Why hasn't Jesus come back yet?

parousia70 said:

Please add scripture references that you assert demonstrate the premise of each question.

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sovereigngrace said:

I just asked you to present any scripture that you know of. It’s pretty simple request.

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parousia70 said:

And I asked you to prove with scripture why I should accept the premise of each question.
For example you asked:
When does the dead in Christ get their new physical bodies?

1 Corinthians 15:44-46 Concretely demonstrates that the new resurrection Body is Spiritual, not Physical.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. First the Natural, AFTERWARD the Spiritual, not the other way around, roundly refuting the premise of your question:

1 Corinthians 15:44-46
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

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parousia70 said:

And I asked you to prove with scripture why I should accept the premise of each question.
For example you asked:
When does the dead in Christ get their new physical bodies?

1 Corinthians 15:44-46 Concretely demonstrates that the new resurrection Body is Spiritual, not Physical.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. First the Natural, AFTERWARD the Spiritual, not the other way around, roundly refuting the premise of your question:

1 Corinthians 15:44-46
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Saint Paul infallibly declares the resurrection body of the believer is a Spiritual Body, Random internet guy sovereigngrace say no, it is raised a natural body.

When faced with which of these two polar opposite views to accept as true and correct, the Infallibly inspired apostle Paul, or random 21st century internet guy sovereigngrace, my money is on the apostle, every time.

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parousia70 said:

The Coming of the Lord of the Vineyard to Miserably destroy the Chief Priests and Pharisees happened at Acts 10-11?
I don't find that happening there.

Not that the Coming of the lord of the vineyard, is a coming in Judgement to destroy the wicked vinedressers vs 40-41 happens AFTER the Son is Killed, so can not be a parallel to Jesus' Incarnation.

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Erik Nelson said:

the Resurrection began with Jesus, the first fruits thereof

19 chapters of revelation later, the resurrection continues with the martyrs

another thousand years plus after that is the rest of the resurrection

clearly a protracted process spanning much more than a millennium...

only Revelation 1-18 occurred in the first century, the aftermath of Armageddon against apostate Jerusalem (Rev 19-20) has been occurring ever since

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throughfireytrial said:

Hello Erik!

Sorry for the delay, but it was necessary.
The resurrection and the Ascension of Jesus are the firstfruits and serve as both an example and proof of the power of God. We can certainly trust Him to bring us to heaven at the last day if we are true believers.
You state or imply that Revelation 19 speaks of a resurrection of the martyrs. How so? Please elaborate so I can better address this in our discussion. In Revelation 19 we see a futuristic picture of immediate post resurrection and those in white linen are those resurrected believers in heaven.


I feel we are probably reading and interpreting Revelation very differently in general so I digress here a bit. Revelation is not to be read literally or you can derail your faith. Are not all revelations in the Bible interpreted?…look at Daniel for instance…an angel interpreted his visions/revelations for him…they had to be made plain for his understanding. I do not know for certain where you stand so please bear with me while I expound on my view (which happens to be the traditional view) on Revelation interpretation here a bit more. Revelation employs different writing techniques, but mostly it is a riddle and the riddle/s are solved by looking back and reflecting upon all the other books of the Bible. Now this fact may sound a bit uncertain at first because we read the Bible literally for the most part so here are the back up passages for this reasoning…

Proverbs 1:1-6:
The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel:
2 for gaining wisdom and instruction;
for understanding words of insight;
3 for receiving instruction in prudent behaviour,
doing what is right and just and fair;
4 for giving prudence to those who are simple,
knowledge and discretion to the young –
5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
and let the discerning get guidance –
6 for understanding proverbs and parables,
the sayings and riddles of the wise.

Also, Jesus spoke in parables as Psalm 78:2 indicated He would.
So on with my actual response to your post…

Maybe you were not referring to Revelation 19, but rather Revelation 20:4:
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.
In this riddle speak you must discern a teaching of the Scriptures. That teaching is that Christ is our head when we become faithful believers. We are ALL the souls under the altar, beheaded…we make it our goal to sacrifice a worldly life or a seeking after things of this world to instead follow Jesus…our head. We are “beheaded”.
This may be considered a “type of resurrection” because we are dead in our sins until we are born again of Christ…but I won’t expound here unless you indicate to me that you like to discuss further.

The 1000 year reign represents the unknown length of Christ’s reign as He is now reigning. It therefore also represents the unknown time of Christ’s return. This riddle comes from
II Peter 3:8-9:
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.


(unknown time)

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sovereigngrace said:

Your fixation with the coming of Titus and AD70 is breathtaking and nonsensical. Text after text that relates to Christ and His the First and Second Advents are attributed to Titus and AD70.

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sovereigngrace said:

You are mixing up the ungodly people (kosmos) and the physical earth (gē). The world (kosmos) was destroyed in Noah's day but the earth (gē) was not. Big different! The kosmos can refer to the physical earth but can also refer to the people or orderly arrangement on earth. Anyway, there is a major difference between the world being enveloped by water and being purged by fire. What is more, when the heavens and earth are coupled together (as they are here) they always mean exactly that. Significantly, the word gē is employed to describe the physical globe.

2 Peter 2:4-9: “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world (kosmos), but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world (kosmos) of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked. (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.”

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claninja said:

Please avoid strawman arguments, and address the actual content. If it is not a strawman argument please show explicitly where posted that I associate Christ's 1st and 2nd coming with Titus in 70ad. If you ignore this in your response, and cannot provide any evidence from posts where I attribute the 1st and 2nd advents of Christ to Titus coming in 70ad, I'll assume you realized the err of your ways and we can continue to address the actual content of our posts instead of making things up.

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the inhabitants of the world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5;

Thayer's lexicon also confirms that "ge" in 2 peter 3, does not mean earth has a whole, but earth as opposed to the heavens, specifically, things and/or beings that are on the earth; things of the earthly nature.

the earth as opposed to the heavens: Matthew 5:18, 35; Matthew 6:10; Matthew 16:19; Matthew 18:18; Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 2:14; John 12:32; Acts 2:19; Acts 4:24; 2 Peter 3:5, 7, 10, 13; Revelation 21:1; τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς the things and beings that are on the earth, Ephesians 1:10; Colossians 1:16 (T WH omit; L Tr brackets τά); involving a suggestion of mutability, frailty, infirmity, alike in thought and in action, Matthew 6:19; τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς (equivalent to τά ἐπίγεια, Philippians 3:19) terrestrial goods, pleasures, honors, Colossians 3:2 (opposed to τά ἄνω); τά μέλη ὑμῶν τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς the members of your earthly body, as it were the abode and instruments of corrupt desires, Colossians 3:5; ὁ ὤν ἐκ τῆς γῆς ... λαλεῖ (in contrast with Christ as having come from heaven) he who is of earthly (human) origin, has an earthly nature, and speaks as his earthly origin and nature prompt, John 3:31.

This is in complete agreement with @parousia70 statement on the meaning of 'heaven and earth', as well as the meaning of "elements".

"Again, the "passing of heavens and earth" is classic Language the prophets employed over and over to discuss the fall of kingdoms throughout the OT...

The heaven and earth God "laid the foundation of" when He formed the nation of Israel in the wilderness most certainly passed away with a great Noise, when the Lord of the Vineyard came and was the stone that ground them to powder in 66-70:

Isaiah 51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ”

By using scripture to interpret scripture, we can clearly see that the destruction of Jerusalem is associated with the passing away of the 'heavens and earth'

Revelation has the earth and heavens being removed at the time the of the fulfillment of hosea where they cry out for the moutains and rocks to fall on us and cover us.

Revelation 6:12-17 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slaved and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

This is in agreement with Jesus quoting the exact same passage of hosea as being fulfilled upon the destruction of Jerusalem.

Luke 23:28-30 But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’

This is in agreement with Jesus using the same language from the 6th seal about sun being darkened, the moon, not giving its light, and the stars falling in association with the destruction of Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Thayer's greek lexicon disgarees with your position on how earth should be interpreted here.

Thayer's does not include 2 peter 3 either of it's references to the world

4. the earth as a whole, the world (Latinterrarumorbis);

b. the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals: Luke 21:35; Acts 1:8; Acts 10:12; Acts 11:6; Acts 17:26; Hebrews 11:13; Revelation 3:10; αἴρειν ζωήν τίνος or τινα ἀπό τῆς γῆς, Acts 8:33; Acts 22:22; κληρονομεῖν τήν γῆν (see κληρονομέω, 2), Matthew 5:5 (4); πῦρ βάλλειν ἐπί (Rec. εἰς) τήν γῆν, i. e. among men, Luke 12:49, cf. Luke 12:51 and Matthew 10:34; ἐπί τῆς γῆς among men, Luke 18:8; John 17:4.

As shown above, Thayer's includes the use of 'ge' in 2 peter 3 in regards to things of the earth, which is consistant with the usage of kosmos being the inhabitants of the earth and not the whole world itself, thus Peter differentiates between the heavens and earth that existed before the world, the heavens and earth that he was presently existing in, and the new heavens and earth he looked forward to.


Help's word studies doesn't include 2 Peter 3 in the definition of the "whole world"

"The physical earth (1093 /gḗ) is the temporary, probationary place to live out moral preferences "through the body," i.e. as free moral agents (cf. 2 Cor 5:1-10). In this way, God makes an eternal record of everything we do on the earth. Through faith, each scene of life becomes equally, eternally significant (cf. Mt 13:31,32,17:20; cf. also Lk 16:10; Lk 17:6; 2 Pet 1:1)."

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Kilk1 said:

You say it happens when the Son dies, and I have no objection. But what happens? The kingdom of God is taken away and given to a fruitful nation (v. 43). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather from this that this means the Jews lose hold of the kingdom, it being given to the Gentiles. Did this happen when Jesus died? Ephesians 2:13 says, "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off [i.e., Gentiles] have been brought near by the blood of Christ" (NKJV, emphasis mine). When exactly do we first read of Gentiles being saved? In Acts 10-11.

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sovereigngrace said:

Full Preterism wants to spiritualize the whole Bible away as if nothing is literal, means anything or is absolute. It is wicked, evil and antichrist.

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sovereigngrace said:

Do you believe the Bible teaches a literal physical future coming of Christ?

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parousia70 said:

Its a good thing none of us are promoting Full Preterism.

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1. Is there an individual day in the future when all the dead will rise together from the dead to meet Christ at His glorious climactic return?
2. Do you believe the Bible teaches a literal physical future coming of Christ?

parousia70 said:

Do you agree with Paul that OUR resurrected Bodies are Spiritual, not Physical?

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sovereigngrace said:

Is there an individual day in the future when all the dead will rise together from the dead to meet Christ at His glorious climactic return?

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sovereigngrace said:

Was Jesus new spiritual body physical or a spirit after the resurrection?

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parousia70 said:

We are to fixate on what scripture fixates.
For Example, 1 Thess 4:13-17 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies. In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

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Just about everyone who studies NT theology knows that a major change took place for the dead back in the first century. In OT times, the dead did *not* ascend into Heaven but rather were prevented from doing so by the absence of a covenant that cleansed them fully. Moreover, nearly all christian groups admit that a change has occurred for the dead between the OT times and the NT times. What is entirely unclear however is precisely when that change took place. I am making the case that the bible teaches it took place when the Temple was destroyed during their "visitation" (Luke 19:40-44), in the days of vengeance (Luke 21:20-22), when the Lord of the Vineyard came and destroyed the wicked servants and leased the kingdom to a new nation (Matthew 21:4-45).

The destruction of the Temple was hugely significant in that it was the historic signifier that the Old Covenant had vanished and the New had replaced it. Moreover, the destruction of the Temple was a key teaching of Christ, and one St. Paul picks up on at 2 Thess 2:3-4. And so I believe the most obvious and biblical understanding of 1 Thess 4 is that the dead in Hades were to be united to Christ when the Temple was profaned and desecrated. The "change" was huge, for it was the precise "change" that we think of when we distinguish the Old Covenant from the New Covenant.

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parousia70 said:

He rose from the grave in His Physical Body, the self same Body that Hung on the cross, wounds and all.
with no appreciable difference save the fact that He could not be put to death again.
At the ascension, Jesus was then returned back to the glory he had with the Father, that he had before the world was. (John 17:5) And we now know Him after the Flesh "No More" (2 Corinthians 5:16)

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parousia70 said:

I believe as the Creed States: "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end".

I believe ALL Bible eschatology found it's PRIMARY fulfillment in the events leading up to and including Jerusalem's 70AD Destruction, and, that that event PREFIGURES the yet future to us Final Consummation, however the timing and details of that "future to us" event have not been revealed to men. (Deuteronomy 29:29)

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parousia70 said:

And I asked you to prove with scripture why I should accept the premise of each question.
For example you asked:
When does the dead in Christ get their new physical bodies?

1 Corinthians 15:44-46 Concretely demonstrates that the new resurrection Body is Spiritual, not Physical.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. First the Natural, AFTERWARD the Spiritual, not the other way around, roundly refuting the premise of your question:

1 Corinthians 15:44-46
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Saint Paul infallibly declares the resurrection body of the believer is a Spiritual Body, Random internet guy sovereigngrace say no, it is raised a natural body.

When faced with which of these two polar opposite views to accept as true and correct, the Infallibly inspired apostle Paul, or random 21st century internet guy sovereigngrace, my money is on the apostle, every time.

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