Belief statements vs. behavior

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In this case it may be the person has been on skywalks before but not on this skywalk and so his comment is based on other experiences he has had, but not on his experience of this one. He may believe it is safe probably based on reasoning and other experiences of skywalks, just as a patient may believe anesthetics are safe and surgeons don't cut you open until you are well anesnetized, but still experiences some anxiety when he is being wheeled to the operating theatre. So there seems to be a zone were one's emotions may be somewhat in tension with one's beliefs or reason, while yet one could still be said to believe? That he acted by walking out on the Grand Canyon skywalk shows he was prepared to act on his belief, but if he said it was safe but looked around for an excuse to avoid going out on it then I would say he didn't really believe it was safe in the first place.

This is a nice analysis. I think you're right, there is sometimes a conflict between what we reasonably believe to be true and feelings (beliefs?) to the contrary. So, maybe there is some doubt, but not enough to override the reasonable belief. Then again, as you indicated, if he said the skywalk was perfectly safe, and then looked for ways to avoid walking on it, that might be an indication that he really didn't believe it was safe.
 
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I know I can swim. My mom took me to lessons every summer as a kid and I lived close to the Pacific Ocean. The neighborhood kids and I went there about every day and i swam in the ocean all day long. I'd go out to where my feet couldn't touch the ground. I knew the lifeguards would call everyone in if a jellyfish was spotted or a riptide.
Then Jaws came out... I still knew I could swim. I still trusted the lifeguards with riptides and jellyfish but I aware there could be things they might not see. I never went out past my knees or waist, even then I suspected there were things lurking that couldn't be seen.

Thank you for sharing this. This is such a good example of knowing (believing) one thing but acquiring more information (unknowns?) which create doubt that overrides what one knows.

I believe in helping the poor. Some ppl on the street are scary. Some charities don't give the money to the cause so much, but pay CEOs. And, there is the ever present narrative of what is truly helping the poor on social media. Fear, fear, fear. People get bogged down with it and it looks like they are doing nothing.
I think it's why God tells us so many times not to be afraid. Fear stops us from doing what we believe.

I think you are hitting on something important. Fear has come up a number of times. It seems that fear is often one of the main reasons that keeps us from acting on what we believe to be true. Does that sound right?
 
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We all speak what we desire to be true.

That's interesting. So, you're saying that we sometimes say, not so much what we believe, but what we would like to be true?
 
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Hmm. No, I meant intellectual assent but used the wrong word. ^_^ I do think that faith is much more than intellectual assent, but not identical to whatever surface level moods you might be experiencing.

Haha, well I did like what I thought you might have meant by consent. ^_^ I agree with what you're saying about faith not being identical with surface level moods. This might indicate the influence of Stoicism (or Philippians 4:11-13) on me, but I tend to disregard feelings as adequate indicators of what is the case.

I tend to think that a significant part of faith is going forward in spite of how things may seem (or may, in fact, be), trusting the promises and what I understand about God, Christ, the faith, etc. What I thought you might have meant by consent (^_^) is that we consent to the promises and hope of the faith in spite of circumstances, feelings, etc. I do think belief plays a part, but consent or trust the bigger part. This is especially the case for someone like me who can analyze myself into a nice dark hole, haha. :sigh:
 
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Most of the time.
Being self aware is a skill about 10% have to a good degree, according to researchers.

There's a nice, brute honesty to what you're saying that I appreciate. I wonder, though. If we are (mostly?) delusional, which I take you to mean we are often mistaken, then how can we trust anything we think we believe. Is there no happy mean between the extremes of thinking we know without healthy self-awareness and unhealthy skepticism?
 
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tend to think that a significant part of faith is going forward in spite of how things may seem (or may, in fact, be), trusting the promises and what I understand about God, Christ, the faith, etc.

Sometimes I have a real issue with trust the way I should. It's probably my main issue.

I've been through my own personal hell in life, one thing after another of life just hitting you with a baseball bat. It's to the point now, that I almost get a kind of shell shock when adversity strikes.

I've been saved now over 5 years, so I'm still a baby, and while my life in more ways than one is SOOO much better now than I've ever known.. But when adversity strikes us, and it's done so in a few major ways lately, even though I'm walking in faith, I can't help but sometimes get frustrated and think please God not again!

Turning everything over and having peace and trust that God will work it all out in the middle of a storm is something my husband does with ease.. but me? I keep feeling that please not again!

Lol.. my husband says it will all stop once my trust in Him is perfected, and you know, I know he's right.. but sometimes its difficult you know?

So God's working with me on that..
 
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There's a nice, brute honesty to what you're saying that I appreciate. I wonder, though. If we are (mostly?) delusional, which I take you to mean we are often mistaken, then how can we trust anything we think we believe. Is there no happy mean between the extremes of thinking we know without healthy self-awareness and unhealthy skepticism?

10-15% of people, they found. I have no way to know if you are or are not.
But you are asking questions, which suggests you have a good shot.
What Self-Awareness Really Is (and How to Cultivate It)
 
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I can't help but sometimes get frustrated and think please God not again!

In speaking about trust that way, I hope I didn't make it sound easy, or that trusting God meant one didn't get frustrated with God. I think the Book of Lamentations and the lament Psalms are there to remind us that people of faith being frustrated with God is sometimes part of it. There are times that all I have been able to do was put one foot in front of the other. And, I have never hesitated to tell God exactly how things didn't seem right to me. God can handle it. I pray our Lord will grant you strength and peace going forward. I won't forget to pray for you and your family. We have to stick together and lift each other up. :)
 
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Hazelelponi

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In speaking about trust that way, I hope I didn't make it sound easy, or that trusting God meant one didn't get frustrated with God. I think the Book of Lamentations and the lament Psalms are there to remind us that people of faith being frustrated with God is sometimes part of it. There are times that all I have been able to do was put one foot in front of the other. And, I have never hesitated to tell God exactly how things didn't seem right to me. God can handle it. I pray our Lord will grant you strength and peace going forward. I won't forget to pray for you and your family. We have to stick together and lift each other up. :)

Thank you for your prayers..

And no, you didn't make it seem easy.. although my husband makes it look easy.. lol.

But he's been Christian all his life, and truly saved since his early 20's and he just always has this peace about him I've never seen in any other..

I do know we all have struggles from time to time though - and thanks for reminding me of lamentations. We sometimes forget that book is even there don't we?!

Yes.. not alone. :)
 
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lsume

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My question concerns those instances where someone states they believe p, and yet their behavior indicates they believe not-p. How are we to understand these instances?

In each example let's be generous and assume each person believes they believe what they say they believe. :)

Example 1
Jim is at the Grand Canyon and says, "I believe it is perfectly safe to walk out on the skywalk." However, when he walks out on it he begins to shake, trembling with fear. Does Jim believe the skywalk is perfectly safe, or no?

Example 2
Betty says that she trusts her boyfriend, Bill. And yet, when Bill is not around she often worries that he is acting in an untrustworthy manner. Does Betty believe Bill is trustworthy, or no?

Example 3
Elmer states that he believes all races are equal. And yet, Elmer exhibits implicit bias in his everyday interactions with those of races other than his own. Does Elmer believe all races are equal, or no?

Theological example 1
Percival says that he believes he is forgiven by the grace given in Jesus Christ. And yet, Percival experiences fears that he is unforgiven. Does Percival believe that he is forgiven, or no?

Theological example 2
Fred, a professing Christian, says that he believes Christians should help the poor. And yet, Fred makes no effort to help the poor. Does Fred believe Christians should help the poor, or no?

I have tried to give a wide variety of examples in hopes of helping us get a better sense of the issue. People's belief statements are sometimes at odds with their behavior, reactions, experiences, etc. There seems to be several explanations.

One possibility is that in spite of what one says they believe, their actions, reactions, behavior, etc. belie the truth. They may say they believe p, but their behavior shows they really believe not-p. This does not mean they are lying when they say they believe p, but it does raise the question as to why they think they believe something when it seems they don't.

Another possibility is that a person can believe both p and not-p, just not with the same credence value (i.e. believes one more than the other). The problem with this explanation is that in the examples above each one clearly believes they believe one and not the other. So, how can one believe what they don't believe they believe. ;)

Finally, the theological examples highlight one of the problems with assuming that Christian faith is simply a matter of mere belief. In Theological Example 1, the issue may be that Percival has a mere belief that forgiveness is given through Jesus Christ, but not the requisite trust that such grace has been given to him.

What are your thoughts? Do we believe things we don't believe? If so, how can one be mistaken about one's own beliefs? Or, do we really believe what we think we believe, but not as much as we might have assumed? What are some other possibilities?

As far as the theological examples go: Is faith a matter of mere belief, or is there something else entailed in faith, such as trust? Does one's beliefs need to be commensurate with one's behavior? Why or why not?
I think that maybe your looking for the word hypocrite? I know that I have been a hypocrite in my Christian walk and I pray that will not be the case in the future. However, any sin by a professing Christian can be seen as an act of hypocrisy. That doesn’t change the fact that I want to share The Truth about The Gospel. The Good News about our hope in Christ. I wish that I never sin again. I don’t want to be turned into a vegetable either. I strongly believe that through Christ we can live a life without willful sin. What is willful sin? When you absolutely know something is sinful and you continue in that sin with no intention of stopping. In The Word found in Hebrews, to sin like that described cannot receive forgiveness. That type of sin gets punishment according to God’s Will. I believe that when King Saul fell out of good standing with God The Father, he experienced some of what is described Hebrews 10:26,27. I know that I have had a taste of what is described in the same verses and I never want to have anything like the experience again. It lasted for years in my case and to my understanding.


Heb.10 Verses 26 to 27

  1. [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
 
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I absolutely agree.



That's an interesting way to put it. So, you're saying that faith always has a future element to it?
That's a really good question. In one sense, faith becomes concrete the moment that it has an object, the "mould" so to speak. So faith can up in an unbeliever when they hear the gospel. The moment they accept Christ, they are born again. So faith has an immediate effect.

There is another aspect of faith that often gets overlooked. Faith is often tested. We need to know if our faith is real or presumption. Presumption is false faith based on a false premise.

Lord Jesus gave the word to the disciples. Let's get in the boat and cross to the other side of the lake. Satan sent a storm. The disciples panicked. They had faith in their circumstances, not in the word of the Lord. Lord Jesus shut the storm down then rebuked them for their little faith. At least they knew who to turn to when the going got rough!

The Bible links faith and endurance/patience often. It took four years for a promise God gave us to materialise. For about a year, it was impossible. We had a "mountain" in the way. Then another 3 years of waiting. It's not that easy, but we had God's promise. He cannot lie.
 
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public hermit

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10-15% of people, they found. I have no way to know if you are or are not.
But you are asking questions, which suggests you have a good shot.
What Self-Awareness Really Is (and How to Cultivate It)

So, I was about to respond with "Shouldn't Christians already be self-aware, just by the nature of the faith?" I mean, here we are about to enter Lent. Isn't that part of what Lent is about: introspection, recalibration, renewal of repentance, etc.

But, then I read the article you posted. It states that, surprisingly, sometimes people who are introspective are less self-aware. Partly because we can't get an objective view on our own experience, partly because the introspective person asks "Why?" questions and then makes the answers up ^_^, confident that they have hit the source of the problem, haha. Interesting.

So, the article suggests instead of asking "Why?" we should be asking "What?" The idea seems to be, instead of asking why such and such went wrong, we should be asking "What should I do to go forward in a more productive manner?" It seems to be a more future oriented approach vs. reflecting on what went wrong in the past. That is very helpful. Thank you.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I think that maybe your looking for the word hypocrite? I know that I have been a hypocrite in my Christian walk and I pray that will not be the case in the future. However, any sin by a professing Christian can be seen as an act of hypocrisy. That doesn’t change the fact that I want to share The Truth about The Gospel. The Good News about our hope in Christ. I wish that I never sin again. I don’t want to be turned into a vegetable either. I strongly believe that through Christ we can live a life without willful sin. What is willful sin? When you absolutely know something is sinful and you continue in that sin with no intention of stopping. In The Word found in Hebrews, to sin like that described cannot receive forgiveness. That type of sin gets punishment according to God’s Will. I believe that when King Saul fell out of good standing with God The Father, he experienced some of what is described Hebrews 10:26,27. I know that I have had a taste of what is described in the same verses and I never want to have anything like the experience again. It lasted for years in my case and to my understanding.


Heb.10 Verses 26 to 27

  1. [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

How Does ‘Willful Sinning’ Threaten My Salvation?

^^ good article
 
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I think that maybe your looking for the word hypocrite?

I can see why you are taking that approach. Certainly, one could say they believe one thing and not really mean it. The Greek word that "hypocrite" comes from simply means "an actor," i.e. one who plays a part. So, yes, there might be those who say one thing only to put on the façade of being what they say.

I am more interested in cases where one truly believes p (whatever p might be), and yet their actions, behavior, responses, seem to indicate they believe otherwise. Take the first example I gave. He isn't trying to act like the skywalk is safe, he truly believes it is. In other words, he's not "playing the part" of one who thinks it's safe. He believes it is safe. And yet, when he walks out on it he is afraid.
 
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lsume

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The topic started about living ones faith has made me think more about it. I professed being a born again Christian for about 16 years before I actually was. I had met very briefly a man who was a complete stranger at our church. He approached me and asked me if I was born again. I said yes and he said I thought I was. The whole conversation lasted maybe 20 seconds. I never to my memory ever saw that guy again but when Christ came to me as a thief in the night and I later was Truly Born Again, I understood what he told me. I spent my first years awakened trying to find others. I begged God to bring someone who knew The Truth into my life. He answered me quickly. Thank God.
 
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lsume

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I can see why you are taking that approach. Certainly, one could say they believe one thing and not really mean it. The Greek word that "hypocrite" comes from simply means "an actor," i.e. one who plays a part. So, yes, there might be those who say one thing only to put on the façade of being what they say.

I am more interested in cases where one truly believes p (whatever p might be), and yet their actions, behavior, responses, seem to indicate they believe otherwise. Take the first example I gave. He isn't trying to act like the skywalk is safe, he truly believes it is. In other words, he's not "playing the part" of one who thinks it's safe. He believes it is safe. And yet, when he walks out on it he is afraid.
Your topic has caused me to take inventory about my beliefs. Christ teaches all of His brethren directly. I was called about 30 years ago to the day. God The father called me and put me in a fast. It’s a long story but I can assure you that I knew little to nothing about fasting. By far, the most exciting day of my life was when Christ opened my eyes and spoke to me. Sometime later that year I was born again. Something that I think you might be very interested in based on what I’ve read. Look up the Ancient Greek definition for apocalypse. Please pray for Christ to open your understanding. The first use of the word “visitation” in the KJV of The Bible can be found in Numbers 16:29. Please read the entire story surrounding the use of that word.
 
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My question concerns those instances where someone states they believe p, and yet their behavior indicates they believe not-p. How are we to understand these instances?

In each example let's be generous and assume each person believes they believe what they say they believe. :)

Example 1
Jim is at the Grand Canyon and says, "I believe it is perfectly safe to walk out on the skywalk." However, when he walks out on it he begins to shake, trembling with fear. Does Jim believe the skywalk is perfectly safe, or no?

Example 2
Betty says that she trusts her boyfriend, Bill. And yet, when Bill is not around she often worries that he is acting in an untrustworthy manner. Does Betty believe Bill is trustworthy, or no?

Example 3
Elmer states that he believes all races are equal. And yet, Elmer exhibits implicit bias in his everyday interactions with those of races other than his own. Does Elmer believe all races are equal, or no?

example 1: Hard to answer because there are so many factors that can go into him suddenly choking. It's like when a person has practiced and managed to get all forms of preparation down but when it comes to the stage he just blanks out. It's also possible that he was bluffing himself.
Maybe he thought all this time it was safe but he still has a acrophobia and just the thought of being high suspends all forms of belief towards the bridge.

example 2: no she doesn't. She is actually very clingy and emotionally dependent. Maybe Bill did something in the past.. but no, she doesn't trust him or has doubts about herself.

example 3: hard to answer as well. What do you mean by bias? There are races in the USA who prefer to be around their own more they just are not used to being outside their cultural zones. That doesn't mean they think all races deserve to be treated equally.


Percival says that he believes he is forgiven by the grace given in Jesus Christ. And yet, Percival experiences fears that he is unforgiven. Does Percival believe that he is forgiven, or no?

Theological example 2
Fred, a professing Christian, says that he believes Christians should help the poor. And yet, Fred makes no effort to help the poor. Does Fred believe Christians should help the poor, or no?

1. No.
2. He does believe but he is lazy. He believes but he isn't as emotionally invested in it and has 0 passion for his views. Many christians are like this btw, especially with helping homeless people.

Finally, the theological examples highlight one of the problems with assuming that Christian faith is simply a matter of mere belief. In Theological Example 1, the issue may be that Percival has a mere belief that forgiveness is given through Jesus Christ, but not the requisite trust that such grace has been given to him.

What are your thoughts? Do we believe things we don't believe? If so, how can one be mistaken about one's own beliefs? Or, do we really believe what we think we believe, but not as much as we might have assumed? What are some other possibilities?

As far as the theological examples go: Is faith a matter of mere belief, or is there something else entailed in faith, such as trust? Does one's beliefs need to be commensurate with one's behavior? Why or why not?

This is why us Catholics have always believed in faith with works. Just like example 2. He believes it but the lack of work does make the other person skeptical. I mean, lets say this guy really does believe but when a homeless person is face to face with him, Fred doesn't do anything... would the homeless person care about his beliefs? Faith + works shows it's validity is confirmed just by real life evidence.
 
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Nancy Hale

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I think you are hitting on something important. Fear has come up a number of times. It seems that fear is often one of the main reasons that keeps us from acting on what we believe to be true. Does that sound right?
Yes and no. It's so hard to precisely define things, isn't it? I used to just give money to homeless people, then someone told me it was hurting them to do so; they'd just by drugs or alcohol and they would die and it would be my fault. Ouch!
So fear and questioning, or maybe listening to the world or a spirit of confusion. What I settled on was God's word; give to those who ask. If they ask for money, and I have it, I give them money. If they ask for a ride and I have the time, I give them a ride. My older sister is terrified of homeless people, so she bought a dozen sleeping bags and dropped them off at the gospel mission for them to pass out. She had fear, but helped at the same time. Her helping looks different than my helping. I want to look them in the eye and tell them God loves them.
I'm getting my reward now and my sister's are being stored up in heaven. Our fears are different, but neither let's them stop us, but if ppl observed and listened to my sister talk they'd most likely incorrectly judge that she doesn't help the poor.
We humans have things so messed up! The world today would have us believe that "believing" in God is merely believing He exists. Clearly OT pagans believed god/s existed. Job worried about his kids, he offered sacrifices for them, so worry is not lack of faith. God clearly thought Job was full of faith. The "right" kind of anything; fear, belief, worry, judgment, love - it has to come from God, how He understands it (not that I think understanding a thing is something God does or has need of, just a lack of a better word on my part)
The crux of it is that Christianity can't even agree on what belief is, so how can we judge action? (I count as Christianity, all those who believe in the trinity)
 
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