Telepathy and telekinesis

Kylie said:

So if someone really believes they are telekinetic, they actually will be?

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Kaon said:

No, I am not talking about delusion. You actually have to believe telekinesis and psychokinesis is real, then you have to believe it is possible for humans, then you have to believe YOU are capable of doing such a thing.

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Isn't that exactly what Kylie said?

Herman Hedning said:

Isn't that exactly what Kylie said?

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The implication is unclear: some people marginalize belief as if it is a whim that can be had and lost - like a delusion (especially with respect to Christians or people who believe in a god).

As an example, you can't just "believe" you can fly; you actually have to change your thinking so you get to the point that you know you can fly - and then you will be able to fly. If you know the story of Peter and Jesus, Peter walked on water until his logic and reason told him he couldn't walk on water - and then he fell through. Taking this as a simple story, the lesson here is belief in action - that you need to forget what you know and get to the point where you know whatever you do is possible.

Any psionic "ability" can be exploited by any human, but humans have a problem with what we believe is real and possible; human logic and reason handicaps humans from several facets of reality.

Kylie said:

So if someone really believes they are telekinetic, they actually will be?

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I find that thought very moving.

Kaon said:

No, I am not talking about delusion. You actually have to believe telekinesis and psychokinesis is real, then you have to believe it is possible for humans, then you have to believe YOU are capable of doing such a thing.

Because the vast majority of the world is incredulous of such things, very few people would get past the "telekinesis is possible" phase - which is the reality. Humans in general are highly romantic, but when it comes to phenomena they can't understand they scoff and run from it, then build schools of thought to keep themselves in blissful, non-thrratening ignorance. That would be fine except that people who exploit humans also exploit their lack of belief in anything unable to perceive or see (including religious persons).

Our human lack of imagination, and our dogged adherence to the ignorance of the status quo is what prevents humans from "growing up". Telekinesis is one facet of reality that laypersons enjoy entertaining but wouldn't dare accept.

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Do you have any evidence at all that this has ever happened? Do you believe this is true? If so, then you would apparently believe that telekinesis is real, that it is possible for Humans, and that presumably you are capable of doing it. So I must ask you if you are telekinetic.

Kaon said:

The implication is unclear: some people marginalize belief as if it is a whim that can be had and lost - like a delusion (especially with respect to Christians or people who believe in a god).

As an example, you can't just "believe" you can fly; you actually have to change your thinking so you get to the point that you know you can fly - and then you will be able to fly. If you know the story of Peter and Jesus, Peter walked on water until his logic and reason told him he couldn't walk on water - and then he fell through. Taking this as a simple story, the lesson here is belief in action - that you need to forget what you know and get to the point where you know whatever you do is possible.

Any psionic "ability" can be exploited by any human, but humans have a problem with what we believe is real and possible; human logic and reason handicaps humans from several facets of reality.

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How about if someone is utterly convinced they are immune to poison? If they are so convinced, will they be able to drink poison and remain unharmed?

Kylie said:

Do you have any evidence at all that this has ever happened? Do you believe this is true? If so, then you would apparently believe that telekinesis is real, that it is possible for Humans, and that presumably you are capable of doing it. So I must ask you if you are telekinetic.

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As far as I know, I am not psionic in any way (telekinetic , hydrokinetic, pyrokinetic, telepathic...) I am empathetic, but I think most people have the capacity to be empaths, and I don't respond "physically" other people's emotions/feelings (e.g. feeling pain because someone has a torn ACL near me.)

Let's say I have an extremely strong positive opinion about the possibility of these things in humans. I don't think there is any evidence except experience that is worth mentioning - You would have to see it happen/have the ability yourself.

Kylie said:

How about if someone is utterly convinced they are immune to poison? If they are so convinced, will they be able to drink poison and remain unharmed?

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That is up to the person, and that would be a healing ability/factor, not necessarily psionic.

Unless... you are a psionic that can perform psychic surgery - and remove the poison out of your system without it interacting with the cells.

I believe anything is possible with some humans. The reality is that many people are powerful, but most will never allow for the possibility of anything - stunting their abilities. Our logic and reason handicaps us.

Kaon said:

Let's say I have an extremely strong positive opinion about the possibility of these things in humans. I don't think there is any evidence except experience that is worth mentioning - You would have to see it happen/have the ability yourself.

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If people actually had telepathic and/or telekinetic powers, then it should be easy to prove those powers in properly controlled and repeatable experiments. We wouldn't have to rely on anecdotal evidence, where there are alternate explanations such as suggestibility, misinterpretation of experience, etc.

AnotherAtheist said:

If people actually had telepathic and/or telekinetic powers, then it should be easy to prove those powers in properly controlled and repeatable experiments. We wouldn't have to rely on anecdotal evidence, where alternate explanatitons such as suggestibility, misinterpretation of experience, etc. are alternate explanations.

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You assume the exhibition of said abilities does not require work on the individual with the ability. If I had an ability, I would never tell anyone or ever try to prove it because it isnt worth the work to convince the parties 1) the possibility exists, 2) that it is possible, and 3) it is a reality. If I get a migrane every time i exhibit my ability (no matter to what degree), what is the limit of satisfaction for evidence?

Moreover, you assume anyone with abilities would waste their time vindicating their abilities to an incredulous lot of people in general - while at the same time staying off of the radar of respective military and private entities.

See, people with these abilities may already have enough problems; the least of their worries is an exhibition. As said, before a layperson would ever believe/know about a "powered" person, s/he would be know by a military/private entity first - which mean you would likely be at see any evidence of a powered person. Many hide in plain sight, often testing the social waters to determine if the opportunity exists to reveal.

But, since the above average learned person has serious limits on belief (due to logic and reason), there is no incentive to reveal "abilities" to the public. History shows it doesn't go well.

Kaon said:

You assume the exhibition of said abilities does not require work on the individual with the ability. If I had an ability, I would never tell anyone or ever try to prove it because it isnt worth the work to convince the parties 1) the possibility exists, 2) that it is possible, and 3) it is a reality. If I get a migrane every time i exhibit my ability (no matter to what degree), what is the limit of satisfaction for evidence?

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Statistics is a well developed science. A result which shows telepathy (not random guessing) at 95% confidence would be an interesting result. A number of independent repetitions of those experiments would continue to add even more weight to the claim. And so on.

Moreover, you assume anyone with abilities would waste their time vindicating their abilities to an incredulous lot of people in general - while at the same time staying off of the radar of respective military and private entities.

See, people with these abilities may already have enough problems; the least of their worries is an exhibition. As said, before a layperson would ever believe/know about a "powered" person, s/he would be know by a military/private entity first - which mean you would likely be at see any evidence of a powered person. Many hide in plain sight, often testing the social waters to determine if the opportunity exists to reveal.

But, since the above average learned person has serious limits on belief (due to logic and reason), there is no incentive to reveal "abilities" to the public. History shows it doesn't go well.

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So, either these people don't exist, or absolutely everyone - every single person - with these powers has made the decision to hide their ability, rather than take the fame and riches that would result from being able to demonstrate them? Is that what you are saying?

We know that people who believe they have those powers do come forward to be tested, and they do make public claims to have those powers.

Hence, I think your excuse as to why nobody with actual powers has had themselves properly tested is just that - an excuse.

AnotherAtheist said:

Statistics is a well developed science. A result which shows telepathy (not random guessing) at 95% confidence would be an interesting result. A number of independent repetitions of those experiments would continue to add even more weight to the claim. And so on.

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You are assuming the studies would know what to look for - in all qualities. It would require a psionic to do a proper study since an academic would restrict possibilities. There are test are done by militaries and private entities if the suspect psionic ability. The public doesn't wouldn't know what to do with someone with abilities; you see how humans treats people of different religion.

So, either these people don't exist, or absolutely everyone - every single person - with these powers has made the decision to hide their ability, rather than take the fame and riches that would result from being able to demonstrate them? Is that what you are saying?

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No.

We know that people who believe they have those powers do come forward to be tested, and they do make public claims to have those powers.

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Are they actually powered in the eye of the public, and according to the tests? Exactly.

Hence, I think your excuse as to why nobody with actual powers has had themselves properly tested is just that - an excuse.

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Ok. I am not trying to convince you, though, or anyone. My posts were responses to specific questions regarding the quality of my former post(s). As I said, I don't believe many laypersons have the capacity to entertain telekinesis, so I wouldn't argue the possibility of telekinesis. You are free to consider what I have said 100% cow manure, a paradox of dualities, a philosophical ineptitude, or anything tangential and/or local to those things.

Kaon said:

As far as I know, I am not psionic in any way (telekinetic , hydrokinetic, pyrokinetic, telepathic...) I am empathetic, but I think most people have the capacity to be empaths, and I don't respond "physically" other people's emotions/feelings (e.g. feeling pain because someone has a torn ACL near me.)

Let's say I have an extremely strong positive opinion about the possibility of these things in humans. I don't think there is any evidence except experience that is worth mentioning - You would have to see it happen/have the ability yourself.

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So you don't actually have anything, just a gut feeling? That's not much to base a conclusion on.

Kaon said:

That is up to the person, and that would be a healing ability/factor, not necessarily psionic.

Unless... you are a psionic that can perform psychic surgery - and remove the poison out of your system without it interacting with the cells.

I believe anything is possible with some humans. The reality is that many people are powerful, but most will never allow for the possibility of anything - stunting their abilities. Our logic and reason handicaps us.

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Do you have anything more than gut feeling to base this assumption on?

Kaon said:

You are assuming the studies would know what to look for - in all qualities. It would require a psionic to do a proper study since an academic would restrict possibilities. There are test are done by militaries and private entities if the suspect psionic ability. The public doesn't wouldn't know what to do with someone with abilities; you see how humans treats people of different religion.

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Given the normal definitions of telepathy and telekinesis, it will be easy to first evaluate the claims made by the person, and design an experiment to test that. I never said that general members of the public would design the test - that would be done by trained and skilled scientists.

Unless people claim to have a form of telepathy or telekinesis that is completely unfalsifable then the claim can be investigated, tests designed, and the claim tested. If people claim to have an unfalsifiable, and therefore undetectable, power, then I don't think anyone would need to take any notice of that.

No.

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You say no with no explanation, but I can't see any reading of your post that I quoted that does not match a claim that no-one with these powers would want to be tested, ever. Otherwise, it would happen. And, as I said many people do believe they have those powers, try to prove it, and the results are negative.

Are they actually powered in the eye of the public, and according to the tests? Exactly.

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I don't know what this means. Can you please paraphrase this statement.

Ok. I am not trying to convince you, though, or anyone. My posts were responses to specific questions regarding the quality of my former post(s). As I said, I don't believe many laypersons have the capacity to entertain telekinesis, so I wouldn't argue the possibility of telekinesis. You are free to consider what I have said 100% cow manure, a paradox of dualities, a philosophical ineptitude, or anything tangential and/or local to those things.

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I'm just saying that I believe your statement is wrong. I don't believe that's an unreasonable thing to say in a discussion thread.

Kylie said:

Do you have anything more than gut feeling to base this assumption on?

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Yes.

AnotherAtheist said:

I'm just saying that I believe your statement is wrong. I don't believe that's an unreasonable thing to say in a discussion thread.

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It isn't, which is why I won't bother offering "evidence" to argue something someone cannot believe. I am not interested in changing a mind, or debating the reality since that is also futility.


I'm comfortable with the evidence I have, however.

Kylie said:

So you don't actually have anything, just a gut feeling?

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Yes.

Kaon said:

Yes.

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Do you have anything testable?

And would you share what you've got?

Kaon said:

Yes.

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So now you say you don't have anything more than a gut feeling?

Kylie said:

Do you have anything testable?

And would you share what you've got?

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Yes.

No, respectively.

(I misread your earlier post; I meant "no".)