Justify women without health insurance staying pregnant

GodLovesCats

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So we are supposed to make murder legal because people will go to any lengths to kill?

It's not a moving argument..

No, we are supposed to reduce the number of dangerous abortions by punishing the people who do them. They are almost like homicides that result in murderers being thrown in prison for life. The problem is the number of such abortions will increase if doctors are not allowed to do it. So making abortions illegal will backfire and result in more sick or even dead women. There must be a way to stop dangerous abortions before all safe methods are banned.
 
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Hazelelponi

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No, we are supposed to reduce the number of dangerous abortions by punishing the people who do them. They are almost like homicides that result in murderers being thrown in prison for life. The problem is the number of such abortions will increase if doctors are not allowed to do it. So making abortions illegal will backfire and result in more sick or even dead women instead of fewer dead babies.

I don't think we could increase abortions of we tried... that's silly.

When abortion was legalized it was sold as safe, legal and rare. 98% of all abortions are for no particular reason other than I didn't want this kid, and we murder at an average rate of more than a million per year.

We had far fewer abortions when it was illegal. Far fewer.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Abortion was always legal. It was just confirmed to be constitutional in 1973.

No, in most states abortion on demand was illegal up to Roe.V. Wade decision - although in many states it was legal in cases of rape and incest well prior to that.

It's long been legal in cases of life of the mother in all states, however.

Roe. V. Wade just meant abortion on demand was legal everywhere. No reason necessary. She regretted her role in that until the day she died, and was an outspoken defender of life (pro-life) when she got older.
 
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GodLovesCats

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No, in some states abortion on demand was illegal up to Roe.V. Wade - although in many it was legal in cases of rape and incest.

I think it's long been legal in cases of life of the mother in all states, however.

It was not just about legality, but also improvements in technology that made abortion much safer and easier.

Because the 1973 ruling was based on the 14th Amendment, it is safe to assume abortion has been legal since the 1800s.
 
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Hazelelponi

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It was not just about legality, but also improvements in technology that made abortion much safer and easier.

Because the 1973 ruling was based on the 14th Amendment, it is safe to assume abortion has been legal since the 1800s.

No.. States made it illegal. The legality of abortion on demand wasn't challenged in the supreme court until 1973, and it was then it became legal.

Before that is was punishable by law in the states and it wasn't challenged. People accepted it as an illegal act.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Actually it was challenged in the 1960s. For some reason the Supreme Court dragged its feet.

Okay. .. well it was still a punishable crime until 1973 in the U.S. because we respected life.
 
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Yekcidmij

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It was not just about legality, but also improvements in technology that made abortion much safer and easier.

"Safer"...except for the baby that dies in the process. It's not very safe for them.
 
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Yekcidmij

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If you know anything about this topic, you fully understand "safe" means the mom is not harmed.

But a baby is killed, so its not a safe process. Suggesting otherwise strikes me a pretty Orwellian.
 
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GodLovesCats

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But a baby is killed, so its not a safe process. Suggesting otherwise strikes me a pretty Orwellian.

Safe means safe for the mother, nothing else. That has always been the meaning of a safe abortion.
 
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Yekcidmij

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Safe means safe for the mother, nothing else. That has always been the meaning of a safe abortion.

A more standard definition of "safe" means free from harm or risk and since a baby is always killed in the process, it's not safe by definition. I simply don't accept your limited, Orwellian definition of "safe" since there is no reason to do so.
 
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GodLovesCats

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A more standard definition of "safe" means free from harm or risk and since a baby is always killed in the process, it's not safe by definition. I simply don't accept your limited, Orwellian definition of "safe" since there is no reason to do so.

"Safe abortion" has always meant the mom is not harmed. That is not my definition. It is the defintion I know to be true. Pro-lifers say all abortions are unsafe just to make up their own definition and push their agendas; gynecologists know they are wrong.
 
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Yekcidmij

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"Safe abortion" has always meant the mom is not harmed. That is not my definition.

It doesn't matter who's definition of "safe" it is - it's wrong. A baby is always killed in the process, which means it's not a safe process for the baby. So therefore, it's not a safe process. Please address the point here and quit avoiding it.

It is the defintion I know to be true. Pro-lifers say all abortions are unsafe just to make up their own definition and push their agendas;

I don't know what pro-lifer's you refer to, but you're talking to me specifically not an unnamed collective. I could also just as easily accuse you of promoting a definition to push your agenda. See how easy that works? We can just swap unsupported accusations at each other and call it a day if you like

gynecologists know they are wrong.

Gynecologists don't dictate and control the definition of the word "safe" so I'm not sure why this is a valid point (nor have you even cited a gynecologist, so I guess I'm to think they are 100% unanimous on your claim. Sure.). Appeals to authority without supporting reasons are not valid arguments.

Argument from authority - Wikipedia

.
 
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GodLovesCats

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It doesn't matter who's definition of "safe" it is - it's wrong. A baby is always killed in the process, which means it's not a safe process for the baby. So therefore, it's not a safe process. Please address the point here and quit avoiding it.

There you go again, denying what the factual, official, objective definition of "safe abortion" means. When you accept that, I will continue.
 
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Yekcidmij

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There you go again, denying what the factual, official, objective definition of "safe abortion" means. When you accept that, I will continue.

What do you mean by "official?" What "official" dictates and controls the definition of "safe?" And I gave an objective, factual definition of "safe" (in fact, I pulled it right out of Webster's) - apparently you just are incapable of dealing with it. "Safe" means free from harm or risk. Abortions kill or attempt to kill a human baby. Therefore the baby is being exposed to extreme harm and extreme risk. Therefore, abortions cannot be safe by definition of the word "safe." You should address my actual argument.

So, no, you didn't give a factual, objective definition, much less an "official" one, whatever that's supposed to mean or prove. You gave a highly subjective definition and didn't cite any sources. My suspicion is that your definition is being employed in an Orwellian fashion - to protect and shield prior moral and philosophical claims about abortion itself.
 
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GodLovesCats

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The most important thing to me regarding abortiom will always be making sure tne mother is not treated like a second-class citizen, that carrying an unwanted baby suddenly makes her less important to society, when in reality she is already more important than ever as someone carrying a new innocent life. After all girls and women who have unwanted pregnancies get what they need and are respected for who they are throughout their pregnancies, there will no longer be any need for elective abortions. It is sad that pro-lifers do not care about these things and think only the existence of one more life matters, not also showing love for the mother.
 
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GodLovesCats

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The M-W definition is limited to just the word safe, not "safe for the mother." There is safe for the embryo and fetus, and there is safe for the mother. I am specifically talking about the latter. And I am saying it to differentiate them from illegal abortions by untrained people in homes, where a woman just tells someone to tear her body apart.
 
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98cwitr

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The most important thing to me regarding abortiom will always be making sure tne mother is not treated like a second-class citizen, that carrying an unwanted baby suddenly makes her less important to society, when in reality she is already more important than ever as someone carrying a new innocent life. After all girls and women who have unwanted pregnancies get what they need and are respected for who they are throughout their pregnancies, there will no longer be any need for elective abortions. It is sad that pro-lifers do not care about these things and think only the existence of one more life matters, not also showing love for the mother.

Explain why a mother wouldn't want her child.

Full disclosure, as a militant atheist at the age of 16, I asked her to have an abortion when my girlfriend told me she was pregnant. That was a sin, a grave one at that. Looking back, I was a dumb kid. Would it have "ruined" my life? At the time I thought it would, but I don't know that. Thankfully, she was just lying to try to test me, but nevertheless, my position was wrong.

If "unwanted" is the metric by which we justify an abortion, why stop at in the womb? Why not kill a 1 or 2 year old child if you suddenly find that you just don't want to be a parent anymore? Please don't read in any tone or rhetoric; I'm sincerely asking.
 
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