The Saint Steve Highlights of Christ Triumphant

Saint Steven · Feb 17, 2020

"Surely some righteous indignation is called for against those who construct a sentence of endless damnation against countless millions of God's children (very largely) on the strength of phrases like the above, whose meaning is so completely misapprehended Let us examine further. Not alone is the sin of Israel "incurable," but so is the wound of Samaria - Mic. i. 9. And yet this "incurable" wound is to be cured, for the captivity of Samaria is to be turned again.- Ezek. xvi. 53 Nor is this all. Sodom and Gomorrha suffer the vengeance of "eternal fire " - Jude, and are to be a "perpetual" desolation - Zeph. ii. 9, and yet the "perpetual" desolation is to end in restoration - Ez. xvi. 53; and this temporary meaning is constantly that of "perpetual" in Scripture: e.g., Lev. iii. 17, xxiv. 9, xxv. 34; Jer. xxxiii. 40. So, too, Ammon is to be a "perpetual" desolation - Zeph. ii. 9; is to fall and rise no more - Jer. xxv. 21, 27; and yet it is to be restored - Jer. xlix. 6. And so Elam is to fall and rise no more - Jer. xxv. 27, yet in the latter days it is to be restored, ch. xlix. 39. The same is true of Egypt: compare Jer. xxv. 19, 27, with Ezek. xxix. 13, &c. And Moab is to be destroyed, and yet restored. - Jer. xlviii. 4, 47.

Now why is all this? Why in the Prophets do threats most awful, and hopes most radiant, jostle one against another? Why do Mercy and Terror, Despair and Joy, alternate, as the portion of the same persons? Why this seeming chaos? Not because God has conflicting purposes, but precisely because He has no conflicting purposes: threats and hopes are blended because threats and hopes serve the same end. Nay, were the threats of Scripture still more awful than any recorded, were they as clear as they are so often figurative and obscure; and were we stripped of most (or all) of the direct promises of universal salvation, still we might have hope, knowing that "God is Love," and that with God "all things are possible."

"WHOSOEVER SHALL SAY, YOU FOOL, SHALL BE IN DANGER OF HELLFIRE." S. Matt. v. 22.

The popular interpretation reduces these words to an absurdity. "It is incredible that to call a man a fool should be so much a worse crime than to call him Raca, that, whereas for the one offense men are to be brought before a court of justice, for the other they are to be damned to an everlasting torment." - Salv. Mund. The hellfire of this passage is the fire of "Gehenna."

"FEAR HIM WHICH IS ABLE TO DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL." S. Matt. x. 28.

These words point to God's power rather than to His intention. They say God is able to destroy soul and body; they do not say that God will do so. And if they do point to an intention, those who read what has been said above on "death," "destruction," (ch. vi.) will readily perceive how accordant with the usage of Scripture it is to make destruction and death a path to life; see pp. 9-10, 149, 184-90.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

Saint Steven · Feb 18, 2020

"FOR WHAT IS A MAN PROFITED, IF HE SHALL GAIN THE WHOLE WORLD, AND LOSE HIS OWN SOUL ?" (life). S. Matt. xvi. 26.

This certainly shows that a man by persisting in sin may lose his soul, a loss greater than that of the whole world. But (I.) how does this loss teach endless torment, or endless sin? (To be shut out of God's presence for an age would far overbalance the enjoyment of the whole world for a lifetime.) Or how (II.) does it prove anything against a final restitution, against Christ's seeking and finding the lost soul?

"THE DAMNATION OF HELL." S. Matt. xxiii. 33.

No comment is needed here, but to reinstate the true rendering-" the judgment of Gehenna."

"THAT YOUR WHOLE BODY SHOULD BE CAST INTO HELL." S. Matt. v. 29,30, and xviii. 8,9.

These passages are so similar that they may be considered together, and may be compared with S. Mark ix. 43-50, where a full comment is given. The "hell" of the text is "Gehenna, " and in ch. xviii. 8. 9, "hellfire" is the fire of Gehenna, and everlasting fire is aeonian fire.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

Der Alte · Feb 18, 2020

Saint Steven said:
"FOR WHAT IS A MAN PROFITED, IF HE SHALL GAIN THE WHOLE WORLD, AND LOSE HIS OWN SOUL ?" (life). S. Matt. xvi. 26.
This certainly shows that a man by persisting in sin may lose his soul, a loss greater than that of the whole world. But (I.) how does this loss teach endless torment, or endless sin? (To be shut out of God's presence for an age would far overbalance the enjoyment of the whole world for a lifetime.) Or how (II.) does it prove anything against a final restitution, against Christ's seeking and finding the lost soul?

Every verse in the Bible does not have to state a point for it to be valid.

"THE DAMNATION OF HELL." S. Matt. xxiii. 33.
No comment is needed here, but to reinstate the true rendering-" the judgment of Gehenna."
"THAT YOUR WHOLE BODY SHOULD BE CAST INTO HELL." S. Matt. v. 29,30, and xviii. 8,9.
These passages are so similar that they may be considered together, and may be compared with S. Mark ix. 43-50, where a full comment is given. The "hell" of the text is "Gehenna, " and in ch. xviii. 8. 9, "hellfire" is the fire of Gehenna, and everlasting fire is aeonian fire.

…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both שׁאולsheol and גי־הנם/gehinnom. translated as "hades" and "Gehenna" in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

/…..Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism

FineLinen · Feb 18, 2020

" 'The word by itself, whether adjective or substantive, never means endless." - Canon FARRAR "The conception of eternity, in the Semitic languages, is that of a long duration and series of ages" -Rev. J. S. BLUNT - Dict. of Theology.

"'Tis notoriously known," says Bishop RUST, "that the Jews, whether writing in Hebrew or Greek, do by olam (the Hebrew word corresponding to aion), and aion mean any remarkable period and duration, whether it be of life, or dispensation, or polity."

"The word aion is never used in Scripture, or anywhere else, in the sense of endlessness (vulgarly called eternity, it always meant, both in Scripture and out, a period of time; else how could it have a plural - how could you talk of the aeons and aeons of aeons as the Scripture does ?"

- C. KINGSLEY. So the secular games, celebrated every century were called "eternal" by the Greeks. - See HUET, Orig. ii. p. 162. "

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

FineLinen · Feb 18, 2020

Dear Saint: The disciple most intimate with the Master defines aionios life precisely.

Both aionios kolasis & aionios zoe are NOT duration in scope but both a calibre of both!

Much thanks again for the time you have taken to consolidate a remarkable book by a priest of God Thomas Allin.

This IS aionios zoe that we may know You...

Der Alte · Feb 18, 2020

FineLinen said:
.....

FineLinen said:
" 'The word by itself, whether adjective or substantive, never means endless." - Canon FARRAR "The conception of eternity, in the Semitic languages, is that of a long duration and series of ages" -Rev. J. S. BLUNT - Dict. of Theology.
"'Tis notoriously known," says Bishop RUST, "that the Jews, whether writing in Hebrew or Greek, do by olam (the Hebrew word corresponding to aion), and aion mean any remarkable period and duration, whether it be of life, or dispensation, or polity."
"The word aion is never used in Scripture, or anywhere else, in the sense of endlessness (vulgarly called eternity, it always meant, both in Scripture and out, a period of time; else how could it have a plural - how could you talk of the aeons and aeons of aeons as the Scripture does ?"
- C. KINGSLEY. So the secular games, celebrated every century were called "eternal" by the Greeks. - See HUET, Orig. ii. p. 162. "...

This is the deceptive, evasive ploy of all UR-ites when proven wrong, find something, anything, written by somebody, somewhere that supports their assumptions/presuppositions. Perhaps you can show me how any of these quotes conclusively show that my study is wrong? Nothing but their unsupported opinions which being unsupported are no more compelling than that of some homeless person on the street.
Abraham Lincoln when he was criticized for how he was conducting the civil war said,

If I were to try to read, much less answer, all the attacks made on me, this shop might as well be closed for any other business. I do the very best I know how - the very best I can; and I mean to keep doing so until the end. If the end brings me out all right, what's said against me won't amount to anything. If the end brings me out wrong, ten angels swearing I was right would make no difference.

I have shown conclusively that aionios means eternal and aion means eternity. That words are sometimes used hyperbolically does not change their inherent meaning. Oh, incedentally I did a similar study on the Hebrew word "olam."

1. Apposition in the stricter sense is the collocation of two substantives in the same case in order to define more exactly (or to complete) the one by the other, and, as a rule (see, however, below, under g), the former by the latter. Apposition in Hebrew (as in the other Semitic languages[1]) is by no means confined to those cases in which it is used in English or in the classical languages. It is not infrequently found when either the subordination of one substantive to the other or some more circumstantial kind of epexegetical addition would be expected.
Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar (1909) edited and enlarged Miheim Gesenius by Emil Kautzsch, translated by Arthur Emnest Cowley

Exodus 3:15
(15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “unto all generations.” “age(s)” is not equivalent to “unto all generations,”“eternal” is.

Psalms 119:44
(44) So shall I keep thy law continually for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “continually.” “age(s)” is not equivalent to “continually,” “eternal” is.

Psalms 21:4
(4) He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad][/quote]
In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “length of days”. “age(s)” is not equivalent to length of days, “eternal is.

Psalms 45:17
(17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee [עולם/olam] and ever:[עד/ad]

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “all generations,””age(s)” is not equivalent to “all generations”, “eternal” is.

Ezekiel 27:36
(36) The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt be any more. [עד־עולם/ad-olam]

In this vs. “olam” is contrasted with “never shall be”, “age(s)” is not the opposite of “never shall be,” “eternal” is.

Ezekiel 28:19
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. [עד־עולם/ad-olam]

In this vs. “olam” is contrasted with “never shall be”, “age(s)” is not the opposite of “never shall be,” “eternal” is.

Psa 33:11
(11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, [ עולם] the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “to all generations,””age(s)” is not equivalent to “to all generations,” “eternal” is.

Psa 146:10
(10) The LORD shall reign for ever, Psa 33:11
(11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, [ עולם] the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “to all generations,””age(s)” is not equivalent to “to all generations,” “eternal” is.

Psa 37:28
(28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: [ עולם] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “unto all generations,””age(s)” is not equivalent to “unto all generations,” “eternal” is.

Ecc 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

In this vs. nothing can be added or taken away from God acts. “age(s)“ is not equivalent to “nothing can be added or taken away from God acts” “eternal” is.

Isa 51:6
(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “shall not be abolished”, “age(s)” is not equivalent to “shall not be abolished,” “eternal” is.

Isa 51:8
(8) For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my salvation from generation to generation.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “generation to generation,”(age(s)” is not equivalent to “generation to generation,” “eternal” is.

Dan 4:34
(34) And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “from generation to generation,”(age(s)” is not equivalent to “from generation to generation,” “eternal” is.

Dan 4:3
(3) How great are his signs, how mighty his wonders! His kingdom is an eternal [ עולם] kingdom; his dominion endures from generation to generation.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “from generation to generation,”(age(s)” is not equivalent to “from generation to generation,” “eternal” is.

Dan 7:14
(14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed,” “age(s)” is not equivalent to “will not pass away, never be destroyed”, “eternal” is.

Jer 23:40
(40) I will bring on you everlasting disgrace [ עולם] —everlasting shame [ עולם] that will not be forgotten."

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “will not be forgotten,””eternal” is.

Jer 50:5
(5) They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting [ עולם] covenant that will not be forgotten.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “will not be forgotten,””age(s)” is not equivalent to “will not be forgotten,” ”eternal” is.

Hab 1:12
(12) LORD, are you not from everlasting? [ עולם] My God, my Holy One, you will never die. You, LORD, have appointed them to execute judgment; you, my Rock, have ordained them to punish.

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “will never die,””age(s)” is not equivalent to “will never die,” ”eternal” is.

BNR32FAN · Feb 18, 2020

Der Alter said:
I have never been shown any Greek grammar which states "the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God." There is no such grammar rule.
Let us indeed consider the "TRUE" meaning of the words aion and aionios.
But first in 1896 E.W. Bullinger wrote a book titled "Figures of Figures of Speech Used in the Bible." .....In this book Bullinger identified more that 200 figures of speech used in the Bible such as hyperbole and epezeuxis, reduplication of words for emphasis, in the Bible..Bullinger, pp. 189,194).
.....An example of epezeuxis can be found in Gen 2:17 where God told Adam "In the day that you eat of the forbidden fruit you shall surely die." In Hebrew that is muth t'muth, "dying you shall die." There are no superlatives in Hebrew so to emphasize a word it is doubled as in Gen 2:17.

284 FIGURES OF SPEECH. Bullinger
in A.V. and R.V. this is rendered, “The Lord your God is God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God” etc.
1 Kings V111. 27.- The heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee”: i.e., the highest heaven.”
Ecc. i. L etc. Vanity of vanities”: i.e., the greatest vanity.
Song Sol. i. I.—” The song of songs,” i.e., the most beautiful or excellent song.
Dan. ii. 37. Ezek. xxvi. 17.—” A king of kings”: i.e.. the most mighty king.
Dan. ii. 47.—” God of gods.: i.e.. the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
Dan. viii. 25..—” The Prince or princes”: i.e., the most powerful Prince.
Hos. x. 15. So shall Bethel do unto you because of your great wickedness.’. The figure is here translated. and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil.”
Micah ii. 4.—” A 1amentation of 1amentations,. i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Hos. x. 15. So shall Bethel do unto you because of your great wickedness.’. The figure is here translated. and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil.”
Micah ii. 4.—” A 1amentation of 1amentations,. i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Phil. 1ii. . “.A Hebrew or the Hebrews," i.e., a thorough Hebrew. See this verse under Asyndeton.
I Tim. vi. 15.—.”The King or kings, and Lord of lords." Compare Rev. xvi. 14 and iz. 16.
Rev. i. 6.—” The ages of the ages.. i.e., to the remotest age, for ever and ever.

I’ve been thru this with these brothers on this subject before quoting Iranaeus from Adversus Haereses Where Iranaeus clearly states that the punishment of those who reject God is not merely temporal but eternal (aionios).

2. For as, in the New Testament, that faith of men [to be placed] in God has been increased, receiving in addition [to what was already revealed] the Son of God, that man too might be a partaker of God; so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, Matthew 25:41 these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity, Matthew 25:34 these do receive the kingdom for ever, and make constant advance in it; since there is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong,) and has judged those who are judged, that is, those who forget God, and are blasphemous, and transgressors of His word.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 28

I’m confident that Iranaeus being a second century Greek bishop understood the correct usage for aionios and to say that the punishment is not merely temporal but for an age (for a limited time) doesn’t make sense.

FineLinen · Feb 18, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
I’m confident that Iranaeus being a second century Greek bishop understood the correct usage for aionios and to say that the punishment is not merely temporal but for an age (for a limited time) doesn’t make sense.

Dear BNR: It is wonderful you are convinced Iranaeus from the 2nd Century understood what aionios means. My suggestion to you is go back to St. John who leaned on the Master's chest for a precise definition in 9 (nine) remarkable words regarding aionios.

The Father of all father's punishes with one object, and only one object as the outcome!

Change & transformation NOT mindless torture!

Der Alte · Feb 18, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
I’ve been thru this with these brothers on this subject before quoting Iranaeus from Adversus Haereses Where Iranaeus clearly states that the punishment of those who reject God is not merely temporal but eternal (aionios).
2. For as, in the New Testament, that faith of men [to be placed] in God has been increased, receiving in addition [to what was already revealed] the Son of God, that man too might be a partaker of God; so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, Matthew 25:41 these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity, Matthew 25:34 these do receive the kingdom for ever, and make constant advance in it; since there is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong,) and has judged those who are judged, that is, those who forget God, and are blasphemous, and transgressors of His word.
St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 28
I’m confident that Iranaeus being a second century Greek bishop understood the correct usage for aionios and to say that the punishment is not merely temporal but for an age (for a limited time) doesn’t make sense.

Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp who was a student of John. Here is another relevant quote from Irenaeus.

Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book V. Chap. XXVII.
1. [also] at the time of the end, to order the reapers to collect first the tares together, and bind them in bundles, and burn them with unquenchable fire, but to gather up the wheat into the barn; (Mat_13:30) and to call the lambs into the kingdom prepared for them, but to send the goats into everlasting fire, which has been prepared by His Father for the devil and his angels. (Mat_25:33, etc.) And why is this? Has the Word come for the ruin and for the resurrection of many? For the ruin, certainly, of those who do not believe Him, to whom also He has threatened a greater damnation in the judgment-day than that of Sodom and Gomorrah; (Luk_10:12) but for the resurrection of believers, and those who do the will of His Father in heaven.

FineLinen · Feb 19, 2020

Admitting, then, the usual reference of aionios to time, we note in the word a tendency to rise above this idea, to denote quality, rather than quantity, to indicate the true, the spiritual, in opposition to the unreal, or the earthly. In this sense the eternal is now and here.

Thus "eternal" punishment is one thing, and "everlasting" punishment a very different thing, and so it is that our Revisers have substituted for "everlasting " the word "eternal" in every passage in the New Testament, where aionios is the original word .

Further, if we take the term strictly, eternal punishment is impossible, for the "eternal" in strictness has no beginning.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

Saint Steven · Feb 19, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
I’m confident that Iranaeus being a second century Greek bishop understood the correct usage for aionios and to say that the punishment is not merely temporal but for an age (for a limited time) doesn’t make sense.

Why doesn't it make sense?
How long would you have to be in hell before you got the message? Ten seconds maybe? Yet you think that is not enough, even a WHOLE age is not enough. You WANT them to burn for all eternity. Why?

Saint Steven · Feb 19, 2020

"AND THESE SHALL GO AWAY INTO EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, BUT THE RIGHTEOUS INTO LIFE ETERNAL." S. Matt. xxv. 46.

This text, if fairly translated, seems to require an interpretation quite distinct from that of the popular theology, and opposed to it. (a) "Everlasting" and "eternal" represent aionios, and mean "of or belonging to an age " - aeonian. (b) If a punishment absolutely endless were intended it seems unaccountable that a word should be used which habitually does not mean endless, but the opposite. (c) The word translated punishment means pruning, i.e., corrective punishment, and should be so rendered. (d) So that which is threatened seems the opposite of our popular hell; it is a corrective process, "proper to the age " - or "ages." (e) And of this beneficent purpose there is a hint, often unnoticed, in the term applied to those on the left hand, it is properly "kids" or "kidlings," a diminutive, implying a certain affection. And so for the paschal offering a kid was eligible (Ex. xi. 5) equally with a lamb; and in the Catacombs the Good Shepherd is at times depicted as bearing home on His shoulders A KID, not a lamb, i.e., a GOAT, not a sheep. (f) Nor must we forget that, in Rev. xx. 11, the throne of judgment is WHITE - the sign of peace and amity. But it is said that the same word is applied to the happiness of the saved and to the punishment of the lost; and that, if it does not mean endless in the latter case, the bliss of the redeemed is rendered uncertain. I reply (I.) even were it so, we are not at liberty to mistranslate, but (II.) in fact it is certainly not so. True, the text does assign an aeonian penalty and an aeonian reward, but this leaves perfectly open the whole question of the precise duration of either. For the term aeonian is quite indefinite, it does not touch the question of the limit of time; it simply teaches that both reward and penalty go on to a future age or ages. The question what will happen after this age or ages is not raised in this passage. (g) I have in these comments made two assumptions both very doubtful, and both favorable to the traditional creed.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

Der Alte · Feb 19, 2020

Saint Steven said:
. . . If a punishment absolutely endless were intended it seems unaccountable that a word should be used which habitually does not mean endless, but the opposite. (c) The word translated punishment means pruning, i.e., corrective punishment, and should be so rendered. (d) So that which is threatened seems the opposite of our popular hell; it is a corrective process, "proper to the age " - or "ages." (e) And of this beneficent purpose there is a hint, often unnoticed, in the term applied to those on the left hand, it is properly "kids" or "kidlings," a diminutive, implying a certain affection. . . .

There are several blatant errors in this post.
1. The first sentence is a logical fallacy, argument from silence. If "eternal" was meant a different word would have been used. I have proved repeatedly that even Jesus and Paul defined aionios as eternal. Paul used aidios and aionios as synonyms in the same writing Romans 1:20 and Romans 16:26. Paul used aionios 14 times and never for anything which was not eternal.
2. In koine Greek kolasis does NOT mean "correction." The only other occurrence of "kolasis," in the NT, is 1 Jn 4:18

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment [κόλασις]. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

No correction, the one who has fear/kolasis is not corrected, not made perfect.
3. There is no "beneficient purpose" in the word "eriphion" in Matt 25:33. Here is the Strong's definition. "a kidling, that is, (generally) goat (symbolically wicked person): - goat." When used of a person it has one meaning "wicked person."

FineLinen · Feb 19, 2020

Saint Steven said:
"AND THESE SHALL GO AWAY INTO EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, BUT THE RIGHTEOUS INTO LIFE ETERNAL." S. Matt. xxv. 46.

This text, if fairly translated, seems to require an interpretation quite distinct from that of the popular theology, and opposed to it. (a) "Everlasting" and "eternal" represent aionios, and mean "of or belonging to an age " - aeonian. (b) If a punishment absolutely endless were intended it seems unaccountable that a word should be used which habitually does not mean endless, but the opposite. (c) The word translated punishment means pruning, i.e., corrective punishment, and should be so rendered. (d) So that which is threatened seems the opposite of our popular hell; it is a corrective process, "proper to the age " - or "ages." (e) And of this beneficent purpose there is a hint, often unnoticed, in the term applied to those on the left hand, it is properly "kids" or "kidlings," a diminutive, implying a certain affection. And so for the paschal offering a kid was eligible (Ex. xi. 5) equally with a lamb; and in the Catacombs the Good Shepherd is at times depicted as bearing home on His shoulders A KID, not a lamb, i.e., a GOAT, not a sheep. (f) Nor must we forget that, in Rev. xx. 11, the throne of judgment is WHITE - the sign of peace and amity. But it is said that the same word is applied to the happiness of the saved and to the punishment of the lost; and that, if it does not mean endless in the latter case, the bliss of the redeemed is rendered uncertain. I reply (I.) even were it so, we are not at liberty to mistranslate, but (II.) in fact it is certainly not so. True, the text does assign an aeonian penalty and an aeonian reward, but this leaves perfectly open the whole question of the precise duration of either. For the term aeonian is quite indefinite, it does not touch the question of the limit of time; it simply teaches that both reward and penalty go on to a future age or ages. The question what will happen after this age or ages is not raised in this passage. (g) I have in these comments made two assumptions both very doubtful, and both favorable to the traditional creed.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

Dear S.S.: The Anglican priest Thomas Allin is in accord with the following>>>

Kolasis aionion

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure. ”

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46

Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).

Concerning the duration of kolasis (literally - corrective punishment), Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”

Scarlett’s New Testament written in 1792 has “aeonian punishment” in place of “everlasting punishment.”

“And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life.”

The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:

“And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life.”

Young’s Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:

“And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.”

Professor Young also compiled Young’s Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.

The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:

“And these last will go away ‘into aeonian punishment,’ but the righteous ‘into aeonian life.’”

The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:

"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.

The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:

“And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages.”

Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as “life of the ages,” “fire of the ages;” and in Rev. 14:6, “The good news of the ages.”

It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth’s version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.

The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:

“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”

The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word “forever” which is the same word for “eternal” which says: "Literally, for the age.”

Clementson’s The New Testament (1938) shows,

“And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life.”

Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,

“And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life.”

It should be noted that the “cutting-off” refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit.

The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word “timoria.”

The Concordant Version (1930):

“And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.”

The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:

“And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life.”

Joseph B. Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,

“and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.”

The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976

has “age-abiding correction” instead of “everlasting punishment.”

Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010) has

"And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)”.

Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King’s translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment.”

The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”

FineLinen · Feb 19, 2020

Heh Saint: Have you seen the picture of the Saviour of the all on the walls of the catacombs?

My old eyes must be in need of glasses!

Saint Steven · Feb 19, 2020

FineLinen said:
Heh Saint: Have you seen the picture of the Saviour of the all on the walls of the catacombs?

My old eyes must be in need of glasses!

Yes, I have seen that. It is a little fuzzy. (to me too)
But then sheep are like that. (a little fuzzy)

Der Alte · Feb 19, 2020

FineLinen said:
...

FineLInen said:
Dear S.S.: The Anglican priest Thomas Allin is in accord with the following>>>
Kolasis aionion
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure. ”
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).
Concerning the duration of kolasis (literally - corrective punishment), Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”
Scarlett’s New Testament written in 1792 has “aeonian punishment” in place of “everlasting punishment.”
“And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life.”
The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:
“And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life.”
Young’s Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:
“And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.”
Professor Young also compiled Young’s Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.
The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:
“And these last will go away ‘into aeonian punishment,’ but the righteous ‘into aeonian life.’”
The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.
The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:
“And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages.”
Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as “life of the ages,” “fire of the ages;” and in Rev. 14:6, “The good news of the ages.”
It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth’s version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.
The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:
“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”
The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word “forever” which is the same word for “eternal” which says: "Literally, for the age.”
Clementson’s The New Testament (1938) shows,
“And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life.”
Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,
“And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life.”
It should be noted that the “cutting-off” refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit.
The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word “timoria.”
The Concordant Version (1930):
“And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.”
The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:
“And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life.”
Joseph B. Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,
“and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.”
The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976
has “age-abiding correction” instead of “everlasting punishment.”
Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010) has
"And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)”.
Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King’s translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment.”
The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”

The opinions of alleged scholars are meaningless without supporting evidence. Etymology is not the best evidence for the current meaning of a word. Think truck in English it originally meant vegetables, not a big boxy vehicle for big, heavy loads.
Greek literature was classical NOT koine Greek. There were many changes in koine.
When Abraham Lincoln was criticized for how he conducted the civil war he said,

If I were to try to read, much less answer, all the attacks made on me, this shop might as well be closed for any other business. I do the very best I know how - the very best I can; and I mean to keep doing so until the end. If the end brings me out all right, what's said against me won't amount to anything. If the end brings me out wrong, ten angels swearing I was right would make no difference.

I've been meaning to ask you, how many of these "sources" have you actually seen and read for yourself and how many are just the standard copy/paste from UR websites?
As for Bullinger try reading it for yourself at this link. I have posted this before but all you URs ignore it like the plague because the truth blows your paper boat out of the water every time.

284 FIGURES OF SPEECH. Polyptopon
This figure, therefore, is a repetition of the same word in the same sense, but not in the same form: from the same root, but in some other termination: as that of case, mood, tense. person, degree. number, gender. etc. for emphasis.
In A.V. and R.V. this is rendered, “The Lord your God is God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God." etc.
I Kings viii. 27.— The heaven and heaven or heavens cannot contain thee”.: ie., the highest heaven.”
Ecc. i. 2. etc.- -“ Vanity of vanities”: i.e., the greatest vanity.
Song Sol i. I “The song of songs,” i.e. the most beautiful song.
Dan. i. —“ God or gods”: i.e.. the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
Dan. viii. 25.—” The Prince or princes”: i.e., the most powerful Prince.
Hos. x. 15. .”So shall Bethel do unto you because or your great wickedness.’, The figure k here translated. and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil.”
Micah ii. 4..—-” A lamentation of 1amentations,” i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Hos. x. 15. .”So shall Bethel do unto you because or your great wickedness.’, The figure k here translated. and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil.”
Micah ii. 4..—-” A lamentation of 1amentations,” i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
I Tim. vi. ii.—” The King of kings, and Lord of lords.’ Compare Rev. xvii. 14 and xix. 16..
Rev. 1. 6. - “The ages of the ages.” i.e., to the remotest age, for ever and ever.

Figures Of Speech Used In The Bible E.W. Bullinger.
Figures of speech used in the Bible: : Bullinger, E. W. (Ethelbert William), 1837-1913 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Tra Phull · Feb 19, 2020

If an aionian worm dieth not, how long does he live?

Yall's worms dieth not - who be pursuing this "forever and ever" or, rather "unto the ages of the ages"

In India there was a word "kalpa" that was an age, I dunno if it's worm died not, but it was a heckuva long time...

FineLinen · Feb 20, 2020

Tra Phull said:
If an aionian worm dieth not, how long does he live?

Yall's worms dieth not - who be pursuing this "forever and ever" or, rather "unto the ages of the ages"

In India there was a word "kalpa" that was an age, I dunno if it's worm died not, but it was a heckuva long time...

Dear Tra: The kalpa could very be in the same proximity as an age. There are ages, and then there are ages, all in the dimension of time (longer or shorter.)

Welcome to you on the Saint Steve page.

FineLinen · Feb 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Yes, I have seen that. It is a little fuzzy. (to me too)
But then sheep are like that. (a little fuzzy)

Dear Steve: The Master of the fuzzy sheep and the goats are both His. The earliest pictures of Him demonstrates that fact!

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