Does ‘willful sinning’ threaten my salvation?

Bible Highlighter said:

The context is Israel. This is not going to happen until the Millennium for Israel.

Click to expand...

Are you saying that we are not indwelled by the Holy Spirit in the New covenant as promised?

To all:

The problem with Bruce's theology (i.e. the guy in the video within the OP) is that a person who truly comes to Christ cannot ever backslide without doubting God's grace was genuine for his life to begin with. This theology is dangerous. Doubting God's grace is very serious and can lead to a loss of hope and salvation in Christ. The enemy wants some people to doubt that God's grace can forgive us of our sins when we come to Him. So if a believer falls into sin, they may not think God's grace was never real to begin with in the beginning and it is not good enough to help them again. If somebody believes his nonsense, and this happens to them, all I can say is great job Bruce. You just destroyed faith in Jesus Christ for a person. They may cry out to God and feel that their faith in Christ was never real and or that they cannot get a real faith because there is no fruit at a later point in their life and or they lost that special feeling with God one day. God's grace is sufficient to save, but it is also not a license for immorality.

Bruce then back peddles on the holiness issue and says there is nobody that does not sin. While I am not going to advocate for Sinless Perfection here, I will say that we do have to overcome grievous sin at some point in this life or as a part of our general daily walk with the Lord. If we are lying, lusting, hating, etc. every day, and we are not confessing and forsaking such sins, I do not believe such a believer is saved. In my experience, Christians who speak like Bruce have a his a bar of holiness that is a lot lower than the one I understand according to the Bible. While I do not know what his bar of righteous living is, I can say that I would run in the other direction far away from him to be on the safe side because the Bible does not teach OSAS or a serious sin and still be saved type belief.

Carl Emerson said:

Are you saying that we are not indwelled by the Holy Spirit in the New covenant as promised?

Click to expand...

I didn't say that. I am saying that the passage you quoted relates to israel and that particular promise is going to be fulfilled more specifically for them in the Millennium.

Carl Emerson said:

You ignored my point...

I repeat.

As we allow His righteousness through obedience to work through us there is eternal reward. He determines this at judgement. Gold and precious stones or hay wood and stubble. This judgement would be meaningless if believers were all sinless and perfect.

Please explain why this judgement is needed if all true believers are sinless and perfect, never do anything wrong, cant ever be incorrect about anything, always have perfect theology, are in fact infallible ???

Click to expand...

The judgement will determine who was sinless and perfect, as their names will be written in the book of life.
Sheep and goats...the Word will determine who is which.

Carl Emerson said:

Yes if one is saved ones life is changed.

But Phil was promoting sinless perfection which it seems you and I reject.

Click to expand...

If a man is still committing sin, where is the change you refer to?

To all:

Bruce (the man in the video from the OP) confuses the issue. He says that sin is something we should be alarmed about. Why? If you are truly Once Saved Always Saved then no amount of sin can separate you from God. But seeing that is not the case, and salvation is conditional based on a whole ton of verses, we need to endure to the end to be saved. We need to put away sin. He agrees we need to be fruitful and to not sin. This to him shows genuine saving faith. I agree. But we do not agree on the bar of holiness because he most likely does not believe we can overcome certain grievous sins (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) that can condemn us. He does not believe we have to perfectly confess and forsake grievous sin. Problem with this is that those who did wonderful works in Christ's name were told to depart from Christ because they worked iniquity in Matthew 7:23. Meaning, they justified some amount of sin that the Bible condemns. No doubt OSAS can lead a person to treat God's grace as a license to sin on some level. They may strive to live holy, but they really do not have to do that perfectly because they got a belief alone on Jesus. But even the demons believe and tremble.

So what is the solution?
We need a healthy balance of both God's grace and Sanctification.
It's not all one or the other. The man in the video from the OP (Bruce) attempts to suggest that we will just automatically fall into Sanctification if we are saved by God's grace. If this was the case, then there would be no warnings to believers about sin, and Paul would have never said to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

We need both God's grace, and Sanctification for salvation.
Both God's grace, and Sanctification are CONDITIONAL.
Nowhere does the Bible teach that God forces us to believe or forces us to live holy. If God forced us to believe, and forced us to live holy, then humanity would not be in the sinful mess that it is in now.

Carl Emerson said:

Here is a pivotal exchange between Phil and I...
==========================
Me...
Any righteousness we have is the imputed righteousness of Jesus - period.
Phil
Amen to that.
But that imputation is worthless in a man who is still unrighteous.
===========================
Now that last statement in red Phil makes me think that Phil does not understand what imputed righteousness is and why it is needed.

Click to expand...

Imputed...given.
If we have been given the righteousness of God, how can we still be unrighteous?

Is this not the heart of the good news that if we confess our sins He is righteous and just to forgive our sins and cleans us from all unrighteousness.
While we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Click to expand...

Doesn't returning to those, or any sin, indicate a false love for God?
And that the righteousness of God is NOT present?

Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.

Click to expand...

"...The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
By including the end of James 5:16 you should have been able to see that it takes a righteous man for the healing; indicating the unrighteousness in the one needing the healing for his sin.
No imputation will overrule reality.
Had the sick man ever been imputed with the righteousness of God...what happened to it?

Phil W said:

Imputed...given.
If we have been given the righteousness of God, how can we still be unrighteous?

Click to expand...

Imputed = reckoned, and indeed that's the point. If God looks at us and sees Christ's righteousness, how indeed can we still be *seen* as unrighteous by God?

Doesn't returning to those, or any sin, indicate a false love for God?
And that the righteousness of God is NOT present?

Click to expand...

I think you're confusing justification with sanctification. We are justified at the point of faith. Christ's righteousness is imputed to us; we are reckoned righteous. To paraphrase Sproul, our bank account is immediately infinitely full. That does not mean that righteousness is *infused* to us (the Roman Catholic view) or that we are actually *made* righteous. Our life in Christ is an ongoing process of sanctification whereby we are progressively brought into conformity with the perfection of Christ, preparing us for our eventual glorification in Him. This process is different for each of us, and it is quite often not a linear upward trajectory. Indeed, sometimes putting to death the things of the flesh we are brought into direct and frightening confrontation with them.

Our justification, and thus our salvation, is first and foremost grounded in the alien righteousness of Christ reckoned to our account by faith. To say that our sin can somehow objectively undo that is to declare His righteousness insufficient in itself to give us right standing before God, and to make a lie of the declaration that He alone is the justifier of those who believe.

frumanchu said:

Imputed = reckoned, and indeed that's the point. If God looks at us and sees Christ's righteousness, how indeed can we still be *seen* as unrighteous by God?

Click to expand...

God is not going to ignore reality in the life of a man.
He doesn't reckon a man righteous in spite of his unrighteousness.
Righteousness is a gift for the formerly unrighteous, dead in sin, walking in the flesh instead of in the Spirit, idolatrous, sinner.
But we can turn from sin now, as Gentiles have also been given the gift of repentance.
We can now be really righteous, thanks to God.
He gave us thus "power".

I think you're confusing justification with sanctification. We are justified at the point of faith. Christ's righteousness is imputed to us; we are reckoned righteous. To paraphrase Sproul, our bank account is immediately infinitely full. That does not mean that righteousness is *infused* to us (the Roman Catholic view) or that we are actually *made* righteous. Our life in Christ is an ongoing process of sanctification whereby we are progressively brought into conformity with the perfection of Christ, preparing us for our eventual glorification in Him. This process is different for each of us, and it is quite often not a linear upward trajectory. Indeed, sometimes putting to death the things of the flesh we are brought into direct and frightening confrontation with them.

Click to expand...

I hope you can see that what you cite is a defense of ongoing sin.

Our justification, and thus our salvation, is first and foremost grounded in the alien righteousness of Christ reckoned to our account by faith. To say that our sin can somehow objectively undo that is to declare His righteousness insufficient in itself to give us right standing before God, and to make a lie of the declaration that He alone is the justifier of those who believe.

Click to expand...

Sin doesn't "undo it", it denies it ever happened.
As written in Rom 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Those committing sin are still "alive".
The cure for that is crucifixion with Christ. (Rom 6:3-6)

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Bible Highlighter

I would refer you to NT Greek Scholar DA Carson and his work on the Gospel of John for the correct exegesis contextually and grammatically of this text, along with His work on the NT use of OT passages as the OT is quoted in this passage.

James White does a really good contextual exegesis in his book drawn by the Father. A bit lighter then the work the DA Carson has done... but never the less you will find it help full.

IN Him,


Bill

Click to expand...

Both DA Carson and James White are Calvinists. No offense, but I consider Calvinism to be an outlandish concept compared to GOD that we see described in the Bible. God told Jonah to preach to the Ninevites that their city was going be overthrown. That did not happen. The Ninevites repented and changed the scenario. Of course the change of scenario was all a part of God's plan, but it was a conditional one. God did not force the Ninevites to repent. If such was the case, then the city being overthrown in 40 days would have been an idle threat or a misleading statement. Also, Calvinism does not line up with any basic concept of Morality. Calvinism makes God out to be cold hearted. In my view: Calvinism is kind of like a master who kicks his dog across the room every day because it poops on his white carpets (with the master knowing that the dog has an uncontrollable pooping problem because it is sick). So things like the Judgment would not make any sense in the world of Calvinism. Calvinism is a pretty ridiculous concept to try and cram into the Bible - IMO. For me: It's about as crazy as believing in a flat Earth or as crazy as wearing tin foil hats to try and communicate with aliens. But I digress. People believe what they do for their own reasons sometimes. Again, please do not take any offense; Especially if you are a Calvinist or anything. I am just sharing with you how I honestly feel about such a belief.

Calvinists need to read the next verse after John 6:44. They need to read the end of Romans 9, and read all of Romans 10 through Romans 11 to get the context of what Romans 9 is saying. They should probably read Romans 4, as well. The context is being saved by the election of God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not in the way of salvation that the Jews think is the way. God elects based on His foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:1-2). God knew how Esau was going to turn out before he was born. God elected Israel to be his nation, but Israel is now wondering why did God make them the elect nation of God if they failed? God has a plan for Israel. God can see the bigger picture. Salvation is in the Messiah Jesus Christ. Israel may not have seen that during the time of Christ, but they will see that He is the Messiah in the End Times. God chose wisely Israel as his chosen nation. They will come around in time. But for now, Israel wants to be saved on their own effort without God. But it is not he that runs alone, but it is God who calls and changes us (When we draw near to His grace by His Son Jesus Christ). God changes our hearts if we answer His call.

Anyways, Calvinists need to just read these portions of Scripture as if they are not talking about Calvinism. Really, a misunderstanding on Romans 9, and John 6:44 are really the only major places that Calvinists got to defend their Calvinism. So many verses on free will in our decision regarding God have to go ignored or changed in order to make their Calvinism work, too. So it is really an odd belief in my opinion. What is a person's real motivation behind believing Calvinism? I believe there is a reason and it is not because the Bible teaches it.

Phil W said:

God is not going to ignore reality in the life of a man.

Click to expand...

On the contrary...that's exactly the good news of the Gospel. We are sinful beings, engaged in cosmic treason against a holy God. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. We are reconciled to Him in faith. Justified. Period. We are declared righteous in Him. Insofar as our justification, He is indeed ignoring the reality of our sin just as those who put the blood on the doorpost were passed over.

He doesn't reckon a man righteous in spite of his unrighteousness.

Click to expand...

Friend, to truly believe this is to throw away the Gospel and exchange it for the Law.

Righteousness is a gift for the formerly unrighteous, dead in sin, walking in the flesh instead of in the Spirit, idolatrous, sinner.
But we can turn from sin now, as Gentiles have also been given the gift of repentance.
We can now be really righteous, thanks to God.
He gave us thus "power".

Click to expand...

And indeed we do...but not perfectly and not to earn salvation. What a dreadful thing to believe that if we dare to miss repenting of even the slightest sin before dying we find ourselves unrighteous and thus perish. Do you truly think at this stage in your walk with Christ you have a true and full understanding of every sin that you commit? If you are right in your understanding than I truly hope so for your sake lest you fail to repent of them and find your righteousness lacking before His perfect and holy judgment!

I hope you can see that what you cite is a defense of ongoing sin.

Click to expand...

Nonsense. To affirm the Scriptural truth that we are justified based solely on the righteousness of Christ is by no means a license for sin. Again, you are confusing justification with sanctification.

Sin doesn't "undo it", it denies it ever happened.
As written in Rom 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Those committing sin are still "alive".
The cure for that is crucifixion with Christ. (Rom 6:3-6)

Click to expand...

What a wretched state to be in, constantly oscillating between salvation and damnation because we cannot seem to attain perfect righteousness. Friend, we have died to the law. Christ accomplished on our behalf what we COULD NOT ACCOMPLISH. Why do you continue to seek after self-justification when Christ has freed you from the curse of the law?

If you are relying upon your own keeping of the law, your own righteousness, to save you...then you are not trusting in Christ for your salvation. It's as simple as that.

Bible Highlighter said:

Both DA Carson and James White are Calvinists. No offense, but I consider Calvinism to be an outlandish concept compared to GOD that we see described in the Bible. God told Jonah to preach to the Ninevites that their city was going be overthrown. That did not happen. The Ninevites repented and changed the scenario. Of course the change of scenario was all a part of God's plan, but it was a conditional one. God did not force the Ninevites to repent. If such was the case, then the city being overthrown in 40 days would have been an idle threat or a misleading statement. Also, Calvinism does not line up with any basic concept of Morality. Calvinism makes God out to be cold hearted. In my view: Calvinism is kind of like a master who kicks his dog across the room every day because it poops on his white carpets (with the master knowing that the dog has an uncontrollable pooping problem because it is sick). So things like the Judgment would not make any sense in the world of Calvinism. Calvinism is a pretty ridiculous concept to try and cram into the Bible - IMO. For me: It's about as crazy as believing in a flat Earth or as crazy as wearing tin foil hats to try and communicate with aliens. But I digress. People believe what they do for their own reasons sometimes. Again, please do not take any offense; Especially if you are a Calvinist or anything. I am just sharing with you how I honestly feel about such a belief. Calvinists need to read the next verse after John 6:44, and they need to read the end of Romans 9, and Romans 10 through Romans 11 to get the context of Romans 9 in what it is saying. They should probably read Romans 4, as well. The context is being saved by the election of God's grace through Jesus Christ and not in the way of salvation that the Jews think is the way.

They need to just read these portions of Scripture as if they are not talking about Calvinism. Really, a misunderstanding on Romans 9, and John 6:44 are really the only major places that Calvinists got to defend their Calvinism. So many verses on free will in our decision regarding God have to go ignored or changed in order to make their Calvinism work, too. So it is really an odd belief in my opinion. What is a person's real motivation behind believing Calvinism? I believe there is a reason and it is not because the Bible teaches it.

Click to expand...

So....rather than actually address the scholarship presented by these men you are simply labelling them and dismissing them? I think there's a term for that...

frumanchu said:

So....rather than actually address the scholarship presented by these men you are simply labelling them and dismissing them? I think there's a term for that...

Click to expand...

I am not really into Greek studies for many reasons biblically. I believe the scholars of our day are the scribes that Jesus warned us against. No offense, but I see Calvinism as ridiculous kind of like Flat Earth believers. In other words, would you read Bible commentaries by Flat Earthers or by those who wear tin foil hats to contact aliens?

Besides, these two men are biased to Perseverance of the Saints from the works of John Calvin, and the canons of Dort. So they read that into Scripture. Why would I trust them? I don't. I also know OSAS is also highly unbiblical for about 10 years now, as well. Total non-sense. There are many conditional statements made in regards to our salvation.

To all:

I am not sure how a person can read the Bible and ignore all the verses that refute the unbiblical teaching of Eternal Security. For when a person reads their Bible they will see a refutation of Eternal Security in the majority of the New Testament (and in some cases, depending on the book, they will see a refutation of Eternal Security on almost every page). Therefore, I beg everyone here (who believes in Eternal Security and who has an open heart to receive the seed of God's Word into their heart) to re-examine what they believe and look at the following verses by way of prayer. For if I am wrong, I have nothing to lose (because I do not believe in Works Salvationism; I believe in Relationship-ism with God). But if the Eternal Security Proponent is wrong, they have everything to lose. Anyways, here is a...


Long List of Verses Refuting Eternal Security or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved):

• Matthew 7:21-23 - Jesus only “knows” those who do Father God’s will; all others are practicing lawlessness.

• Matthew 10:33 - Whoever denies Jesus before men He will also deny before His Father in heaven.

• Matthew 12:31-32 - Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This means verbally cursing or speaking bad about the Holy Spirit.

• Matthew 13:18-23 - 2 people types (no root, unfruitful) come to eternal life, and then return to the lost state.

• Matthew 18:21-35, Mark 11:25-26 - Forgive men’s sins against you, or God won’t forgive your sins against Him.

• Matthew 25:44-46 - Those who do not help even one needy soul will go into everlasting punishment.

• Mark 8:35-36 - Whoever desires to save his (old) life, or gain the whole world, will lose his soul.

• Mark 9:43-48 - Get rid of whatever causes you to sin; it will cause you to be cast into hell fire.

• Mark 13:13 - But he who endures with his faith to the end (of his life) shall be saved eternally (Also see Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 4:16, Hebrews 10:35-39, Revelation 2:10)

• Luke 9:23-25 - Whoever does not deny himself for Jesus’ sake will be destroyed (eternal death).

• Luke 14:26-33 - Jesus warns prospective believers how difficult and costly it is to be His disciple… will they have enough to finish this life of placing Him above all else, bearing their crosses, etc.?

• Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus taught that the man who was more justified was the one who humbled himself and cried out to God for mercy before God vs. the man who did not do so.

• John 3:19, 20 - An important point about "The Condemnation" is that those who loved darkness hate the Light because they loved the pleasure of their own evil deeds, unless of course their deeds should be reproved (that is).

• John 12:25 - He who loves his life in this world will lose it (eternal life) later.

• John 15:1-6 - Christians who do not bear fruit (are not abiding in Jesus) are thrown into the fire.

• John 17:3 - Eternal life is actually “knowing” Father God and Jesus Christ. Do you really know them?

• Romans 1:29-32 - Anyone practicing such sins is deserving of death due to God’s wrath on unrighteousness.

• Romans 2:5-11 - Wrath is coming to those who are unrighteously self-seeking and do not obey the truth.

• Rom 6:15-23 - Be a slave of God and to righteousness for holiness, resulting in holiness and eternal life.

• Romans 8:1-8 - Anyone who is carnally-minded (is living according to the flesh) will die spiritually.

• Romans 8:12-13 - We are not debtors to the flesh; if we live according to the flesh, we will die.

• Romans 11:20-22 - Fear unbelief, that if you do not continue to have faith, you will be cut off like the OT Jews.

• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Anyone practicing such sins is unrighteous, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• 1 Corinthians 15:2 - You are saved, if you hold fast to that word (the gospel) … unless you believed in vain.

• 2 Corinthians 7:10 - Godly sorrow over sin leads Christians to repent, which leads to salvation.

• 2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine and test yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.

• Galatians 5:1-4 - Christians are warned: those who later have attempted to be justified by the Law of Moses (or Law Alone-ism), … have been estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace.

• Galatians 5:19-21 - Anyone practicing such sins (the works of the flesh) will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• Galatians 5:24 - Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

• Galatians 6:7-8 - Don't be deceived: sowing to the flesh reaps corruption, sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.

• Ephesians 5:3-6 - Believers practicing such sins will not inherit God’s kingdom, but will incur the wrath of God.

• Ephesians 5:25-27 - Jesus gave Himself for a glorious Church which will be sanctified, holy, without blemish.

• Philippians 2:12-16 - Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, holding fast the word of life …
  
  
• … so that: (1) you may become blameless, and (2) Paul did not labor in vain concerning you.

• Philippians 3:7-14 - Paul presses on to attaining the goal of gaining Christ, knowing Him, and being found in Him.

• Colossians 1:21-29 - Jesus’ desires (and Paul labors to warn and teach) to present “holy and blameless” and “perfect in Christ Jesus” those who continue in faith, not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

• Colossians 3:5-6 - Believers practicing such sins beware: the wrath of God will come upon sons of disobedience.

• 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith.

• 1 Timothy 5:11-15 - Some younger widows are condemned; they cast off their first faith and turned after Satan.

• 1 Timothy 6:3-4 - Paul says that if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Christ is proud knowing nothing.

• 1 Timothy 6:9-14 - Greed and love of money drowns men in destruction and perdition; Instead, pursue godliness and lay hold on eternal life (and keep this command without blame).

• 1 Timothy 6:17-19 - Commands for the rich (yes, Christians) to follow, so they may lay hold on eternal life.

• Titus 1:1-3 - Faith and knowledge of the truth lead to godliness, in the hope of eternal life.

• Hebrews 2:1-4 - Warning about drifting away: how shall we escape, if we drift and neglect so great a salvation?

• Hebrews 3:6 - We belong to Christ, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

• Hebrews 3:12-15 - Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, for we are only partakers of Christ if we hold steadfast to the end.

• Hebrews 3:17-19 - The OT Jews who sinned (did not obey) could not enter into God’s rest (the Promised Land).

• Hebrews 4:1 - Let us fear lest any of us come short of entering God’s rest (God’s promise of salvation).

• Hebrews 4:11 - Be diligent to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.

• Hebrews 6:4-8 - Those enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.

• Hebrews 10:26-27 - If we sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, expect God’s fiery judgment.

• Hebrews 10:29-31 - The Lord will judge His people. “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord.

• Hebrews 10:35-39 - Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.

• Hebrews 12:14-15 - Pursue holiness (without which no one will see the Lord) lest anyone falls short of God’s grace.

• Hebrews 12:15-17 - Many believers become defiled, and finding no place for repentance, are rejected.

• James 1:12-16 - Love the Lord, endure temptation to sin; do not be deceived, sin results in spiritual death.

• 1 Peter 1:8-9 - Believing, you will receive the end of your (enduring) faith—the salvation of your souls.

• 2 Peter 1:10-11 - Be diligent to make your call & election sure, so you won’t stumble, but gain the kingdom.

• 2 Peter 2:1, 14 - The false prophets (i.e. believers) are those who have eyes full of adultery and cannot cease from sin.

• 2 Peter 2:20-22 - If Christians are overcome by worldly sins, they are worse off than they were before knowing the way of righteousness, they turned from the holy commandment delivered to them.

• 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, God will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

• 1 John 2:3-5 - We are sure that we “know” God and are “in” Him, if we keep His commandments.

• 1 John 2:24-25 - If God’s word does not abide in us, the Father and the Son will not abide in us, nor we in Them, and we will not receive the promised eternal life.

• 1 John 3:15 - If you hate your brother, you’re like a murderer who has no eternal life abiding in him.

• Jude 1:4 NIV - There are those false believers who turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality

• Jude 1:20-21 - 3 things for Christians to do, while looking for God’s mercy unto eternal life.

• Revelation 2:10 - Be faithful until death and Jesus will give you the crown of (eternal) life (Also see Mark 13:13 above).

• Revelation 2:11 - He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death (eternal death).

• Revelation 3:5 - He who overcomes will not have his name blotted out from the Book of Life.

• Revelation 14:9-11 - Those that worship the Beast and take his mark drink of the wine of the Wrath of God and will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.

• Revelation 21:8 - Anyone practicing such sins will go into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

• Revelation 21:27 - Anyone practicing such sins is not in the Book of Life, and will not enter the New Jerusalem.

• Revelation 22:14 - Anyone who does not do God’s commandments does not have the right to the tree of life.

• Revelation 22:15 - Anyone practicing such sins will be outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.

• Revelation 22:18 - If any man takes away from the prophecy of the book (i.e. the Scriptures), God will take away their name out of the Book of Life.
  

Bible Highlighter said:

I am not really into Greek studies for many reasons biblically.

Click to expand...

You may have reasons...but I assure you they aren't biblical given the fact a significant portion of the New Testament was originally written in Koine Greek. Words mean things, friend

I believe the scholars of our day are the scribes that Jesus warned us against.

Click to expand...

Hmm. So what scholars meet your expectations? Because early church scholars were pretty into Greek studies

No offense, but I see Calvinism as ridiculous kind of like Flat Earth believers. In other words, would you read Bible commentaries by Flat Earthers or by those who wear tin foil hats to contact aliens?

Click to expand...

Well, when I have no guidelines except what just seems subjectively right to me, I guess all bets are off, eh?

Besides, these two men are biased to Perseverance of the Saints from the works of John Calvin, and the canons of Dort. So they read that into Scripture. Why would I trust them? I don't. I also know OSAS is also highly unbiblical for about 10 years now, as well. Total non-sense. There are many conditional statements made in regards to our salvation.

Click to expand...

So in other words any study of the original language the New Testament was written in that doesn't comport with your preconceived doctrine is not worth considering. Sounds like a solid hermaneutical and exegetical approach.

frumanchu said:

On the contrary...that's exactly the good news of the Gospel. We are sinful beings, engaged in cosmic treason against a holy God. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. We are reconciled to Him in faith. Justified. Period. We are declared righteous in Him. Insofar as our justification, He is indeed ignoring the reality of our sin just as those who put the blood on the doorpost were passed over.

Click to expand...

Mostly true, but you have omitted rebirth.
Those reborn of Godly seed cannot commit sin.
What was not true is that "God ignores the reality of our sin".
While we were sinners when Jesus died for us, there is no reason to remain on the path of idolatry.

Friend, to truly believe this is to throw away the Gospel and exchange it for the Law.

Click to expand...

What you propose is sin without Law.
How about righteousness without Law instead?

And indeed we do...but not perfectly and not to earn salvation. What a dreadful thing to believe that if we dare to miss repenting of even the slightest sin before dying we find ourselves unrighteous and thus perish. Do you truly think at this stage in your walk with Christ you have a true and full understanding of every sin that you commit? If you are right in your understanding than I truly hope so for your sake lest you fail to repent of them and find your righteousness lacking before His perfect and holy judgment!

Click to expand...

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."
You propose a life without the fear of the Lord.
How dreadful is that...going to be?
As for "this stage of our walk"...this stage is as reborn sons of the Father, recipients of the gift of the Holy Ghost, dead to sin; set apart and atoned for, consecrated men of God growing in grace and knowledge.

Nonsense. To affirm the Scriptural truth that we are justified based solely on the righteousness of Christ is by no means a license for sin. Again, you are confusing justification with sanctification.

Click to expand...

As they happen at the same time and in the same manner, confusing them is just semantics.
The blood of Christ provides both.

What a wretched state to be in, constantly oscillating between salvation and damnation because we cannot seem to attain perfect righteousness.

Click to expand...

That would indeed be a wretched state to be in.
But thanks be to God we can have confidence in what Jesus died and rose again to accomplish.
New lives walked in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

Friend, we have died to the law. Christ accomplished on our behalf what we COULD NOT ACCOMPLISH. Why do you continue to seek after self-justification when Christ has freed you from the curse of the law?

Click to expand...

It seems to me that it is the sinners who still live under the Law, as it is written..."For by the Law is the knowledge of sin".

If you are relying upon your own keeping of the law, your own righteousness, to save you...then you are not trusting in Christ for your salvation. It's as simple as that.

Click to expand...

Not "mine" at all.
Like Paul in Gal 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
How can a dead man satisfy dead lusts?
Would Christ living in me tolerate sin?
NO!

Are you relying on God to ignore the sinful idolatry in the so-called believers?

frumanchu said:

You may have reasons...but I assure you they aren't biblical given the fact a significant portion of the New Testament was originally written in Koine Greek. Words mean things, friend

Click to expand...

Problem is that most people today have not repented hearing Kione Greek. People are just guessing at best as to what Kione Greek means and they do not have a 100% certainty on this language because they did not grow up and speak and write such a language as a part of their culture and life. It is a dead language and guessing based on what our English translation says is the best course of getting close to what the Greek says because our New Testament portion of our bible we have today was translated from Kione Greek. In fact, every spiritual matter in the Bible should be defended by the use of the Bible, and the Scriptures do not prophetically speak of how we need to go back to the older and more purer language in order to understand God's Word better. On the contrary, God's Word said it would be preserved for all generations (See: Psalms 12:6-7). The Lord our God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. God speaks to us today by the world language (i.e. English) via by the Holy Bible.

God preserves His Words with a few men that He feels are chosen for such a task. Obviously not everyone just naturally is given the Spirit to preserve His holy words perfectly and without error. There are those who try to make such efforts on their own power without God. Of course their efforts are flawed.

You said:

Hmm. So what scholars meet your expectations? Because early church scholars were pretty into Greek studies Well, when I have no guidelines except what just seems subjectively right to me, I guess all bets are off, eh?

Click to expand...

God is my guide in understanding His Word, and by comparing Scripture with Scripture. I did not learn what I know ultimately from men but by the Spirit.

"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." (1 Corinthians 2:13).

You said:

So in other words any study of the original language the New Testament was written in that doesn't comport with your preconceived doctrine is not worth considering. Sounds like a solid hermaneutical and exegetical approach.

Click to expand...

James 2:5 says that God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith. I guess that rules out the rich and or fat cat scholar. Oh, but wait. Says something different in the Greek, right? I just read and believe my Bible in the English. I repented hearing the English. No fancy tricks or gimmicks or code keys. I just believe what God's Word says plainly, and I ask God to help understand His Word (When it is difficult in certain places).

Phil W said:

Mostly true, but you have omitted rebirth.
Those reborn of Godly seed cannot commit sin.

Click to expand...

Like the Pharisees, you would go to great lengths to make a convert and then leave them twice the child of hell. Simul justus et peccator. We are justified by faith, we are sanctified in the Spirit but it is an ongoing process that does not meet its perfection until our glorification in Heaven. To make this claim that the regenerate cannot sin is to completely ignore the reality of the justification/sanctification different.

What you propose is sin without Law.
How about righteousness without Law instead?

Click to expand...

Nope. What I propose is salvation apart from the Law (that is, our keeping of it). We are justified on the basis of Christ's righteousness. Period. He fulfilled the Law on our behalf because WE CANNOT DO IT.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."
You propose a life without the fear of the Lord.
How dreadful is that...going to be?

Click to expand...

Simply not true. I propose what the Gospel assures us of: forgiveness by His death and justification by His righteousness. My works are not to earn or secure my salvation; they are the good and perfect service to Him whose grace was poured out upon me. I pursue righteousness out of love for Him, not out of fear of Him. I truly pity those who pursue it because of the latter, for they know not the richness of the Gospel of Christ.

As for "this stage of our walk"...this stage is as reborn sons of the Father, recipients of the gift of the Holy Ghost, dead to sin; set apart and atoned for, consecrated men of God growing in grace and knowledge.

Click to expand...

And perfectly righteous? One would deceive himself to think so, and if he relied upon it for his salvation he would trample the Gospel underfoot.

As they happen at the same time and in the same manner, confusing them is just semantics.
The blood of Christ provides both.

Click to expand...

Nope. Completely wrong and dangerously unbiblical.

That would indeed be a wretched state to be in.
But thanks be to God we can have confidence in what Jesus died and rose again to accomplish.
New lives walked in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

Click to expand...

But do it PERFECTLY RIGHTEOUSLY OR ELSE!!!

That's not good news. That's the deadly legalism of the Pharisees.


It seems to me that it is the sinners who still live under the Law, as it is written..."For by the Law is the knowledge of sin".

How can a dead man satisfy dead lusts?
Would Christ living in me tolerate sin?
NO!

Are you relying on God to ignore the sinful idolatry in the so-called believers?

Click to expand...

What a pity that you should bind men to believe that they must be perfectly righteous to lay hold of their salvation. "SIN NOT lest you show your faith to be less than acceptable!"

That is not the Gospel of Christ. We are justified by faith, reckoned righteous by the imputation of His perfect fulfillment of the Law. Having been declared righteous in His sight, we are progressively sanctified by the Spirit. Being freed from slavery to sin, and with the Spirit working within us, we put to death the things of the flesh and grow in grace, doing those good works He prepared for us beforehand to walk in.

We are not perfectly sinless in this life. To say otherwise, particularly with the claim that our salvation is at risk in our imperfection, is not the Gospel.