sovereigngrace

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That does not answer my question. even in the slightest.

Here it is again:
What do you believe the Difference between "Near and at the doors" (The reality WHEN the signs are seen) and "NOT near and at the doors" (The reality BEFORE the signs are seen)

Is there any difference in your view?

Your argument appears to say, "no, there is no discernible difference between near and not near."

But I can't say for sure... and Oddly you keep beating around the bush and refuse to say for sure yourself...

It's your position after all. You are the one who holds it, so you should be able to articulate it, no?

As has been ably said previous by Blade and Non-Prophet, our perception of time, whether brief or long, is totally relative. The swiftness or “slowness” of the time depends on one’s vantage point. While 2000 years may seem a long time to us in time and on earth, to God in heaven, it is but a brief period in the light of eternity.
 
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sovereigngrace

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That does not answer my question. even in the slightest.

Here it is again:
What do you believe the Difference between "Near and at the doors" (The reality WHEN the signs are seen) and "NOT near and at the doors" (The reality BEFORE the signs are seen)

Is there any difference in your view?

Your argument appears to say, "no, there is no discernible difference between near and not near."

But I can't say for sure... and Oddly you keep beating around the bush and refuse to say for sure yourself...

It's your position after all. You are the one who holds it, so you should be able to articulate it, no?

Psalms 90:2 says, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” He “remainest for ever” (Lamentations 5:19). He “inhabiteth eternity” (Isaiah 57:15). God shall assuredly “endure forever” (Psalms 102:12) because He is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Psalms 41:13, 90:2). God is “the same” and His “years have no end” (Psalms 102:27), His “years shall not fail” (Hebrews 1:12) “neither can the number of his years be searched out” (Job 36:26). God is not limited to time as man is, His “years are throughout all generations” (Psalms 102:24).

Moses testifies in Psalms 90:3-5, presenting the exact same thought as that offered by Peter in 2 Peter 3:8, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.” We should carefully note, the passage doesn’t say, ‘For a thousand years in thy sight are but as tomorrow which is yet to come’ as our Premillennialist brethren would prefer it to say, but rather, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.”

2 Peter 3:8 is simply telling us that time is nothing with the Lord. God lives in eternity and His perspective of time far exceeds the finite mind of man. A ‘thousand years’ in this life is but a flash in the light of eternity. Moses proceeds on in the same Psalms (Psalms 90) to describe the solemn reality of the fleetingness of time and the brevity of life, saying, “For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told” (v 9). No wonder Moses humbly prays to God, “teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom” (v 12) We should always bear in mind, the span of our years is as nothing to God. That’s why David declared, “Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee” (Psalms 39:5).
 
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Erik Nelson

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"a day is a thousand years"

There is only one resurrection. But the resurrection began in 30 AD with Christ. Continued at the beginning of the Millennium with the first. Resurrection of the Saints. And culminates in the General Resurrection at the Second Coming.

The God in Heaven has decreed that judgment will be a prolonged and protracted event as measured in Earth time, according to human time scale.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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"a day is a thousand years"

There is only one resurrection. But the resurrection began in 30 AD with Christ. Continued at the beginning of the Millennium with the first. Resurrection of the Saints. And culminates in the General Resurrection at the Second Coming.

The God in Heaven has decreed that judgment will be a prolonged and protracted event as measured in Earth time, according to human time scale.
I believe not, that is I believe what Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:27:
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Now that does not sound prolonged! There will be signs and a general degradation of the earth leading to this culmination of the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord, but He will come swiftly and in power, again...
Psalm 137:15:
He sends his command to the earth;
his word runs swiftly.

As for the rest of your conjecture as to when Judgement began and how it proceeds I fear you are gravely mistaken. The Bible speaks of "that Day", emphasis "Day".
 
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Erik Nelson

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I believe not, that is I believe what Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:27:
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Now that does not sound prolonged! There will be signs and a general degradation of the earth leading to this culmination of the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord, but He will come swiftly and in power, again...
Psalm 137:15:
He sends his command to the earth;
his word runs swiftly.

As for the rest of your conjecture as to when Judgement began and how it proceeds I fear you are gravely mistaken. The Bible speaks of "that Day", emphasis "Day".
a day is a thousand years

and a long time separates the resurrection of Jesus Christ the "first fruits"...

From the first resurrection at the beginning of the Millennium...

From the final resurrection at the end of earth time.

Revelation can't be wrong either.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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a day is a thousand years

and a long time separates the resurrection of Jesus Christ the "first fruits"...

From the first resurrection at the beginning of the Millennium...

From the final resurrection at the end of earth time.

Revelation can't be wrong either.
A day is a thousand years AND a thousand years is but a day.
You are picking and choosing your phrase there...and the phrase only means that God speaks of time measures with no precision...which is His good purpose.
Don't know why you say Revelation can't be wrong. It isn't wrong in my understanding of its meaning either.
 
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parousia70

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I'd say the Lord of the vineyard parallels Jesus' coming to earth. The vineyard's being given to others parallels the coming in of Gentiles into the kingdom, which happened in Acts 10-11. If I'm correct, this would mean it has already happened.
The Coming of the Lord of the Vineyard to Miserably destroy the Chief Priests and Pharisees happened at Acts 10-11?
I don't find that happening there.

Not that the Coming of the lord of the vineyard, is a coming in Judgement to destroy the wicked vinedressers vs 40-41 happens AFTER the Son is Killed, so can not be a parallel to Jesus' Incarnation.
 
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parousia70

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Psalms 90:2 says, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” He “remainest for ever” (Lamentations 5:19). He “inhabiteth eternity” (Isaiah 57:15). God shall assuredly “endure forever” (Psalms 102:12) because He is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Psalms 41:13, 90:2). God is “the same” and His “years have no end” (Psalms 102:27), His “years shall not fail” (Hebrews 1:12) “neither can the number of his years be searched out” (Job 36:26). God is not limited to time as man is, His “years are throughout all generations” (Psalms 102:24).

Moses testifies in Psalms 90:3-5, presenting the exact same thought as that offered by Peter in 2 Peter 3:8, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.” We should carefully note, the passage doesn’t say, ‘For a thousand years in thy sight are but as tomorrow which is yet to come’ as our Premillennialist brethren would prefer it to say, but rather, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.”

2 Peter 3:8 is simply telling us that time is nothing with the Lord. God lives in eternity and His perspective of time far exceeds the finite mind of man. A ‘thousand years’ in this life is but a flash in the light of eternity. Moses proceeds on in the same Psalms (Psalms 90) to describe the solemn reality of the fleetingness of time and the brevity of life, saying, “For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told” (v 9). No wonder Moses humbly prays to God, “teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom” (v 12) We should always bear in mind, the span of our years is as nothing to God. That’s why David declared, “Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee” (Psalms 39:5).


EXACTLY.. Which is why, when we find Time statements in scripture, we know that they are given to be understood by how man reckons time, not how God does.
God created time FOR man, not for Himself, for he is TimeLESS.

God Doesn't have near or far, long time, or shortly.
Those are human terms, and are given to be understood as such.

Thank you for confirming this fact.
 
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parousia70

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As has been ably said previous by Blade and Non-Prophet, our perception of time, whether brief or long, is totally relative. The swiftness or “slowness” of the time depends on one’s vantage point. While 2000 years may seem a long time to us in time and on earth, to God in heaven, it is but a brief period in the light of eternity.

Rather,
God doesn't have "a brief period"
God doesn't have "Shortly"
God doesn't Have "near or far"

Those are Human time spans.

God is Time LESS.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Rather,
God doesn't have "a brief period"
God doesn't have "Shortly"
God doesn't Have "near or far"

Those are Human time spans.

God is Time LESS.

You are fighting with the Word of God! 2 Peter 3:8-9 powerfully illustrates this: “be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack (or slow) concerning his promise, as some men count slackness (slowness).”
 
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throughfiierytrial

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EXACTLY.. Which is why, when we find Time statements in scripture, we know that they are given to be understood by how man reckons time, not how God does.
God created time FOR man, not for Himself, for he is TimeLESS.

God Doesn't have near or far, long time, or shortly.
Those are human terms, and are given to be understood as such.

Thank you for confirming this fact.
Then why do we have this verse which is given regarding Christ's coming?...
II Peter 3:8-9:
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
 
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parousia70

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Then why do we have this verse which is given regarding Christ's coming?...
II Peter 3:8-9:
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Seems plain to me. The people were getting restless in those last days, Scoffing at what they felt was a delay... Peter was saying "hold on, it's near, God is being patient, you should be too..."

Peter is NOT saying, Its going to be 2000+ more years so you should give up hoping for it to come in your lifetime.

Note How Peter reverses the phrase:
"with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

He is not saying the same thing Twice,..
With the lord, one thousand years can seem like on day, AND One day can Seem like 1000 years... Both opposite realities are true with the lord..

He can make 1000 earth years seem like one day to Him, AND He can make one earth Day Seem like 1000 years to Him.

God is TimeLESS..but, contrary to many claims here, He knows how to tell time correctly, and is perfectly capable to accurately communicate it's passing to human beings in a way that human beings can understand and apply to their lives.

Time is For Man.
 
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parousia70

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You are fighting with the Word of God! 2 Peter 3:8-9 powerfully illustrates this: “be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack (or slow) concerning his promise, as some men count slackness (slowness).”
Again, Note How Peter reverses the phrase:
"with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

He is not saying the same thing Twice,..
With the lord, one thousand years can seem like on day, AND One day can Seem like 1000 years... Both opposite realities are true with the lord..

He can make 1000 earth years seem like one day to Him, AND He can make one earth Day Seem like 1000 years to Him.

God is TimeLESS..but, contrary to your claims here, He knows how to tell time correctly, and is perfectly capable to accurately communicate it's passing to human beings in a way that human beings can understand and apply to their lives.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Seems plain to me. The people were getting restless in those last days, Scoffing at what they felt was a delay... Peter was saying "hold on, it's near, God is being patient, you should be too..."

Peter is NOT saying, Its going to be 2000+ more years so you should give up hoping for it to come in your lifetime.

Note How Peter reverses the phrase:
"with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

He is not saying the same thing Twice,..
With the lord, one thousand years can seem like on day, AND One day can Seem like 1000 years... Both opposite realities are true with the lord..

He can make 1000 earth years seem like one day to Him, AND He can make one earth Day Seem like 1000 years to Him.

God is TimeLESS..but, contrary to many claims here, He knows how to tell time correctly, and is perfectly capable to accurately communicate it's passing to human beings in a way that human beings can understand and apply to their lives.

Time is For Man.

40 years would not have been enough time for the mockers and scoffer to deride the reality of the glorious return of Christ. But a two thousand years wait fits more into the narrative. The whole 1 day/thousand years narrative totally negates the Preterist argument.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Again, Note How Peter reverses the phrase:
"with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

He is not saying the same thing Twice,..
With the lord, one thousand years can seem like on day, AND One day can Seem like 1000 years... Both opposite realities are true with the lord..

He can make 1000 earth years seem like one day to Him, AND He can make one earth Day Seem like 1000 years to Him.

God is TimeLESS..but, contrary to your claims here, He knows how to tell time correctly, and is perfectly capable to accurately communicate it's passing to human beings in a way that human beings can understand and apply to their lives.

One thing He did not say is that one eternal day is like 40 years.
 
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claninja

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On this matter, a basic understanding of "time" and "eternity" will explain what we are looking at in Scripture. The phrase “at hand” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It carries the same sense as our English word.

English Definition of Approach

a: to draw closer to : near approach a destination
b : to come very near to : to be almost the same as

The use of Approach is always in regards to literal nearness.

If I live in Maine and walk out into my backyard, facing westward, that would constitute me as approaching California? No, for that is not how the word "approach" is used.

However, if I went on a road trip from Maine to California, and was literally near the state of California in my car, then it would be appropriate to state I am approaching California.


While your argument that "eggizo" can mean approach is correct, your attempt to change the definition of "approach" is untenable.
 
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claninja

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I have already told you, but you will not accept it because it refutes Preterism. It simply means "approaches." The coming of the Lord is impending not imminent. No one knows the duration.

God can tell us when this are far away
Daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been spoken is true. Now you must seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”

God can tell us when they are near.

Revelation 22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near.

If things are not actually near, God can tell us they are for a distant future, like He did in Daniel.
 
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sovereigngrace

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English Definition of Approach

a: to draw closer to : near approach a destination
b : to come very near to : to be almost the same as

The use of Approach is always in regards to literal nearness.

If I live in Maine and walk out into my backyard, facing westward, that would constitute me as approaching California? No, for that is not how the word "approach" is used.

However, if I went on a road trip from Maine to California, and was literally near the state of California in my car, then it would be appropriate to state I am approaching California.


While your argument that "eggizo" can mean approach is correct, your attempt to change the definition of "approach" is untenable.

Really?

When you constantly cherry-pick your definitions then it allows your doctrine to fit. The Preterist rigid understanding of genea is a classic case-in-point. The prime meaning of approach in English is: "to draw closer to." It is totally relative to the subject matter. Christ's return is indeed getting closer or approaching.

Preterists find themselves in the camp of the scoffers mocking the reality of, and the supposed delay in, the glorious climactic return of Christ.

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

What is the focus here (and that of the rest of the NT)? Is it Titus or Jesus?

What is the promise? Is it AD70 or the final climactic return of Christ, which includes the general resurrection/judgment of the living and the dead and the introduction of the new perfect eternal state?
 
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Gideons300

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After 2000 years why are we still waiting for the return of the King of Kings?

It was a clear expectation of the early church that Jesus would return soon. Peter even made a special effort to debunk the intellectual pagans and false teachers of his time who suggested that this was a lie and that there would be no return. In 2 Peter 1:16-21 Peter used, as the basis of his refutation of this false accusation, the experience of James, John and Peter of the Transfiguration on the Holy Mountain (where the Messiah is expected to return). Because they had seen the glorified Christ they knew that He would one day return in that same glory as the King of Kings. No one on this earth had a comparable majesty , so only Jesus could be the King we waited for. The martyrs went to their deaths in the various persecutions of the Roman empire under Nero, Domitian and later Trajan and Marcus Aurelius singing the praises of this King and in the expectation that their King, the Returning King Jesus, would soon hold corrupt demonically inspired authorities to account and that the Emperor would get his comeuppance. But 2000 years later we are still waiting. It is the strongest prophecy of the Christian church, it is the overwhelming expectation of the church, ensuring that we live lives in expectation of our final review by the returning King. It is written into our creeds.

"He will return in glory to judge the Living and the Dead and his Kingdom will have no end"

But where is he, what possible reason could there be for keeping his bride waiting so long?
Have we ever considered it might because we as a whole are in no way ready to meet Him?

In Revelation 3, Jesus said to the church at Sardis:

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent.

If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:1-5

He is coming back for a bride without spot or wrinkle, and what Jesus says here pokes huge holes in our "new" gospel that once we are saved, God sees us through Jesus colored glasses.

We are even now being awakened to the depths of our lukewarmness. How we respond will determine everything.

blessings,

Gids
 
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