Does ‘willful sinning’ threaten my salvation?

Al Touthentop said:

I agree with you for the most part. Paul said that those reading could understand. To place emphasis on supernatural indwelling of the spirit as if it is some sort of alternative to scripture or as if it allows us to be slack in our study is dangerous. I've had a lot of people tell me that my understanding of scripture is wrong because "the Holy Spirit told me it means this."

The Holy Spirit would never have us arguing over the words he delivered to the apostles and authors of the New Testament.

I'm not accusing you of doing that. But I am just saying I consider that the way the Holy Spirit guides today's Christians into all truth is through the scripture he inspired.

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Because the Holy Spirit inspired the Biblical authors in the first place, He is not going to twist His own inspired Word out of context to mean something He never intended in the first place. I believe that the Holy Spirit has communicated everything that God has, and will say to mankind and to His own genuinely converted believers.

When we ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and help, He will always take us back to the Scriptures and will give us the appropriate spiritual insight into what He is saying to us through the pages of the Bible.

Because the Holy Spirit is representing Jesus to us until Jesus comes again, a good rule of thumb for guidance is to ask oneself, "What would Jesus do in this situation?" Then, as we read through the gospels, we will see a similar situation where Jesus either did something according to His nature and character, or taught someone.

I believe the Holy Spirit fully supports:
"If you want to know the will of God, read the Bible."
"If you want to do the will of God, do the Bible."

It is one thing to argue over different doctrines in the Bible and one's interpretation of them; but it is quite another to see what Jesus or Paul would do in a situation and do it ourselves. It is much easier to discuss and argue than to get down and do the right thing as guided by the examples and instructions we see in the written Word.

Al Touthentop said:

The scripture is the living word of God.

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Has it occurred to you that Heb 4:12 was penned before the scripture as we know it today was compiled.

Has it occurred to you that Heaven and earth will pass away but My Word will not pass away is speaking of His breathed Eternal Word that remains after every fragment of scripture is burned up.

Yes the Scripture is a beautiful and necessary gift.

No the scripture was never meant to be idolised and replace His living Word.

Nor was it meant to replace His living Word in our hearts.

His living Word in our hearts - the voice of God - The Holy Spirit - brings the Scripture alive to the chosen.

The Scripture without the Spirit is a dead book or worse - able to bring serious deception to the ungodly.

Satan used it to test Jesus - How could Satan use God's Living Word... Think about that contradiction.

Answer... because the words on the page without the Holy Spirit do not impart life. Satan imparts death.

Have you ever heard God speak and be rendered speechless and undone?

This gives a huge respect for the voice of the Holy Spirit, the awesome Power of the Father and the Word of God which is the person of Jesus.

We worship Jesus the living Word, the Logos, not the book.

The book is a beautiful tool...

Please don't elevate it into the trinity - that is blasphemous.

Al Touthentop said:

Paul equated being filled with the spirit to letting the word (scripture) dwell in you and he explained that the way one did that was to be obedient to that word. They are not different things.



The Spirit lives in the words. Even those words on parchment.

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The words Jesus spoke are Spirit and they are life. They are still Spirit and Life. The written word will never be contradicted by the living Word, but the written word has no life in in and of itself. "For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light we see light." Psalm 36:9
Unless we have "light" (which is the Lord Jesus) illuminating the written word, we will see only what we can see with our own natural understanding. That we are commanded not to do.

"Who among you fears the LORD and obeys the voice of His Servant? Who among you walks in darkness and has no light? Let him trust in the name of the LORD; let him lean on his God. Behold, all you who kindle a fire, who array yourselves with firebrands, walk in the light of your fire and of the firebrands you have lit! This is what you will receive from My hand: You will lie down in a place of torment.…"
Isaiah 50:10 & 11

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding...." Proverbs 3:5

Carl Emerson said:

There it is again...

Heb 4:12

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

You have assumed that this 'word of God' is a reference to scripture rather than God's living word in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Look at verse 13...

13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

If it was scripture it would not be addressed as He...

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One tends to forget that the authors of the written Scriptures were inspired by the Holy Spirit to communicate everything that God has chosen to say to mankind.

I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is double-minded. He is not going to say something that is contrary to what He has already inspired a Biblical author to say or write. For example, in Psalm 119 He says, "Your Word (Moses and the Prophets) is a light to my path and a lamp for my feet". He is not then going to say to anyone, "Disregard My inspired written Word, and do something different." Jesus also made it quite clear that He fully supports Moses and the Prophets, when He had Abraham reply to the rich man in hell that the guy's brothers had Moses and the Prophets, and if they did not believe them, then even someone rising from the dead wouldn't convince them to change their ways.

Notice that the Psalmist did not say, "The direct voice of the Holy Spirit is a light for my path and a lamp for my feet". Jesus did not tell the rich man, "Your brothers have the direct voice of the Holy Spirit, and if they don't listen to Him, then even if someone rose from the dead they wouldn't change their ways."

Therefore, the Holy Spirit will always speak and work in harmony with the written Scriptures. He made it quite clear through the Psalmist, and Jesus made it quite clear to the rich man.

Both the Holy Spirit and Jesus share the same nature and character as the Father. and it says "God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is not a man that He should lie; neither the son of man that He should repent."

Therefore, Luke, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit showed that even the preaching of Paul, also inspired by the Holy Spirit, had to be validated by the Bereans, who searched the written Scriptures daily to see whether what Paul preached "was so." If the Bereans were listening to the voice of the Holy Spirit, Luke would have said that they would have waited on God and listened for the validating voice of the Holy Spirit to determine whether what Paul preached "was so". But Luke didn't say that. He clearly pointed out that the validation for any preaching or teaching had to come from the written Scriptures. And because the Holy Spirit was inspiring Luke to write, then it is the Holy Spirit Himself who is saying that validation comes through the written Scriptures.

Al Touthentop said:

The scripture is the living word of God.

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That's not what Jesus said. That's not what John's gospel says. I tend to agree with them. Without the Holy Spirit illuminating the Word, we end up exactly where we are today. If you think that the church has arrived at holiness perfection, I beg to differ.

Oscarr said:

I believe that the Holy Spirit has communicated everything that God has, and will say to mankind and to His own genuinely converted believers.

When we ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and help, He will always take us back to the Scriptures and will give us the appropriate spiritual insight into what He is saying to us through the pages of the Bible.

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Dear friend.

When you preach this you render silent the Living Word within us as we walk in the way.

This is NOT was Jesus intended.

This is robbing believers of a conversational relationship with Jesus and rendering Mute the voice of the spirit within as we walk in the Way.

I can only assume you have never experienced this. (I hope I am wrong)

I am an ordinary Joe Blow and He speaks to me specifically about going here or there and the timing. How else could I have followed His inner voice to arrive at a certain house to pray for a lady at the moment of actually having a heart attack because God did not want her to die?

This is the life of exciting obedience that He wants some of us to walk in.

Please don't put folks off seeking this if they are called to it.

Don't get me wrong - I read nothing but scripture, intensely with no other input, for over 5 years and more normally for 50 years, and consider it essential to weigh all matters of truth. But to insist that we have to pull a bible out of out back pocket to see which street to go down is nonsense.

His living word within us, the voice of the shepherd, Jesus Himself (John 10) speaks to our spirit (Rom 8:16) and says "this is the way - walk ye in it...

Sabertooth said:

I see fruitfulness/Salvation by persistence in John 15 and many other verses in Scripture. God does all of the heavy lifting, but we still must be present.

His yoke is easy and His burden is light, but they still are a yoke and a burden.

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All that post does is repeat the original claim in different words. I asked a very specific question. How does John 15:1-8 teach what you say it teaches? I'm not asking what you "see;" I am asking you how the first eight verses in John 15 teach what was claimed.

Could you explain how John 15:1-8 teaches "continued refusal to repent" threatens a person's salvation?

If so then please do so, but please do not simply re-assert the claim to be proven in different wording.

Could you explain how John 15:1-8 teaches "continued refusal to repent" threatens a person's salvation?

Sabertooth said:

I can add nothing new to the OSAS/Conditional Preservation of the Saints debate. (And, I suspect, neither can you.)

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Nice red herring. My question has nothing to do with your (or my) adding something new to anything (even though it appears something has been added to John 15:1-8 quite wantonly.

Can you please explain how a passage that makes absolutely no mention of repentance teaches "continued refusal to repent" threatens a person's salvation?

Carl Emerson said:

Of course as long as we remember that the Law was only ever kept once.

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If you are inferring that loving God above all else and your neighbor as yourself is the Law, you are correct.
If you are saying those that have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts still commit sin, you are wrong.

Josheb said:

Could you explain how John 15:1-8 teaches "continued refusal to repent" threatens a person's salvation?
Can you please explain how a passage that makes absolutely no mention of repentance teaches "continued refusal to repent" threatens a person's salvation?

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Do you perceive a difference between folks who bring forth the fruit of God (righteousness), and those who bring forth the fruit of the devil (sin)?

Phil W said:

If you are inferring that loving God above all else and your neighbor as yourself is the Law, you are correct.
If you are saying those that have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts still commit sin, you are wrong.

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May God one day show you the righteousness of Jesus and the Holiness of the Father.

Then you would never - never - never claim sinless perfection.

Any righteousness we have is the imputed righteousness of Jesus - period.

As we allow His righteousness through obedience to work through us there is eternal reward. He determines this at judgement. Gold and precious stones or hay wood and stubble. This judgement would be meaningless if believers were all sinless and perfect.

Carl Emerson said:

May God one day show you the righteousness of Jesus and the Holiness of the Father.
Then you would never - never - never claim sinless perfection.

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That sounds kinda counter-intuitive.
Why would God show me something unattainable through the grace and power of God?
Fact is, He has showed me just how to attain such a pleasing state before God.

Any righteousness we have is the imputed righteousness of Jesus - period.

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Amen to that.
But that imputation is worthless in a man who is still unrighteous.

As we allow His righteousness through obedience to work through us there is eternal reward. He determines this at judgement. Gold and precious stones or hay wood and stubble. This judgement would be meaningless if believers were all sinless and perfect.

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There will indeed be a final judgement, and some will hear "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity".
No imputations there.

BBAS 64 said:

Does ‘willful sinning’ threaten my salvation?

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Well, if anyone reads their Bible and believes what it says plainly the answer to this question is clearly a resounding... "yes."

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” (Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

You ignored my point...

I repeat.

As we allow His righteousness through obedience to work through us there is eternal reward. He determines this at judgement. Gold and precious stones or hay wood and stubble. This judgement would be meaningless if believers were all sinless and perfect.

Please explain why this judgement is needed if all true believers are sinless and perfect, never do anything wrong, cant ever be incorrect about anything, always have perfect theology, are in fact infallible ???

BBAS 64 said:

Does ‘willful sinning’ threaten my salvation?

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How many times did Adam have to willfully sin before the Fall of Man took place?
How many willful sins did Ananias and Sapphira have to commit before they were each killed? Just one. It only took one. Adam's sin placed all of mankind into spiritual death. Ananias and Sapphira were condemned by their sin of lying to the Spirit. So yes. Sin can threaten a person's salvation indeed. Well, that is if one believes the Bible plainly in what it says. If they do not like what the Bible says, they will of course try to change, ignore, or re-write the Bible to suit their personal belief that is more comforting.

Carl Emerson said:

You ignored my point...

I repeat.

As we allow His righteousness through obedience to work through us there is eternal reward. He determines this at judgement. Gold and precious stones or hay wood and stubble. This judgement would be meaningless if believers were all sinless and perfect.

Please explain why this judgement is needed if all true believers are sinless and perfect, never do anything wrong, cant ever be incorrect about anything, always have perfect theology, are in fact infallible ???

Click to expand...

Surely God knows that believers can stumble to sin on rare occasion or even struggle with sin but there is a grand canyon divide of difference between that line of thinking vs. thinking like most in the church today think about sin and salvation. Most in the church today think they sin every day (like lying, lusting, hating, cursing, etc.) and they are still saved by having a belief on Jesus. Sure, they may reject the really bad sins like murder, rape, child abuse, etc. but they justify other sins as if it was a way of life and yet they undoubtedly believe they are saved. This is why belief alone in Jesus is important to them. No need to really live a changed life really. One can sin and still be saved on some level.... all because they have a belief in Jesus. But even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

Bible Highlighter said:

Well, if anyone reads their Bible and believes what it says plainly the answer to this question is clearly a resounding... "yes."

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” (Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

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Here comes the cut and paste brigade again...

No assurance of or joy of salvation then...

Just fear of losing faith - waiting for the man on the cloud with a big stick to cast you into hell if you put a foot wrong.

And this is the good news ???

I dont think so.

I am so thankful that He has covered all my sin - past present and future - and that the Holy Fear of Him keeps me from falling from grace.

Hallelujah

Let us rejoice in what He has done for us !!!

Bible Highlighter said:

Surely God knows that believers can stumble to sin on rare occasion or even struggle with sin but there is a grand canyon divide of difference between that line of thinking vs. thinking like most in the church today think about sin and salvation. Most in the church today think they sin every day (like lying, lusting, hating, cursing, etc.) and they are still saved by having a belief on Jesus. Sure, they may reject the really bad sins like murder, rape, child abuse, etc. but they justify other sins as if it was a way of life and yet they undoubtedly believe they are saved. This is why belief alone in Jesus is important to them. No need to really live a changed life really. One can sin and still be saved on some level.... all because they have a belief in Jesus. But even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

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Yes if one is saved ones life is changed.

But Phil was promoting sinless perfection which it seems you and I reject.

Carl Emerson said:

Here comes the cut and paste brigade again...

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Quoting Scripture is not mindlessly copying and pasting. I did specifically choose those verses for the reply with real thought and intent. It was unique in this case. Sure, there are times where I have simply just repeated what I had written elsewhere, but that is not wrong. Jesus quoted Scripture. So was it bad for Jesus to copy and paste in a verbal way? No. Most surely not. Quoting Scripture is never wrong. Jesus defeated the devil just by quoting Scripture. This is a form of copying and pasting but it was done in a verbal way.

No assurance of or joy of salvation then...

Just fear of losing faith - waiting for the man on the cloud with a big stick to cast you into hell if you put a foot wrong.

And this is the good news ???

I dont think so.

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God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

Care to take a crack at answering verses like Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, and 1 John 3:15, etc.?

You said:

I am so thankful that He has covered all my sin - past present and future - and that the Holy Fear of Him keeps me from falling from grace.

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Sorry. That is false. We cannot be forgiven of future sin because we are told to confess of sin in order to be forgiven of sin. See 1 John 1:9.

Carl Emerson said:

Yes if one is saved ones life is changed.

But Phil was promoting sinless perfection which it seems you and I reject.

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Well, I believe Sinless Perfection is possible, I do not believe it is a salvation issue (Note: This is the furthest I will talk about Sinless Perfection because it is not allowed to be discussed at length in this section of the forums). Anyways, I believe not all sin is the same. I believe there are sins that we must overcome that can condemn us (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.). Other sins do not lead to spiritual death (See: 1 John 5:16-17). There are faults of character, and not being baptized which are sins that do not lead to spiritual death.

Here is a pivotal exchange between Phil and I...
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Me...
Any righteousness we have is the imputed righteousness of Jesus - period.

Phil
Amen to that.
But that imputation is worthless in a man who is still unrighteous.
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Now that last statement in red Phil makes me think that Phil does not understand what imputed righteousness is and why it is needed.

Is this not the heart of the good news that if we confess our sins He is righteous and just to forgive our sins and cleans us from all unrighteousness.

While we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.