Why hasn't Jesus come back yet?

witness12 · Feb 19, 2020

mindlight said:
What are you trying to say? Is this relevant to the thread?

Absolutely. It answers when Christ returns in His coming.

throughfiierytrial · Feb 19, 2020

parousia70 said:
Seems plain to me. The people were getting restless in those last days, Scoffing at what they felt was a delay... Peter was saying "hold on, it's near, God is being patient, you should be too..."

Peter is NOT saying, Its going to be 2000+ more years so you should give up hoping for it to come in your lifetime.

Note How Peter reverses the phrase:
"with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

He is not saying the same thing Twice,..
With the lord, one thousand years can seem like on day, AND One day can Seem like 1000 years... Both opposite realities are true with the lord..

He can make 1000 earth years seem like one day to Him, AND He can make one earth Day Seem like 1000 years to Him.

God is TimeLESS..but, contrary to many claims here, He knows how to tell time correctly, and is perfectly capable to accurately communicate it's passing to human beings in a way that human beings can understand and apply to their lives.

Time is For Man.

I agree with your explanation of the Peter passages. He says, prior to this...scoffers will come scoffing saying where is this coming he promised (paraphrased). The words "scoffers will come" are speaking in the future tense and so these passages can be applied in that light. They are as true today as they were then.
The Last and Great Day of the Lord, as you already are aware through the Scripture readings, is unknown to us. To wait requires faith.
As I already posted somewhere on this thread the faithful waited a much longer time to see the realization of the birth of the promised Messiah and the language unfolding the promise was somewhat cryptic.

eleos1954 · Feb 19, 2020

mindlight said:
After 2000 years why are we still waiting for the return of the King of Kings?

It was a clear expectation of the early church that Jesus would return soon. Peter even made a special effort to debunk the intellectual pagans and false teachers of his time who suggested that this was a lie and that there would be no return. In 2 Peter 1:16-21 Peter used, as the basis of his refutation of this false accusation, the experience of James, John and Peter of the Transfiguration on the Holy Mountain (where the Messiah is expected to return). Because they had seen the glorified Christ they knew that He would one day return in that same glory as the King of Kings. No one on this earth had a comparable majesty , so only Jesus could be the King we waited for. The martyrs went to their deaths in the various persecutions of the Roman empire under Nero, Domitian and later Trajan and Marcus Aurelius singing the praises of this King and in the expectation that their King, the Returning King Jesus, would soon hold corrupt demonically inspired authorities to account and that the Emperor would get his comeuppance. But 2000 years later we are still waiting. It is the strongest prophecy of the Christian church, it is the overwhelming expectation of the church, ensuring that we live lives in expectation of our final review by the returning King. It is written into our creeds.

"He will return in glory to judge the Living and the Dead and his Kingdom will have no end"

But where is he, what possible reason could there be for keeping his bride waiting so long?

There is more prophesy to come to pass yet ... how long that takes? We don't know.

parousia70 · Feb 19, 2020

Gideons300 said:
In Revelation 3, Jesus said to the church at Sardis:

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent.

If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:1-5

Are you saying Jesus failed to Fulfill His Promise to come as a thief the Church at Sardis?

parousia70 · Feb 19, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
40 years would not have been enough time for the mockers and scoffer to deride the reality of the glorious return of Christ.

Read the Book of Jude.

parousia70 · Feb 19, 2020

claninja said:
God can tell us when this are far away
Daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been spoken is true. Now you must seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”

God can tell us when they are near.
Revelation 22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near.

If things are not actually near, God can tell us they are for a distant future, like He did in Daniel.

excellent observation.

In Daniels vision God says it is for the Distant Future - it's 500 years from Daniel to Christ.
And yet we are asked to believe that, While God Calls 2500 years "far away" He Calls 2000 years "near, shortly and about to take place"??

Such a hermeneutic renders both terms near and far meaningless and undecipherable.
Such is untenable. and totally unsupported in scripture.

Gideons300 · Feb 19, 2020

parousia70 said:
Are you saying Jesus failed to Fulfill His Promise to come as a thief the Church at Sardis?

Not at all. I am saying the messages to the churches were more than messages to specific churches. they were messages to THE church.

He who hath ears, let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.

The seven letters are in essence a picture into the heart of God, letting His people know what is truly important to the Father.

blessings,

Gids

parousia70 · Feb 19, 2020

Gideons300 said:
Not at all. I am saying the messages to the churches were more than messages to specific churches. they were messages to THE church.

Well, Pastorally applicable to the whole Church perhaps, but not prophetically.

Jesus Promised actual air breathing Blood Pumping people alive at the first century Churh at Sardis that if THEY back THEN did Not watch, His coming would overtake THEM, back THEN as a Thief.

If He failed to follow through on that Promise to come to THEM, then Christ is a false prophet, and we know that is impossible.

I glad to hear you believe He did not fail to fulfill His coming to them back then.

sovereigngrace · Feb 19, 2020

parousia70 said:
Read the Book of Jude.

Scripture?

parousia70 · Feb 19, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Scripture?

Yes. The Book of Jude is Scripture, and documents the previously prophesied Last days apostasy, falling away and scoffing as it was unfolding right then.

sovereigngrace · Feb 19, 2020

parousia70 said:
Yes. The Book of Jude is Scripture, and documents the previously prophesied Last days apostasy, falling away and scoffing as it was unfolding right then.

40 years does not fit the whole 1 day/thousand years instruction. In fact, it totally negates the Preterist argument. 2 Peter 3 is teaching that a long time with us is a short time with the Lord.

You notably did not quote any given passage in Jude because it is speaking about the end time scoffers before Christ's future return. Your fixation with Titus and AD70 causes you to miss what Scripture is actually speaking about.

claninja · Feb 19, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Really?

When you constantly cherry-pick your definitions then it allows your doctrine to fit.

No need to cherry pick here, especially when strong's defines it as near in place or time. Thayer's lexicon even has the "eggizo" of matthew 24:33 and revelation 22:10 as meaning literally "imminent and soon to come to pass". So I'm not really sure where you are deriving a polar opposite definition from.

Eggizo

strong's: near (in place or time)

Thayer's Lexicon

2. of Time; concerning things imminent and soon to come to pass: Matthew 24:32; Matthew 26:18; Mark 13:28; Luke 21:30, 31; John 2:13; John 6:4; John 7:2; John 11:55; Revelation 1:3; Revelation 22:10; of the near advent of persons: ὁ κύριος ἐγγύς, of Christ's return from heaven, Philippians 4:5 (in another sense, of God in Psalm 144:18 (); with the addition ἐπί θύραις, at the door, Matthew 24:33; Mark 13:29; ἐγγύς κατάρας, near to being cursed, Hebrews 6:8; ἀφανισμοῦ, soon to vanish, Hebrews 8:13.

sovereigngrace said:
The Preterist rigid understanding of genea is a classic case-in-point.

Not one Bible translations renders Genea as anything other than generation.

Additionally, Thayer's Lexicon defines the genea used in Matthew 24:34 as specifically being in regards to a whole multitude of men living at the same time.

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).

sovereigngrace said:
The prime meaning of approach in English is: "to draw closer to." It is totally relative to the subject matter

To "approach" can mean to be extremely far away, it all depends on the subject? What english rule is that coming from? sounds made up.

But Let's use your made up rule. God doesn't actually draw near to us, when draw near to him?
James 4:8 Draw near (eggizo) to God, and he will draw near (eggizo) to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

It seems your rule of "approaching" meaning far away in "human understanding" is found in a vacuum, as you only apply it to the 2nd coming, ESPECIALLY, when God can tell us when things are literally far away as in Daniel 8.

sovereigngrace said:
Preterists find themselves in the camp of the scoffers mocking the reality of, and the supposed delay in, the glorious climactic return of Christ.

Preterist's don't believe in a delay in the coming of the Lord, so this doesn't really make any sense.

sovereigngrace said:
What is the focus here (and that of the rest of the NT)? Is it Titus or Jesus?

The focus is the end of the old covenant system, which had been made obsolete at the cross, and the resurrection.

It's interesting that Peter talks of 2 heavens and earths, 1 before the flood, that was destroyed, and 1 after the flood, that was "now".

"For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now",

sovereigngrace said:
What is the promise? Is it AD70 or the final climactic return of Christ, which includes the general resurrection/judgment of the living and the dead and the introduction of the new perfect eternal state?

The coming judgment of Christ on Israel in 66-70AD resulted in the dead being caught up to heaven to forever be with the Lord.

Even as you agree, believer's upon physical death now go home to be with the Lord.

sovereigngrace · Feb 19, 2020

claninja said:
The coming judgment of Christ on Israel in 66-70AD resulted in the dead being caught up to heaven to forever be with the Lord.

Where does it teach that? That is Full Preterism. That is heresy.

1Ti 1:19-20: "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."

What was their great error?

2Ti 2:17-19: "And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

Like you, Hymenaeus and Philetus argued that the resurrection had already occurred. This was creating confusion with the Church. Confusion is not off the Lord, but the enemy. The fact is: the resurrection will occur at the second coming!

That is why Bible believing Christians reject Preterism as heresy!

throughfiierytrial · Feb 19, 2020

parousia70 said:
Are you saying Jesus failed to Fulfill His Promise to come as a thief the Church at Sardis?

The idea behind that statement is to WATCH! Jesus' return will be a surprise just as a thief surprises the household members of the home he breaks into. Therefore no backsliding is safe!

claninja · Feb 19, 2020

parousia70 said:
excellent observation.

In Daniels vision God says it is for the Distant Future - it's 500 years from Daniel to Christ.
And yet we are asked to believe that, While God Calls 2500 years "far away" He Calls 2000 years "near, shortly and about to take place"??

Such a hermeneutic renders both terms near and far meaningless and undecipherable.
Such is untenable. and totally unsupported in scripture.

Indeed. It would seem that futurists only regard near/at hand/quickly as polar opposite when it comes to the 2nd coming. In all other situations they agree it means exactly what it is defined as: near/at hand/quickly. I find that strange.

sovereigngrace · Feb 19, 2020

claninja said:
No need to cherry pick here, especially when strong's defines it as near in place or time. Thayer's lexicon even has the "eggizo" of matthew 24:33 and revelation 22:10 as meaning literally "imminent and soon to come to pass". So I'm not really sure where you are deriving a polar opposite definition from.

You are expert at totally ignoring each rebuttal. I will repost the avoided post. Your constant avoidance is testimony to the error of your position:

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

What is the focus here (and that of the rest of the NT)? Is it Titus or Jesus?

What is the promise? Is it AD70 or the final climactic return of Christ, which includes the general resurrection/judgment of the living and the dead and the introduction of the new perfect eternal state?

Tra Phull · Feb 19, 2020

The elements have not melted with fervent heat yet - one major thing about a separation of Full and Partial Preterism, and I still kind of resent all Peterists being lumped together - C.F. recognizes a difference - always has.

claninja · Feb 19, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Where does it teach that? That is Full Preterism. That is heresy.

Scripture teaches that Jesus would come immediately after the tribulation of 1st century Jerusalem. This is why Partial preterists believe that the coming of Jesus in 70AD was a coming in judgment. It is at this time, he would gather is elect.

Mark 13:24-27 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

sovereigngrace said:
What was their great error?

Stating that the resurrection had occurred prior to the coming of Christ. and that there would be no future resurrection. Preterism does not believe this.

sovereigngrace said:
Like you, Hymenaeus and Philetus argued that the resurrection had already occurred. This was creating confusion with the Church. Confusion is not off the Lord, but the enemy. The fact is: the resurrection will occur at the second coming!

That is why Bible believing Christians reject Preterism as heresy!

Incorrect. I do not believe the resurrection and ascension of believers to heaven occurs PRIOR to the 2nd coming. Additionally, I believe in a future resurrection and ascension to heaven of believers. I do not believe there is no future resurrection as is believed to be taught by Hymenaeus and Philetus.

Are there any theological beliefs that teach, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, that believers ascend to heaven PRIOR to the 2nd coming of Christ? Kind of sounds like futurism to me......

claninja · Feb 19, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You are expert at totally ignoring each rebuttal. I will repost the avoided post. Your constant avoidance is testimony to the error of your position:

Really?

When you constantly cherry-pick your definitions then it allows your doctrine to fit. The Preterist rigid understanding of genea is a classic case-in-point. The prime meaning of approach in English is: "to draw closer to." It is totally relative to the subject matter. Christ's return is indeed getting closer or approaching.

Preterists find themselves in the camp of the scoffers mocking the reality of, and the supposed delay in, the glorious climactic return of Christ.

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

What is the focus here (and that of the rest of the NT)? Is it Titus or Jesus?

What is the promise? Is it AD70 or the final climactic return of Christ, which includes the general resurrection/judgment of the living and the dead and the introduction of the new perfect eternal state?

That's the pot calling the kettle black, So, Which part did I specifically avoid in post 217, SG?

Tra Phull · Feb 19, 2020

I am classed with Full Preterists - which is WRONG - I am a Partial.

I have been called HERETIC - which is WRONG also.

I am a Nicene Christian - I believe it is against CF rules to call me a heretic, or no Christian.

I await an apology.

Why hasn't Jesus come back yet?

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