The Saint Steve Highlights of Christ Triumphant

Saint Steven · Feb 20, 2020

I have in these comments made two assumptions both very doubtful, and both favorable to the traditional creed.

* It must be noted that the endlessness of the happiness of the Redeemed depends, not on any meaning we assign to aionios. but on its own intrinsic nature, as resulting from union with Him, Who is endless life; and on texts easily to be found elsewhere, e.g., he that does the will of God abides for ever, 1 Jno. ii. 17; Because I live you shall live also, S. Jno. xiv. 19; If a man keep My saying he shall never taste of death. - S. Jno. viii. 51, cf v. 35. Compare Ps. cii. 28.

(I.) I have assumed the reference of aionios to time, which is not capable of proof; for with perfect fairness it may have here that spiritual, ethical meaning it unquestionably at times has in the New Testament; and the meaning then would be, that just and unjust pass into aeonian, i.e., spiritual states of punishment and bliss respectively. (II.) I have assumed the primary reference of this passage to the final Judgment, but that is most improbable; for these words close a continuous discourse extending over chapters xxiv-v. (which our division into chapters obscures.) There is no break throughout. And the question of the disciples, in ch. xxiv., is not about the end of the "world," but of the "age". Thus, if we divest ourselves of traditional impressions, and take Scripture itself as our guide, we see that it is not fair to refer to a distant future, that judgment of which Christ Himself says distinctly, (ch. xxiv. 34,) that ALL THE THINGS He is speaking of should be fulfilled before the passing away of the then generation; and which finds a perfectly natural fulfillment in the terrible calamities, consequent on the fall of Jerusalem, and the end of the (Jewish) age (as these events would be described in Eastern metaphor). And indeed our Lord's words, "all the nations" v. 32, seem to refer to national judgments, and to indicate, in dramatic form, the principle on which judgment falls on nations; certainly increasing reflection makes this reference seem increasingly probable.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

FineLinen · Feb 20, 2020

"Much has been written on the import of the aeonian (eternal) life. Altogether to exclude, (with MAURICE) the notion of time seems impracticable, and opposed to the general usage of the New Testament (and of the Septuagint).

But while this is so, we may fully recognize that the phrase "eternal life" (aeonian life) does at times pass into a region above time, a region wholly moral and spiritual.

Thus, in S. John, the aeonian life (eternal life), of which he speaks, is a life not measured by duration, but a life in the unseen, life in God.

Thus, e.g., God's commandment is life eternal. - S. John. xii. 50.

The popular dogma of endless torment is built up. I say, without hesitation, misleading and incorrect; for aion means "an age," a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length; and the adjective aionios means "of the age," "age-long," "aeonian," and never " everlasting" (of its own proper force), it is true that it may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God. To know Him is life eternal, - ib. xvii. 3, and Christ is the eternal life. - 1 S. John. i. 2; v. 20."

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

Der Alte · Feb 20, 2020

Tra Phull said:
If an aionian worm dieth not, how long does he live?
Yall's worms dieth not - who be pursuing this "forever and ever" or, rather "unto the ages of the ages"
In India there was a word "kalpa" that was an age, I dunno if it's worm died not, but it was a heckuva long time...

If God can create a fire that burns but does not destroy a bush and a fire so hot that it kills people outside a furnace but does not even singe those inside the furnace, I'm sure He can create a worm that does not die.

Der Alte · Feb 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
.... (I.) I have assumed the reference of aionios to time, which is not capable of proof; for with perfect fairness it may have here that spiritual, ethical meaning it unquestionably at times has in the New Testament; and the meaning then would be, that just and unjust pass into aeonian, i.e., spiritual states of punishment and bliss respectively. (II.)...

I wonder if we can find conclusive evidence in the scriptures alone about the meaning of e.g. "olam" rather than relying on assumptions?
Eighteen examples of the Hebrew “olam” in apposition which shows conclusively it means eternal.

Exodus 3:15
[1](15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition, see definition below, to “unto all generations.” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,”“eternal” does.

Psalms 119:44
[2](44) So shall I keep thy law continually for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]

In this vs. “olam” and “ad” is in apposition to “continually.” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “continually,” “eternal” does.

Psalms 21:4
[3](4) He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad][/quote]
In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “length of days”. “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “length of days, “eternal does.

Psalms 45:17
[4](17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee [עולם/olam] and ever:[עד/ad]

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “all generations”, “eternal” does.

Ezekiel 27:36
[5](36) The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt be any more. [עד־עולם/ad-olam]

In this vs. “olam” is contrasted with “never shall be”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not the opposite of “never shall be,” “eternal” is.

Ezekiel 28:19
[6](19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. [עד־עולם/ad-olam]

In this vs. “olam” is contrasted with “never shall be”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not the opposite of “never shall be,” “eternal” is.

Psa 33:11
[7](11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, [ עולם] the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “to all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “eternal” does.

Psa 146:10 The LORD shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the [8]LORD.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “to all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “eternal” does.

Psa 37:28
[9](28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: [ עולם] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “unto all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,” “eternal” does.
[10]

Ecc 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

In this vs. nothing can be added or taken away from God’s acts. “age(s),“ a finite period, does not equate to “nothing can be added or taken away from God acts” “eternal” does.

Isa 51:6
[11](6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “shall not be abolished,” “eternal” does.

Isa 51:8
[12](8) For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my salvation from generation to generation.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “generation to generation,”age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “generation to generation,” “eternal” does.
[13]

Dan 4:34
(34) And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “from generation to generation,”age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “from generation to generation,” “eternal” does.

Dan 4:3
[14](3) How great are his signs, how mighty his wonders! His kingdom is an eternal [ עולם] kingdom; his dominion endures from generation to generation.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “from generation to generation,”age(s),” does not equate to “from generation to generation,” “eternal” does.

Dan 7:14
[15](14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed,” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not pass away, never be destroyed”, “eternal” does.

Jer 23:40
[16](40) I will bring on you everlasting disgrace [ עולם] —everlasting shame [ עולם] that will not be forgotten."

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “will not be forgotten,” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,””eternal” does.

Jer 50:5
[17](5) They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting [ עולם] covenant that will not be forgotten.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “will not be forgotten,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,” ”eternal” does.

Hab 1:12
[18](12) LORD, are you not from everlasting? [ עולם] My God, my Holy One, you will never die. You, LORD, have appointed them to execute judgment; you, my Rock, have ordained them to punish.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “will never die,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will never die,” ”eternal” does.
Here are four examples of the Hebrew “ad” in apposition which show conclusively that it means “eternal.”

Psa 21:4
[1](4) He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever [עד/ad]

In this vs. “ad” is in apposition to “length of days.” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “length of days,” “eternal” does.

Psa 119:44
[2](44) So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.[עד/ad]

In this vs. “ad” is in apposition with “continually.” “age(s)” does not equate to “continually” “eternal” does.

Psa 45:17
[3](17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.[עד/ad]

In this vs. “ad” is in apposition with “in all generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “all generations”

Pro 12:19
[4](19) The lip of truth shall be established for ever: [עד/ad] but a lying tongue is but for a moment.

In this vs. “ad” is contrasted with ”for a moment.” “Age(s)” is not opposite to “for a moment” “eternal” is.
The definition of “apposition” from a Hebrew grammar.

§131. Apposition.
131a 1. Apposition in the stricter sense is the collocation of two substantives in the same case in order to define more exactly (or to complete) the one by the other, and, as a rule (see, however, below, under g), the former by the latter. Apposition in Hebrew (as in the other Semitic languages[1]) is by no means confined to those cases in which it is used in English or in the classical languages. It is not infrequently found when either the subordination of one substantive to the other or some more circumstantial kind of epexegetical addition would be expected.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gesenius'_Hebrew_Grammar/131._Apposition

Tra Phull · Feb 20, 2020

My updated analogy of professional sports teams from Los Angeles representing various views on the afterlife of the unsaved:

LAKERS believe in a literal lake of fire, this is probably the most dominant view of Christians present and past.

CLIPPERS are the Anihilationists, when the silver cord of Ecclesiastes is clipped, they just die when they die. The favorite verse of CLIPPERS is THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH - they wear T-shirts that have that verse on the front AND ON THE BACK -printed in English, Hebrew, Latin and Greek.

DODGERS can't buy into these first two approaches, and DODGE the issue. I thought once that these 3 would cover all beliefs, until on one board I used the acronym ETC (for Eternal Conscious Torment) and a guy responded "What's ETC? Electro Convulsive Therapy?" which cracked me up, so I added a 4th category - CHARGERS

CHARGERS are a catch-all of beliefs, and now basketball, baseball and football are all represented in this milieu of Los Angeles professional sports teams.

But beware - in the Apple of thine eye may be the Worm that dieth not!

Tra Phull · Feb 20, 2020

The focus should be on AVOIDING all the possible afterlife states of the unbeliever - by BEING and REMAINING a BELIEVER

Believe and confess, so -
Fire-Place no go !!!

Der Alte · Feb 20, 2020

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
Thus, e.g., God's commandment is life eternal. - S. John. xii. 50.
The popular dogma of endless torment is built up. I say, without hesitation, misleading and incorrect; for aion means "an age," a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length; and the adjective aionios means "of the age," "age-long," "aeonian," and never " everlasting" (of its own proper force), it is true that it may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God. To know Him is life eternal, - ib. xvii. 3, and Christ is the eternal life. - 1 S. John. i. 2; v. 20."...

There is no such Greek or Hebrew rule of grammar as "the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God."
…..This "rule" has been concocted by UR writers for the sole purpose of supporting UR doctrine.
…..In the following study, which has never been refuted, I have shown conclusively many times that the NT alone clearly shows the meaning of aionios.
.....In twenty four [24] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
List of verses cited:1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33,Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26, John 3:36 , John 4:14, John 6:27
…..In the NT “aion/aionios” sometimes refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
…..In 10 of these verses Jesus has defined “aionios” as eternal. In 8 verses Paul has defined “aionios” as eternal.

[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[3]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]

In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.

In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.

In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.

In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”

[8] 1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, which is is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”

[Character limit. continued next post]

Der Alte · Feb 20, 2020

[Previous post continued]

[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[15]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

[17] John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
[18] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[19]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[20]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[21]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[22] John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[23] John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.

In this verse aionios is contrasted with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[24]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[25]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."

According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent,

The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.

Tra Phull · Feb 20, 2020

DA exceeded character limit!
There must be some AWARD for this !!

Tra Phull · Feb 20, 2020

Remember, in calculating the exact length of an AGE - to factor in Leap Years!

If ye trow not whether to use Solar or Lunar years - use 'em both !!

Der Alte · Feb 20, 2020

Tra Phull said:
DA exceeded character limit!
There must be some AWARD for this !!

The poster formerly known as Oldshepherd and Odsolo declines any such award.

Tra Phull · Feb 20, 2020

Declining noted, DA.

Tra Phull · Feb 20, 2020

How long is "age, ages, and half an age"?

This may be the length of the Tribulation.

FineLinen · Feb 20, 2020

Tra Phull said:
My updated analogy of professional sports teams from Los Angeles representing various views on the afterlife of the unsaved:

LAKERS believe in a literal lake of fire, this is probably the most dominant view of Christians present and past.

Dear Tra: The professional sports teams must stick to what they do best.

Our God is literally consuming fire, He is also literally the Lake of Fire & Diety radiating with theion & theioo.

There is no such animal as "unsaved". One is saved or lost.

No one can become unsaved!

Tra Phull · Feb 20, 2020

A person, not an animal, can be UNSAVED right now; they are not LOST til either they kick the bucket or Christ returns.

The unsaved can be saved; the lost cannot be unlost

FineLinen · Feb 20, 2020

Tra Phull said:
A person, not an animal, can be UNSAVED right now; they are not LOST til either they kick the bucket or Christ returns.

The unsaved can be saved; the lost cannot be unlost

Dear Tra: The lost are only lost until found by the Saviour of the all. He loses nothing, not leftover pieces of bread & fish, and most surely NOT those for whom He is the at-one-ment.

Everything & everybody is destined in the fullness of times for reconciliation, not one single aspect escaping the far reaching grasp of the Living God!

Have you seen the picture of the Saviour of the all on the walls of the catacombs?

My old eyes must be in need of glasses!

"The Father Who Lost Two Sons" by Robert Farrar Capon | Facebook

Der Alte · Feb 20, 2020

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
The lost are only lost until found by the Saviour of the all. He loses nothing, not leftover pieces of bread & fish, and most surely NOT those for whom He is the at-one-ment.
Everything & everybody is destined in the fullness of times for reconciliation, not one single aspect escaping the far reaching grasp of the Living God!

Commendable sentiments unfortunately not supported by scripture.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I wonder if some UR-ite can show me where Jesus will say to these "Oh I changed my mind I now know you."

Tra Phull · Feb 20, 2020

Can't quite buy into the UR stuff

One time Jesus said "never knew you"
One time "I know ye not from whence ye are"

But don't recall the "changed my mind, I know you now" thing

Saint Steven · Feb 20, 2020

Tra Phull said:
Can't quite buy into the UR stuff

One time Jesus said "never knew you"
One time "I know ye not from whence ye are"

But don't recall the "changed my mind, I know you now" thing

Since Jesus is God, he is omniscient, correct?
Seems like he knows everyone. No need to remember.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Tra Phull · Feb 20, 2020

Did the guy die who ran the TentMaker site?

The Saint Steve Highlights of Christ Triumphant

You can call me Steve

Senior Veteran

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Ecumenical Loose Canon

Ecumenical Loose Canon

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Ecumenical Loose Canon

Ecumenical Loose Canon

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Ecumenical Loose Canon

Ecumenical Loose Canon

Senior Veteran

Ecumenical Loose Canon

Senior Veteran

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Ecumenical Loose Canon

You can call me Steve

Ecumenical Loose Canon

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