Does ‘willful sinning’ threaten my salvation?

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day,

Something tells me you have yet to watch the video by professor Ware.... I could be mistaken..


In Him,

Bill

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The title of the thread asked a question and I answered. The title of the thread did not ask me to watch a video. My guess is the video defends the ever popular candy coated Christianity of today that defends how one can sin and still be saved on some level. I am more than willing to check out the video, but my replies should have made it clear that what this guy is selling is not remotely biblical or moral.

BBAS 64 said:

Good day,


Professor Bruce Ware addresses the question:

In Him,.


Bill

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In the video: Bruce mentions John 6 as a defense for Eternal Security.

John 6:37-40 says,

First, what does Jesus mean by,


Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,


However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,


John 6:39 (KJV) says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40


John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 says:

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:


And OSAS terminology:


Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?


Old Source Link Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/
(Note: Website no longer active)

BBAS 64 said:

Good day, Carl

This assumes that faith is conditional and temporary.

When Christ fails , then so shall I.


Why Your Faith Will Not Fail

In Him,

Bill

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Sorry we misunderstood each other I think...

I believe He gives us enduring faith and we never need to worry about losing it...

BBAS 64 said:

Good day,


Professor Bruce Ware addresses the question:

In Him,.


Bill

Click to expand...

In the video: Bruce mentions Philippians 1:6 as a defense for Eternal Security.

First, this verse does not say you can sin and still be saved. Second, these were faithful brethren (i.e. the church at Philippi). Three, the promise of Philippians 1:6 only applies if the conditions are met elsewhere in God's Word, such as Matthew 10:22; Romans 8:13; Galatians 6:8, etc.

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Bible Highlighter

I would refer you to NT Greek Scholar DA Carson and his work on the Gospel of John for the correct exegesis contextually and grammatically of this text, along with His work on the NT use of OT passages as the OT is quoted in this passage.

James White does a really good contextual exegesis in his book drawn by the Father. A bit lighter then the work the DA Carson has done... but never the less you will find it help full.

IN Him,


Bill

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Jesus said beware of the scribes (Luke 20:46). Scribes are those who "tran-SCRIBE" the Law or the Holy Scriptures. Meaning, it is those people who preserve God's Word by writing it down by either translating it into another language or by making copies. This would be the scholar of our day who thinks they know a dead language when they are just taking it by faith that the guys who wrote those old books are defining those words correctly. We have to realize that the book of James says that God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith (James 2:5). This means a bum on the streets with a Bible, or a person at the poverty level with a Bible who cannot afford to even drive to the library and or have internet access can be rich in faith more than any scholar or scribe by just reading and believing their Bible in the English without a large library or without an army of scholars on their side. God's Word is not learned by the wisdom of men.

"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Corinthians 2:13).

Carl Emerson said:

Not so simple...

In the verse you quote ...

1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.

They were turning away from the true faith - this does not mean they had it. They were presented with the truth and then presented with a deception and followed that instead.

Luke 8:12 covers this outcome...

"The seeds along the path are those who hear, but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved...

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Even if you did not want to accept 1 Timothy 4:1 in what it plainly says, its not the only verse about falling away.

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)


And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)

In fact, OSAS believers do not realize that Paul is against Eternal Security. For Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
   
   
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
   
   
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
   
   
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
   
   
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
   
   
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
   
   
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
   
   
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).
    

You are the most well organised purveyor of salvation by works that I know...

How do you account for Jer 32:40

They shall be My people, and I will be their God; 39and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them. 40“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

BBAS 64 said:

Good day,


Professor Bruce Ware addresses the question:

In Him,.


Bill

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In the video: Bruce mentions 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 as a defense for Eternal Security.

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).

Well, first, again this passage does not say you can sin and still be saved while doing so. Second, as mentioned before with Philippians 1:6, this passage (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24) applies if the conditions are met elsewhere in God's Word, such as Matthew 10:22; Romans 8:13; Galatians 6:8, etc. Three, Paul says he needs to pray to God so that the Thessalonians may be preserved blameless. So why does Paul have to pray for the Thessalonians in their being blameless? This does not sound like their sanctification is an automatic guaranteed thing. We are told in Philippians 2:12 to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, as well. Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

Carl Emerson said:

You are the most well organised purveyor of salvation by works that I know...

How do you account for Jer 32:40

They shall be My people, and I will be their God; 39and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them. 40“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

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You misunderstand. I do not believe in "Works ALONE Salvationism" (with little to none of God's grace) of which Paul clearly condemned. No man can save themselves by their own effort or good alone. I believe we are saved by the work of God. I believe the Lord saves us both in His work of grace, and by His work done through us in the Sanctification Process. Check out Ephesians 2:8-10 again. Ephesians 2:9 is a MAN directed work because it is the kind of work that a man would boast in himself in doing (Note: Ephesians 2 is focused on being initially saved by God's grace). Ephesians 2:10 is a completely different kind of work. It is a God directed work done through the believer because these are the kind of works we are created unto Christ Jesus to do.

BBAS 64 said:

Good day,


Professor Bruce Ware addresses the question:

In Him,.


Bill

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Of course it does; the wages of sin is death and that hasn't changed. Jesus came to free us from both sin and death, after all. God cannot be mocked; we reap what we sow; no sinners enter heaven, etc.-as Scripture attests. Jesus shows and gives us the way to overcome sin and reap eternal life. The right way, the New Covenant way, in communion with God who makes us just, who, alone, can justify us. Faith is the means to this justice or righteousness because faith is the means to this communion/relationship with Him.

The video is pretty good. He doesn't have a solid understanding of the role sin may play in our relationship with God, and so he waffles on it to some extent, but overall good; he doesn't accept that willful sin is compatible with a person being saved. He understands that perseverance is important, and that we can have an assurance of salvation to the extent that we observe ourselves persevering.

Bible Highlighter said:

You misunderstand. I do not believe in "Works ALONE Salvationism" (with little to none of God's grace) of which Paul clearly condemned. No man can save themselves by their own effort or good alone. I believe we are saved by the work of God. I believe the Lord saves us both in His work of grace, and by His work done through us in the Sanctification Process. Check out Ephesians 2:8-10 again. Ephesians 2:9 is a MAN directed work because it is the kind of work that a man would boast in himself in doing (Note: Ephesians 2 is focused on being initially saved by God's grace). Ephesians 2:10 is a completely different kind of work. It is a God directed work done through the believer because these are the kind of works we are created unto Christ Jesus to do.

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Comment on salvation being sealed by the fear of God in the New Covenant to come prophesied by Jeremiah please.

Carl Emerson said:

Comment on salvation being sealed by the fear of God in the New Covenant to come prophesied by Jeremiah please.

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It would be nice if you address some of the verses I already put forth.

Carl Emerson said:

You are the most well organised purveyor of salvation by works that I know...

How do you account for Jer 32:40

They shall be My people, and I will be their God; 39and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them. 40“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

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The context is Israel. This is not going to happen until the Millennium for Israel.

BBAS 64 said:

Good day,


Professor Bruce Ware addresses the question:

In Him,.


Bill

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In the video: Bruce mentions Matthew 24:13 that says, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Bruce tries to whitewash these words of Jesus by pointing to the seven churches in Revelation 2-3 in how their condition does not relate to salvation. I would say the warning to certain churches of the removal of their lampstand if they do not repent is an indication that they would not be saved if they do not live correctly in the way the Lord desires of them is a clear indication that they are not once saved alway saved.

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).


We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Enduring or overcoming is a part of salvation:


Think about it for a second. A name cannot be blotted out of the "book of life" if a believer was "Once Saved Always Saved."

Again, the whole notion that you can sin and still be saved is insane. Just read Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, and 1 John 3:15. There is no question that such is the case. A person can be restored back to God by confessing and forsaking sin (Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7). But do not think for a second God's grace is a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). We cannot do evil and just believe in Jesus and we are good to go to Heaven. It does not work like that. Just read Matthew 7:23, and Matthew 13:41-42.

BBAS 64 said:

Good day,


Professor Bruce Ware addresses the question:

In Him,.


Bill

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In the video: Bruce appears to be happy to defend OSAS by pointing to Colossians 1:21-23. Problem is that verse 23 destroys OSAS and he does not even realize it. Frankly, I am surprised he mentioned verse 23. But he did. Let's read the passage.

21 "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Colossians 1:21-23).

Okay. The word "if" is in there. The promise of Colossians 1:21-22 is only applicable or true.....IF you continue in the faith, and you are grounded, and settled and not moved away from the hope of the gospel. The continuing the faith includes not only the gospel but obeying the teachings of Jesus, too. If you continue in the faith. We get faith by hearing the Bible. The Bible has teachings from Jesus. These teachings from Jesus is a part of our faith. If we continue in these teachings by Jesus by believing the gospel AND obeying Jesus and or His words or commands, we are continuing in the faith. THEN.... we are reconciled and THEN we can be presented as holy and unprovable in His sight. Not by our power, but by the Lord working through us.

BBAS 64 said:

Good day,


Professor Bruce Ware addresses the question:

In Him,.


Bill

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Bruce is trying to make the case that the believer who does not endure to the end never really had a saving faith to begin with. This is nonsense. I have already provided in post #109 several lists of verses that make it absolutely 100% clear that a believer (who is genuinely saved) can fall away from the faith and die spiritually. Some can come back (via by confessing and forsaking sin) while they are still alive. Others were not so fortunate like Ananias and Sapphira.

BBAS 64 said:

Good day,


Professor Bruce Ware addresses the question:

In Him,.


Bill

Click to expand...

Bruce appeals to Titus 1:16 as proof that not all faiths are genuine as his proof that nobody can fall away from the faith. This is false. It can be equally true that believers can fall away AND that there can also be those who are fake or false believers, too. But Bruce here is determined to build a doctrine on Titus 1:16 that says that any believer who does not endure they never had a real genuine faith to begin with. This is a false conclusion. Nowhere does Titus 1:16 teach such a thing (Especially when there are a ton of verses on falling away). He simply does not like those verses on falling away. Of course he is not addressing the many verses on my list that do talk about a believer falling away.

Also, Titus 1:16 is proof against Eternal Security. It means that we have to meet the conditions of being fruitful and doing good works in order to say we know the Lord. If there is no fruit, we really do not know Him. This is CONDITIONAL salvation, and not UNCONDITIONAL. If unconditional salvation eternal security was true, then we would not have Titus 1:16 in our Bibles. He is presuming that saved believers will have good fruit. This is true, but they have to cooperate with God. Bruce believes that we are so changed beyond our will that we will just automatically do good works because we are saved. This is simply not the case.

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).


We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Why would the Bible tell us to do these things if they were just automatic from having a genuine and real faith? Also, what if a believer backslides and they are not doing the good works and or living holy? Should they question that their profession of faith in Christ was ever real to begin with? Surely not. It's nonsense. Bruce does not really know what he is talking about here.