wrath of God remains on him (only for awhile)

That looks more like the JW false bible than the word of God.

nolidad · Feb 21, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Is the Bible ‘the Word of God’ ?
https://www.ptm.org/17CWRm/August/Is the Bible the Word of God August-2017-CWRm.pdf

So you have no problems wit homosexuality or pedophilia or murder. After all they may be cracks and smears and dust "on the Window" YOu are just left defending your positions based on your opinion and not the Word of God- for to you if you buy that septic system refuse above- you cannot with authority defend any position you hold!

Peter had a lot to say about people downgrading the word of God!

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

If you buy that mans garbage- you need to flee!

Der Alte · Feb 21, 2020

Saint Steven said:
"Pardon is the highest form of justice." - Brad Jursak
[Video omitted]
Brad Jersak - 'A More Christlike God' Conference (Part 2) - Altona, Manitoba, Canada (20.02.2015)
A seminar presented at Seeds Church Altona, Canada on February 19-21, 2016

Another UR guy giving his unsupported opinion. We have multiple threads of the same, same. Zero credible scholarship. See post #761, above.

FineLinen · Feb 21, 2020

nolidad said:
Just showing that Jesus is the savior of the world, does not show that people in the lake of fire can repent!

With absolute confidence the entire pas can rest with assurance the Saviour IS the Saviour of the whole world. Not only IS He Saviour of the whole radical all of the world, He IS Saviour of every dimension of the heavens, the earth & the underworld: the whole radical all!

Every knee bowing in unrestrained worship IN/EN the Name of all names!

Saint Steven · Feb 21, 2020

nolidad said:
Still waiting for the first time. Just showing that Jesus is the savior of the world, does not show that people in the lake of fire can repent!

Here it is for the 4th or 5th time.

Those under the earth (in the realm of the dead) can acknowledge (whole-heartedly and without reservation) that Jesus Christ is Lord. Which can only be spoken through the person by the Holy Spirit, which results in salvation. Thus salvation after this life on earth.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Saint Steven · Feb 21, 2020

nolidad said:
Well then, present your evidence that greek and English translations were corrupted by bias!

Like I said, the proof is in the pudding. The English translations are in fact corrupted by bias. What's to prove beyond that? It's a Damnationist text.

Saint Steven said: ↑
I'm not talking about commentary. I'm talking about the biased translation. The proof is in the pudding.

Saint Steven · Feb 21, 2020

nolidad said:
That was in response to your questioning of Jesus being punished by the Father! God the Father tortured Jesus like no other human will ever have to go through- for He suffered for all the sins of the world.

Again... How does that support a forever burning hell? (it doesn't)

Saint Steven · Feb 21, 2020

nolidad said:
Peter had a lot to say about people downgrading the word of God!

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

He was talking about the Apostle Paul. Do you claim that Paul was "downgrading the word of God"? Wow.

Saint Steven · Feb 21, 2020

nolidad said:
So you have no problems wit homosexuality or pedophilia or murder. After all they may be cracks and smears and dust "on the Window" YOu are just left defending your positions based on your opinion and not the Word of God- for to you if you buy that septic system refuse above- you cannot with authority defend any position you hold!

Are you claiming that God grades on a curve?
To me, sin is sin.

Der Alte · Feb 21, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Like I said, the proof is in the pudding. The English translations are in fact corrupted by bias. What's to prove beyond that?
Saint Steven said: ↑
I'm not talking about commentary. I'm talking about the biased translation. The proof is in the pudding.

Is there an echo in here? I already addressed this baseless accusation.
You have provided no evidence, pudding or otherwise. merely repeating over and over and over that English translations are biased is meaningless without evidence.
I think I posted the BDAG definition of Aionios and indicated 40+ citations of historical sources which the authors consulted in determining the correct meaning of the word. Can you provide any comparable meaningful evidence to support your accusation? I don't mean quotes from so-called scholars saying "Aionios never means eternal" etc. etc. Your accusations and the scholars opinions are equally meaningless without evidence.

Der Alte · Feb 21, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

What biased source did you copy/paste this from? It is dishonest to quote a source without identifying it. Here is the correct definition of exomolegeo from BDAG. The 50+ historical sources the authors consulted are highlighted in blue. Note, "whole-heartedly" is not part of the definition.
"Exomolegeo" occurs eleven times in the NT. 8 times it is translated "confess." It never means "whole-heartedly."

ἐξομολογέω (s. next entry and ὁμολογέω) 1 aor. ἐξωμολόγησα; fut. mid. ἐξομολογήσομαι; aor. mid. ἐξωμολογησάμην LXX (quotable since III B.C.—Mitt-Wilck. II/2, 20, 18; 37, 17—PHib 30, 18 [300–271 B.C.]; also LXX, pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph.).
① to indicate acceptance of an offer or proposal, promise, consent, act., abs. Lk 22:6 (the act. is found as rarely [perh. Alex. Aphr., An. Mant. II 1 p. 168, 15] as the pass. [perh. SIG 685, 95]).
② to make an admission of wrong-doing/sin, confess, admit, mid. (Plut., Eum. 594 [17, 7], Anton. 943 [59, 3] τ. ἀλήθειαν, Stoic. Repugn. 17 p. 1042a; Sus 14; Jos., Bell. 1, 625, Ant. 8, 256) τὶ someth. (POslo 17, 14 [136 A.D.] τὸ ἀληθές; Cyranides p. 100, 18 πάντα ὅσα ἔπραξεν; Orig., C. Cels. 2, 11, 30 τὸ ἡμαρτημένον) τὰς ἁμαρτίας (Jos., Ant. 8, 129; s. the ins in Steinleitner, nos. 13, 5; 23, 2; 24, 11; 25, 10) Mt 3:6; Mk 1:5 (cp. 1QS 1:24–26); Js 5:16 (s. PAlthaus, Zahn Festgabe 1928, 1ff); Hv 1, 1, 3; Hs 9, 23, 4. τὰς ἁ. τῷ κυρίῳ confess sins to the Lord Hv 3, 1, 5, cp. 6. τὰ παραπτώματα ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ confess transgressions in the congregation D 4:14. περὶ τῶν παραπτωμάτων make a confession of transgressions 1 Cl 51:3. ἐπὶ τ. ἁμαρτίαις for sins B 19:12. Abs. make a confession of sins Ac 19:18; 2 Cl 8:3. W. dat. of the one to whom sins are confessed 1 Cl 52:1, 2 (w. similarity in form to Ps 7:18; 117:19 and sim. Ps passages, but not=praise because of 1 Cl 51:3 [s. 4 below]).—JSchnitzer, D. Beichte im Lichte d. Religionsgesch.: Ztschr. f. Völkerpsychol. 6, 1930, 94–105; RPettazzoni, La confessione dei Peccati II ’35.
③ to declare openly in acknowledgment, profess, acknowledge, mid. (PHib 30, s. above; POxy 1473, 9; Lucian, Herm. 75) w. ὅτι foll. Phil 2:11 (Is 45:23; s. 4 below).—Nägeli 67.
④ fr. the mngs. ‘confess’ and ‘profess’ there arose, as Rtzst., Erlösungsmyst. 252 shows, the more general sense to praise, in acknowledgment of divine beneficence and majesty (so mostly LXX; TestJob 40:2 πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ) w. dat. of the one praised (oft. LXX; TestSol 1:5; Philo, Leg. All. 1, 80) σοί (2 Km 22:50; 1 Ch 29:13; Ps 85:12; 117:28 al.; Did., Gen. 60, 20) Mt 11:25=Lk 10:21 (s. Norden, Agn. Th. 277–308; JWeiss, GHeinrici Festschr. 1914, 120ff; TArvedson, D. Mysterium Chr. [Mt 11:25–30] ’37; NWilliams, ET 51, ’40, 182–86; 215–20; AHunter, NTS 8, ’62, 241–49); Ro 15:9 (Ps 17:50); 1 Cl 26:2; 61:3; B 6:16 (cp. Ps 34:18). τῷ θεῷ (Tob 14:7; Philo, Leg. All. 2, 95) Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23); τῷ κυρίῳ (fr. Gen 29:35 on, oft. in LXX) 1 Cl 48:2 (Ps 117:19); Hm 10, 3, 2.—DELG s.v. ὁμός. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 351). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Saint Steven · Feb 21, 2020

nolidad said:
YOu are just left defending your positions based on your opinion and not the Word of God-

Are you calling an English translation of the Bible the "Word of God"?

The Bible says that Jesus is the Word of God. (nothing else is)

Saint Steven · Feb 21, 2020

nolidad said:
So you have no problems wit homosexuality or pedophilia or murder. After all they may be cracks and smears and dust "on the Window" YOu are just left defending your positions based on your opinion and not the Word of God- for to you if you buy that septic system refuse above- you cannot with authority defend any position you hold!

Peter had a lot to say about people downgrading the word of God!

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

If you buy that mans garbage- you need to flee!

Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean you should characterize it as "septic system refuse" and "that mans garbage". That was uncalled for. The article was written by Pastor Greg Albrecht.

Saint Steven · Feb 21, 2020

nolidad said:
YOu are just left defending your positions based on your opinion and not the Word of God- ...you cannot with authority defend any position you hold!

My authority is based on my relationship with the living God, not on a book made of paper and ink.

2 Corinthians 5:17-19
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Der Alte · Feb 21, 2020

Saint Steven said:
...

<SS>My authority is based on my relationship with the living God, not on a book made of paper and ink.
2 Corinthians 5:17-19
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.<SS>

...

Unfortunately for the UR crowd this verse is qualified. It only pertains to people "in Christ" not all mankind. "If anyone is NOT in Christ the new creation has NOT come." And if anyone is not "in Christ" they are not part of us.

FineLinen · Feb 21, 2020

Saint Steven said:
My authority is based on my relationship with the living God, not on a book made of paper and ink.

Dear Saint: This is precisely the foundation for our authority, our living union with the Living God. One can be versed in the red letters and the black letters of the Gospels, and totally miss the white spaces between the lines!

"Christ’s love has moved me to such extremes. His love has the first and last word in everything we do. Our firm decision is to work from this focused center: One man died for everyone. That puts everyone in the same boat, included everyone in his death so that everyone could also be included in his life, a resurrection life far better life than people ever lived on their own." (MSG)

Saint Steven · Feb 22, 2020

FineLinen said:
Dear Saint: This is precisely the foundation for our authority, our living union with the Living God. One can be versed in the red letters and the black letters of the Gospels, and totally miss the white spaces between the lines!

"Christ’s love has moved me to such extremes. His love has the first and last word in everything we do. Our firm decision is to work from this focused center: One man died for everyone. That puts everyone in the same boat, included everyone in his death so that everyone could also be included in his life, a resurrection life far better life than people ever lived on their own." (MSG)

I agree. Here are the only red letters I care about. (scripture below)

As believers we have ALREADY been raised up with Christ and seated with him in the heavenly realms. What more authority could you want? A book made of paper and ink? - lol

Ephesians 2:4-7
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

Charlie24 · Feb 22, 2020

Saint Steven said:
I agree. Here are the only red letters I care about. (scripture below)

As believers we have ALREADY been raised up with Christ and seated with him in the heavenly realms. What more authority could you want? A book made of paper and ink? - lol

Ephesians 2:4-7
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

It doesn't bother you to care only about a few scriptures that you choose to accept?

The whole Word of God must be taken so that scripture can interpret scripture.

If not, that's when scripture is taken out of context and the truth is lost.

This is a huge error on your part and God is very displeased with it!

The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

This is me about 1 yr. old.

You can call me Steve

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