The replacement of the heavens and earth occur at the second coming, not AD70

parousia70 · Feb 21, 2020

If Honesty is truly valued in this study, we should recognize and affirm that one does not have to be a Full Preterist to understand the passing away of the old covenant "Heaven and Earth" has already taken place for us:

C.H. Spurgeon (NOT a Full Preterist) On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

Contrary to the OP's assertion, the hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone. The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

COMMON OLD TESTAMENT USES OF "HEAVEN AND EARTH"

(1) The witness to the Covenant between Jehovah and Israel was "Heaven and Earth", and that heaven and earth was specific, relating and connected only to Israel.

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

Deuteronomy 4:26
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:

Leviticus 26:19
And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

Psalms 50:4
He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

Isaiah 1:2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me

(2) Israel's institution as a Nation under Moses and Joshua was the planting of Heavens and Earth

Isaiah 51:15-16
For I am Yahweh your God, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar: Yahweh of Hosts is his name. I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, You are my people.

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

(3) The "shaking/removal of Heavens and Earth" describes any of Jehovah's comings in judgment upon nations and individuals

Against Ancient Babylon
Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 51:48
Then the heaven and the earth, and all that [is] therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD

Against King Saul
Psalms 18:7-10
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills removed and were shaken, because he was wroth ... He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

Against Persia during Zerubbabel's Day
Haggai 2:21
Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth

So, getting back to the use of the phrase, we are to understand it as it was used by the OT prophets, Jesus and the writer of Hebrews int eh Context of God's Judgment Comings. We can see that Jesus' didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom.

Again, as we can see, Full Preterism is Not Required in order for this completely orthodox understanding of the passing of Heaven and earth to be held by the Honest Christian.

keras · Feb 21, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
That is classic Premil. But the only way that Premil survives is by ignoring the multitude of texts that forbid the doctrine. Scripture repeatedly depicts the second coming as climactic, with zero survivors. Your avoidance of them above is an evidence of this. That is why so many people are abandoning Premil.

Please provide the prophecy that says when Jesus Returns, He will kill everyone.
Do not confuse the prophesies in 2 Peter 3:14 and Revelation 21:1-7 with the Return.

So; have you abandoned the idea of a 'rapture' removal?
Is the Millennium to be only for Spiritual beings? This idea is refuted by Isaiah 65:20 and Revelation 20:1-10

parousia70 · Feb 21, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
Of course I believe what came into existence after the flood were the same material! Don't treat me like a fool! However, St. Peter is using the flood as a precursive description of the end of the world. In that case I believe it will be a new earth.

So you believe the Flood only "figuratively" destroyed the heavens and earth, and the heavens and earth that came into being afterward were only FIGURATIVELY a New Creation? even though Peter said the flood LITERALLY destroyed both the heavens and earth and Peter said the post flood heavens and Earth were LITERALLY New and materially, physically different than the heavens and earth that existed Before the flood?

I'm simply trying to understand what you actually believe, since it appears you interpret Peters testimony about the flood, and what the flood accomplished in removing the Pre flood heavens and earth from Material existence, and replacing it with a Materially NEW and Different, Post Flood Heavens and earth, quite figuratively.

keras · Feb 21, 2020

parousia70 said:
Again, as we can see, Full Preterism is Not Required in order for this completely orthodox understanding of the passing of Heaven and earth to be held by the Honest Christian.

Which will happen AFTER the Millennium, as Revelation 20 makes clear.

Christian Gedge · Feb 21, 2020

parousia70 said:
I'm simply trying to understand what you actually believe, since it appears you interpret Peters testimony about the flood, and what the flood accomplished in removing the Pre flood heavens and earth from Material existence, and replacing it with a Materially NEW and Different, Post Flood Heavens and earth, quite figuratively.

Both flood and fire are literal. In the same way as AD 70 was a precursor of a greater judgement in the future, so the flood was precursor of a greater destruction in the future. The heavens and earth (our solar system) will, IMO, be replaced. Im not talking figurative.

parousia70 · Feb 21, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
Both flood and fire are literal. In the same way as AD 70 was a precursor of a greater judgement in the future, the flood was precursor of a greater destruction in the future. The heavens and earth (our solar system) will IMO be replaced.

I know the flood was literal, but it appears you believe the results of the Flood that Peter testified were literal, (the complete material destruction - and subsequent material replacement - of Heaven and earth) were merely figurative. It appears you believe, (as do I) that even though Peter was using VERY Literal terms about the Heavens and earth being Destroyed by the flood and replaced with a new heavens and earth after the flood, that those terms are to be understood Figuratively, not Literally.
Do I have that right?

If so, I am in full agreement.

Christian Gedge · Feb 21, 2020

parousia70 said:
I know the flood was literal, but it appears you believe the results of the Flood that Peter testified were literal, (the complete material destruction - and subsequent material replacement - of Heaven and earth) were merely figurative. It appears you believe, (as do I) that even though Peter was using VERY Literal terms about the Heavens and earth being Destroyed by the flood and replaced with a new heavens and earth after the flood, that those terms are to be understood Figuratively, not Literally.
Do I have that right?

No. As we know, the flood caused the earth to 'perish' inasmuch as all life died and the surface of the earth was devastated. Damage may also have occurred in the atmosphere. (heavens) Then the earth recovered as related in the book Genesis. So, should I call that 'perish' figurative or literal? I call it literal.

Now fast-forward to 2 Peter 3:5-7 where he uses the flood as a precursor to explain the end of the world. Precursors are lesser than the event they foreshadow, and such is the case in this scripture. So, his description of the planet perishing in fire is also literal. The difference is, that the planet (and its solar system) will perish to the point of not recovering.

So, my understanding of a 'New Heavens and a new Earth' is a new solar system. Again, literal.

Now, getting back to the Olivet discourse: It surprises me that so many accept as literal, the flood of Noah, yet they rush to figurative commentary when it comes to the Olivet discourse. AD 70 is magnified and the end of the world is trivialised. I seriously believe that we should get back to the historical understanding as explained in the opening post of this thread.

sovereigngrace · Feb 21, 2020

parousia70 said:
If Honesty is truly valued in this study, we should recognize and affirm that one does not have to be a Full Preterist to understand the passing away of the old covenant "Heaven and Earth" has already taken place for us:

C.H. Spurgeon (NOT a Full Preterist) On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

Contrary to the OP's assertion, the hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone. The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

Charles Spurgeon agrees with all non-Full-Preterists on this. He locates Isaiah 65 and Rev 21/22 at the coming of Christ. You are obviously twisting his words because you have no biblical support.

"Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people."—Isaiah 65:17-19.

Spurgeon said: "THIS PASSAGE, like the rest of Isaiah's closing chapters, will have completest fulfillment in the latter days when Christ shall come, when the whole company of his elect ones shall have been gathered out from the world, when the whole creation shall have been renewed, when new heavens and a new earth shall be the product of the Savior's power, when, for ever and for ever, perfected saints of God shall behold his face, and joy and rejoice in him.”

Revelation 21:1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

"Astronomers tell us that, within living memory, several starry worlds have burnt out, and vanished out of sight. The apostle Peter has told us that this world also will be destroyed by fire, but it will afterwards be renewed, and a new sky and a new earth will appear after the first firmament and the first earth shall have become extinct. God means that this planet should continue to exist after it has had a new creation, and renewed its youth. The regeneration of his people, their new birth, is a foretaste of what is yet to happen to this whole world of ours. We have the first-fruits of the Spirit, and we groan within ourselves while we wait for the fullness of that new creation. “The first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea,” because the sea is the emblem of separation, and destruction, and unrest. The sea hath her dead which shall be given up. The sea now cannot rest nor be quiet, but all shall be calm and tranquil in the new heaven and the new earth.

Revelation 21:2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

John saw, in vision, the glorified Church of God coming to dwell on the new earth, descending for a while from heaven to be the very glory of the newly-created world.

Revelation 21:3-4. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

When there shall be a new heaven and a new earth, and the Church shall be in her new and glorified condition, then there will be no need for all those purifying forces which have been so active here below. There shall be no death, nor sorrow nor crying, nor pain, nor trial of any kind; all shall be happiness for all shall be holiness. And then, as God dwelt of old among his people in the wilderness, and as Jesus Christ, the Word, was made flesh, and tabernacled among us, and we beheld his glory, so in that new world shall God reveal himself to his people by a special indwelling and a peculiar nearness."

sovereigngrace · Feb 21, 2020

parousia70 said:
Do you believe the Heavens and Earth that came into existence AFTER the Flood were the same Material Heavens and Earth Created in Genesis, or were they a Brand New Material Creation, that fully replaced the Pre-Flood heavens and earth that perished, as Peter States in 2 Peter 3:5-7 ?

You are mixing up the ungodly people (kosmos) and the physical earth (gē). The world (kosmos) was destroyed in Noah's day but the earth (gē) was not. Big different! The kosmos can refer to the physical earth but can also refer to the people or orderly arrangement on earth. Anyway, there is a major difference between the world being enveloped by water and being purged by fire. What is more, when the heavens and earth are coupled together (as they are here) they always mean exactly that. Significantly, the word gē is employed to describe the physical globe.

sovereigngrace · Feb 21, 2020

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Christian Gedge said:
No. As we know, the flood caused the earth to 'perish' inasmuch as all life died and the surface of the earth was devastated. Damage may also have occurred in the atmosphere. (heavens) Then the earth recovered as related in the book Genesis. So, should I call that 'perish' figurative or literal? I call it literal.

Now fast-forward to 2 Peter 3:5-7 where he uses the flood as a precursor to explain the end of the world. Precursors are lesser than the event they foreshadow, and such is the case in this scripture. So, his description of the planet perishing in fire is also literal. The difference is, that the planet (and its solar system) will perish to the point of not recovering.

So, my understanding of a 'New Heavens and a new Earth' is a new solar system. Again, literal.

Now, getting back to the Olivet discourse: It surprises me that so many accept as literal, the flood of Noah, yet they rush to figurative commentary when it comes to the Olivet discourse. AD 70 is magnified and the end of the world is trivialised. I seriously believe that we should get back to the historical understanding as explained in the opening post of this thread.

Great thoughts! What is very significant is that there are 2 different Greek words in view. The world (kosmos) was destroyed in Noah's day but the earth (gē) was not. Big different! The kosmos can refer to the physical earth but can also refer to the people or orderly arrangement on earth. Anyway, there is a major difference between the world being enveloped by water and being purged by fire. Also, when the heavens and earth are coupled together (as they are in 2 Peter 3) they always mean exactly that. Significantly, the word gē is employed to describe the physical globe. Anyway:

· Water may clean a metal but fire purifies and cleanses it.
· Water may drown someone (as in the flood) but fire burns up and melts.

2 Peter 2:4-9: “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world (kosmos), but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world (kosmos) of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked. (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.”

This passage highlights the great faithfulness of God toward His elect and the justice of God against the rebellious. It is a solemn reminder to mankind of the awful consequences of rejecting God or His gracious plan of salvation. Peter points us back in time to God’s treatment of the rebellious angels at the beginning and his dealing with Noah’s world and also the iniquitous cities of Sodom and Gomorrha in Lot’s day. The two mentions of “world” in v 5 (referring to Noah’s day) are not talking about the physical earth (gē) but rather “the old world … the world of the ungodly” – talking about the wicked. The Greek word for “world” here is kosmos describing the human world that rejected God in Noah’s day.

Most commentators accept that Peter is speaking of actual people in in v 5 and not the physical world.

The whole context and wording here is clear and unequivocal. It is showing us God’s ultimate grace when dealing with those who humble themselves and His ultimate justice when dealing with rebellious angels and humans. We see that in Peter’s conclusion of his thought in v 9: “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.”

2 Peter 3:3-7 similarly says: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (ouranos) were of old (or “a long time”), and the earth (gē) standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world (kosmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens (ouranos) and the earth (gē), which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

Again: the writer distinguishes between the ungodly world (kosmos) and the physical earth (gē). Peter deliberately uses the two different Greek words to differentiate between them. This is in context with everything he had previously said in 2 Peter 2.

2 Peter 3:8-13 couldn't be clearer: “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens (ouranos) shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements (stoicheion) shall melt with fervent heat, the earth (gē) also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens (ouranos) being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements (stoicheion) shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens (ouranos) and a new earth (gē), wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Creation will be finally purged of wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and insurrection is indeed destroyed by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as Premils insists. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.

The new heavens and new earth are such a stark contrast to this current present evil age that is blighted by all the result of the fall, including the existence of Satan. The new arrangement is especially noted for “righteousness.”

Scripture tells us that we are coming back to earth, but it will be a regenerated earth (Malachi 4:1-3, I Corinthians 15:50, 2 Peter 3). It will be an earth totally purged of all deterioration. The new heavens and a new earth (in whatever form God chooses) will appear at the Coming of Christ. It will involve (at very least) the burning up of the crust of our current earth. This current earth will be totally changed/regenerated – making it a new curse-free environment. The earth will be restored to its previous pristine condition. These passages would sway me towards the position that this earth will remain forever – only in a new condition.

sovereigngrace · Feb 22, 2020

parousia70 said:
If Honesty is truly valued in this study, we should recognize and affirm that one does not have to be a Full Preterist to understand the passing away of the old covenant "Heaven and Earth" has already taken place for us:

C.H. Spurgeon (NOT a Full Preterist) On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

Contrary to the OP's assertion, the hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone. The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

COMMON OLD TESTAMENT USES OF "HEAVEN AND EARTH"

(1) The witness to the Covenant between Jehovah and Israel was "Heaven and Earth", and that heaven and earth was specific, relating and connected only to Israel.

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

Deuteronomy 4:26
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:

Leviticus 26:19
And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

Psalms 50:4
He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

Isaiah 1:2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me

(2) Israel's institution as a Nation under Moses and Joshua was the planting of Heavens and Earth

Isaiah 51:15-16
For I am Yahweh your God, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar: Yahweh of Hosts is his name. I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, You are my people.

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

(3) The "shaking/removal of Heavens and Earth" describes any of Jehovah's comings in judgment upon nations and individuals

Against Ancient Babylon
Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 51:48
Then the heaven and the earth, and all that [is] therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD

Against King Saul
Psalms 18:7-10
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills removed and were shaken, because he was wroth ... He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

Against Persia during Zerubbabel's Day
Haggai 2:21
Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth

So, getting back to the use of the phrase, we are to understand it as it was used by the OT prophets, Jesus and the writer of Hebrews int eh Context of God's Judgment Comings. We can see that Jesus' didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom.

Again, as we can see, Full Preterism is Not Required in order for this completely orthodox understanding of the passing of Heaven and earth to be held by the Honest Christian.

Nothing that you show actually supports your claims.

What in the world has 'the heavens passing away with a great noise' to do with the old covenant passing away?
What in the world has 'the elements melting with fervent heat' to do with the old covenant passing away?
What in the world has 'the works on earth being burned up' to do with the old covenant passing away?

Can I also remind you that we are actually talking about the Greek words ouranos and gē mentioned in 2 Peter 3, not the Hebrew words. 59 times in the New Testament “heaven” and “earth” are found together in the same passage describing exactly what the outside of the box says – what most ordinary people would understand as the “heaven” and “earth.” Interestingly in every case the two Greek words ouranos and gē are employed to describe the heavenly realm and the globe of the earth.

One Son · Feb 22, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Matthew 24 (and its parallel accounts Mark 13 and Luke 21) has confused many Christians over the years, and led to much debate. Bible students have rightly wondered: 'what is it speaking about?' and 'when was or will it be fulfilled?' They want to know: 'is Jesus speaking of one event, or is He speaking of two or more events?' 'Is He talking about the past, namely AD70, or is it speaking about the future, and return of Christ, or is He speaking about both?' 'If He is speaking of both, where does one description finish and another start?'

If we approach this chapter without considering what the disciples actually asked Christ, if we interpret it in a theological vacuum, or if we try to understand it without a good understanding of other relevant Scripture, then we will likely arrive at all types of erroneous conclusions

I’ve noticed a disturbing tendency of late how many Premillennialists and Preterists are increasingly trying to change the commonly accepted literal physical meaning of “heaven and earth” to spiritualize them away as opaque abstract occurrences in order to fit their innovative speculative theology. But the clear, plain, straightforward and consistent understanding of them over the years has been to view them the way they are described – literal and physical. There is no reason to understand them otherwise.

The Greek words interpreted “heaven” and “earth” are ouranos and gē. Interestingly, any time they are coupled together in the same passage they exclusively refer to the literal physical natural cosmos. Of the 59 mentions in the New Testament, they all describe exactly what the outside of the box advertises, and what most ordinary unbiased students would understand, as “heaven” and “earth.” These two Greek words describe the heavenly realm and the globe of the earth.

Philippians 2:10 is the only slight variation, although it is only a technical difference, where a literal reading of the text should read ‘earthly’ (epigeios) and ‘heavenly’ (epouranios). However, both significantly were derived from the same two repeated Greek words used elsewhere to describe “heaven” and “earth” – ouranos and gē. What is more, of the 6 references to “heavens” (plural) and “earth” all use these two same Greek words.

Preterists spiritualize these physical realities that we enjoy with the human eye in order to justify their mistaken belief that Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are wholly historic records referring to AD70. They argue that these figuratively represent Christ’s judgment of Jerusalem because of its rejection of Him, in order to sustain their position. They reject the idea that they are describing the climactic coming of Christ, the end of the world, and the wholesale regeneration of creation. Many Futurists relate these chapters to the end of a future seven years tribulation. But they have to spiritualize the language because a literal reading of it would immediately forbid Premillennialism. After all, these same texts would strongly deny survivors populating a future millennial earth, as the whole natural realm that we see and live in would be totally removed. Both of these positions are therefore untenable.

The detail described, and applied to Christ’s coming, relates to His one final future coming of the Lord. The detail is literal. It is climatic. It is cataclysmic. It sees the removal of the bondage of corruption (all the awful result of the fall) from this earth and the cosmic planets. It also sees the regeneration of this current earth and its replacement with a new perfect order. This beautifully correlates with other climatic Scripture that shows a cosmic conflagration when Jesus comes.

Matthew 24:35-51: “Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. gē] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

Mark 13:31-37: “Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. gē] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”

Luke 21:33-36: “Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. gē] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Men can impose whatever opinions they want on Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, but the only safe and trustworthy interpreter of these passages is Scripture itself. As you piece this whole subject together, it is crucial to bring as much relevant or corresponding sacred text to the table as possible for serious analysis. The informed Bible student will (or should) immediately turn to 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5. As you look at these two passages you are immediately struck by the fact that the writers use the same type of verbiage and similar climactic detail. It is interesting that other related words are attributed to the all-consummating event in view. Few could objectively question that we are looking at a literal event and at the magnificent coming of Jesus Christ in the future in all His climatic power and glory.

Let us establish a few clear absolutes:

First of all, we are looking at a sudden, climactic and unexpected event for the wicked. It is also an expected and long-anticipated event for the righteous.

Secondly, all of these passages describe Jesus coming at the end of time in unparalleled historic power and glory.

Thirdly, reconciling all the relevant texts together shows that we are looking at the final and eternal removal of corruption and the final and eternal introduction of incorruption.

Fourthly, this is clearly not a localized event. (1) The very use of “heaven and earth,” without any attached qualification, allows us to understand this as a universal event. (2) The repeated literal meaning of the two Greek words when combined together supports this conclusion. (3) This is reinforced by the fact the recipients being warned are not merely the residents of the city of Jerusalem, as Preterists argue, but a global audience. As Luke 21:35 states: “For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.” This could not be clearer! Only the partial observer would or could) argue otherwise.

Fifthly, when talking about the removal of the current “heaven and earth,” the 5 major similar texts, describing regeneration of both at the coming of the Lord, use the same Greek word parerchomai indicating the ‘passing away’ of the current corrupt natural arrangement we are experiencing now and its replacement with a brand new incorrupt creation.

Hi,

NET Bible
Heb.9:27 And just as people are appointed to die once, and then* to face judgment.
28 so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await him he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation.

* meta <3326>

meta meta

Pronunciation: met-ah'

Origin: a primary preposition (often used adverbially)

Reference: TDNT - 7:766,1102

PrtSpch: prep

In Greek: met 131, meta 295, mey 43

In NET: with 292, after 46, After 42, to 10, later 6, in 5, against 4, among 4, his companions 4, along with 2, companions 2, on 2, With 2, confidently 2, and 2, carries 1, then 1, bringing 1, along 1, without 1, accompanying 1, when 1, afterward 1, use 1, courageously 1, in company with 1, sue 1, joyfully 1, right behind 1, later on 1, hurriedly 1, hurried 1, eagerly 1, from 1, without losing dignity 1, his own companions 1, each 1
I
In AV: with 345, after 88, among 5, hereafter + 5023 4, afterward + 5023 4, against 4, not tr 1, misc 32

Count: 473

Definition: 1) with, after, behind.

Do you know why the Greek word meta is translated by the word with 345 times and the word after 88 times?

Thanks.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. (2Cor.5:17).

sovereigngrace · Feb 22, 2020

One Son said:
Hi,

NET Bible
Heb.9:27 And just as people are appointed to die once, and then* to face judgment.
28 so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await him he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation.

* meta <3326>

meta meta

Pronunciation: met-ah'

Origin: a primary preposition (often used adverbially)

Reference: TDNT - 7:766,1102

PrtSpch: prep

In Greek: met 131, meta 295, mey 43

In NET: with 292, after 46, After 42, to 10, later 6, in 5, against 4, among 4, his companions 4, along with 2, companions 2, on 2, With 2, confidently 2, and 2, carries 1, then 1, bringing 1, along 1, without 1, accompanying 1, when 1, afterward 1, use 1, courageously 1, in company with 1, sue 1, joyfully 1, right behind 1, later on 1, hurriedly 1, hurried 1, eagerly 1, from 1, without losing dignity 1, his own companions 1, each 1
I
In AV: with 345, after 88, among 5, hereafter + 5023 4, afterward + 5023 4, against 4, not tr 1, misc 32

Count: 473

Definition: 1) with, after, behind.

Do you know why the Greek word meta is translated by the word with 345 times and the word after 88 times?

Thanks.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. (2Cor.5:17).

Not sure what your point is.

claninja · Feb 22, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
Now, getting back to the Olivet discourse: It surprises me that so many accept as literal, the flood of Noah, yet they rush to figurative commentary when it comes to the Olivet discourse. AD 70 is magnified and the end of the world is trivialised. I seriously believe that we should get back to the historical understanding as explained in the opening post of this thread.

Hi CG,

Not sure why you would be surprised that the many accept the flood as literal and it's destruction of the heavens and earth as metaphorical, while at the same time believe the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple literally involved fire, resulting in a metaphorical removal of the heavens and earth.

Here are a few examples of the judgment being literal, and the heavens and earth being removed as metaphorical:

Judgment againts Edom = literal, the heavens rotting = metaphorical
Isaiah 34:3-5 Their slain shall be cast out,and the stench of their corpses shall rise;
the mountains shall flow with their blood. All the host of heaven shall rot away,
and the skies roll up like a scroll.All their host shall fall,as leaves fall from the vine,
like leaves falling from the fig tree. For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
behold, it descends for judgment upon Edom,upon the people I have devoted to destruction.

Judgment againts Babylon = literal, heavens trembling, earth shaken out of its place = metaphorical
Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place,
at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger.

Judgment against Ninevah = literal, hills melting, mountains quaking, earth heaving = metaphorical
Nahum 1:1-5 an oracle concerning Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum of Elkosh. The LORD is a jealous and avenging God;the LORD is avenging and wrathful;the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty.His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; he dries up all the rivers;Bashan and Carmel wither;the bloom of Lebanon withers. The mountains quake before him; the hills melt;
the earth heaves before him,the world and all who dwell in it.

sovereigngrace · Feb 23, 2020

claninja said:
Hi CG,

Not sure why you would be surprised that the many accept the flood as literal and it's destruction of the heavens and earth as metaphorical, while at the same time believe the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple literally involved fire, resulting in a metaphorical removal of the heavens and earth.

Here are a few examples of the judgment being literal, and the heavens and earth being removed as metaphorical:

Judgment againts Edom = literal, the heavens rotting = metaphorical
Isaiah 34:3-5 Their slain shall be cast out,and the stench of their corpses shall rise;
the mountains shall flow with their blood. All the host of heaven shall rot away,
and the skies roll up like a scroll.All their host shall fall,as leaves fall from the vine,
like leaves falling from the fig tree. For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
behold, it descends for judgment upon Edom,upon the people I have devoted to destruction.

Judgment againts Babylon = literal, heavens trembling, earth shaken out of its place = metaphorical
Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place,
at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger.

Judgment against Ninevah = literal, hills melting, mountains quaking, earth heaving = metaphorical
Nahum 1:1-5 an oracle concerning Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum of Elkosh. The LORD is a jealous and avenging God;the LORD is avenging and wrathful;the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty.His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; he dries up all the rivers;Bashan and Carmel wither;the bloom of Lebanon withers. The mountains quake before him; the hills melt;
the earth heaves before him,the world and all who dwell in it.

I have showed you that the first earth is not replaced with the new earth until after the millennium/Satan's little season. You sidestep that because it forbids your reasoning. You are against an ongoing millennium because this would expose Full Preterism for what it is - heresy.

claninja · Feb 23, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I have showed you that the first earth is not replaced with the new earth until after the millennium/Satan's little season. You sidestep that because it forbids your reasoning. You are against an ongoing millennium because this would expose Full Preterism for what it is - heresy.

I’m still confused by your position though

Does Jesus’ 2nd coming occur at the end of the millennium or after satans little season?

sovereigngrace · Feb 23, 2020

claninja said:
I’m still confused by your position though

Does Jesus’ 2nd coming occur at the end of the millennium or after satans little season?

After Satan's little season (which is also after the millennium).

keras · Feb 23, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
After Satan's little season (which is also after the millennium).

Any child reading Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 20:1-13 and Revelation 21:1-7, could see that the sequence is:
After the Great Tribulation; Jesus will Return and destroy Satans army, then will reign on earth for the next 1000 years. Satan will be released for his 'little season', near the end of the Millennium.
Then comes the GWT Judgment, followed by the new heavens and earth for Eternity.

Why is there any controversy about it all?

sovereigngrace · Feb 23, 2020

keras said:
Any child reading Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 20:1-13 and Revelation 21:1-7, could see that the sequence is after the Great Tribulation;
Jesus will Return and destroy Satans army, them will reign on earth for the next 1000 years. Satan will be released for his 'little season', near the end of the Millennium.
Then comes the GWT Judgment, followed by the new heavens and earth for Eternity.

Why is there any controversy about it all?

Revelation is the last of seven recaps relating to the intra-advent period. It takes us right back to the first resurrection - that of Christ.

Christian Gedge · Feb 24, 2020

claninja said:
Hi CG,

Not sure why you would be surprised that the many accept the flood as literal and it's destruction of the heavens and earth as metaphorical, while at the same time believe the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple literally involved fire, resulting in a metaphorical removal of the heavens and earth.

Here are a few examples of the judgment being literal, and the heavens and earth being removed as metaphorical:

Judgment against Edom Isaiah 34:3-5 ...

Judgment against Babylon Isaiah 13:13 ..

Judgment against Ninevah Nahum 1:1-5 ...

The scriptures you quote have a near/far aspect to them, meaning an initial fulfillment that satisfies the prophesy in the short term, but is also precursive of a greater fulfillment to come.

Actually, the text in 2 Peter 3:5-7 is an example of this very thing. He takes a literal judgement and uses it to teach of a greater world-wide event to come.

So, although the last portion of your scriptures may be treated as metaphorical in the era that they were given, they will also fulfill literally, just as Jesus said. (cf. Mark 13:25)

The replacement of the heavens and earth occur at the second coming, not AD70

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