Is this even fair and just??

NWGeorgiaguy · Feb 18, 2020

This has to do with traffic laws but this is an analogy. Let's say in a certain state john does 60 in a 55 which is 5 miles over the speed limit and steve later in same state same highway does 135 in a 55 which is considered very dangerous and wreckless. One month later both goes pays the speeding ticket and both have to pay $800.00. In this state they don't go by how much over the speed limit but the very fact you broke the law of speeding and the penalty is the same across the spectrum.
Now this will put believer's to a critical thinking test on this analogy. This will lead to my next discussion on a thorny issue.
Tell me your thought's

Ricky M · Feb 18, 2020

Go big or go home?

Ricky M · Feb 18, 2020

There are certain levels these things fall under. Between 1 and, let's say 25 mph over it's an infraction. All infractions carry the same fine. Between 26 and say 40 mph over it becomes a misdemeanor. All misdemeanors carry the same fine. Over 40 in this example is felony reckless. With it's own fine.

So yes, within each level, you may have people who did different speeds paying the same fine. Is it fair? Not totally.

So, why were you speeding?

St_Worm2 · Feb 18, 2020

Hello @NWGeorgiaguy, States use a point system as well as a fine for speeding violations. Here, for instance, is Georgia's point system (which seems pretty lenient to me .. we receive 6 points on our licenses once we hit 20 MPH over the speed limit or more in my State): Points and Points Reduction

Since this system of justice is not the main point of your OP, I will leave it at that, but I thought that I should mention it. BTW, 6 points, at least here, is the same amount that you receive for a DUI

--David

Sketcher · Feb 18, 2020

I'm just going to cut to the chase here. What do you think this is analogous to?

crossnote · Feb 18, 2020

There used to be a bumper sticker that said: "Despite inflation, the wages of sin remain the same."

Brian Mcnamee · Feb 18, 2020

the scriptures do equate one sin as breaking the whole law so in that sense both are equally guilty. The LORD is just and there are different levels of hell so this is where your argument falls apart. The Hitlers can achieve 100% forgiveness in a moment and go from a great debtor to debt free. The mother Theresas can go from pretty good but guilty to cleansed also in a second. If neither believes and is forgiven they bare their guilt. The great sinner who who dodged a greater condemnation can be compared to the minor sinner who died in their sins. The key is to turn to Jesus and be forgiven. If you are the worst you will be white as snow and if your are the best you die separated from God. all of us need a savior that is the point of all creation.

Sabertooth · Feb 19, 2020

My first take of the OP is the law can only be said to be unfair/unjust if it is not enforced equally (as it is written on the books). A graduated fine makes more sense, but legislators have no obligation to adopt that rationale, to be considered fair & just.

topher694 · Feb 19, 2020

My thoughts are:
"I wonder what advice he is seeking?"
"Perhaps he's looking to buy a new vehicle"
"I don't like thorns"
"I could go for some pie about now"

HTacianas · Feb 19, 2020

Okay. I'll bite. No, it's not fair.

timewerx · Feb 19, 2020

It's a very complex subject if we must discuss this in multiple levels and cross references across the Bible.

It challenges the very nature of reality itself.

I hate being called nuts so this is the only thing I'll tell you - there are many doctrines that are false. It's usually the ones that make you fear using critical thinking that are false.....

Critical thinking is life. Anyone who think that religion and critical can't go together and we must assume everything that makes no sense to be true (because the pastor or the priest said it) is wide open to deception.

The Pharisees hated Christ NOT because they used Critical Thinking but rather demonstrated the LACK of it.

Critical thinking requires one to drop their biases, their traditions, dogmas, cultural beliefs, superstitions, and sometimes even scientific beliefs (if present evidence, theory, concept have stronger basis on facts).

Because those things blind a person's mind from the Truth. The Pharisees have all those problems so they rejected the truths of Christ that challenged their long-held beliefs.

Their problems did not end there. And on the subject of divine justice, this is one thing most Christians are not ready to know the truth yet. It's like throwing pearls to pigs. Like I said, I hate being called nuts.

paul1149 · Feb 19, 2020

Perhaps I'm jumping ahead.

So when evening had come, the master of the vineyard said to his steward, 'Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning from the last to the first.'
And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, everyone received a denarius each.
But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received a denarius each.
And when they had received it, they murmured against the landowner,
saying, 'These last have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have endured the burden and heat of the day.'
But he responded to one of them and said, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?
Take what is yours, and go your way. I desire to give to the last, the same as you.
Is it not lawful for me to do what I want with my own things? Is your eye corrupt because I am good?'
So the last will be first, and the first last. Because many are called, but few are chosen. -Matt 20:8-16

This parable seems grossly unfair. Is not God Just?, we ask. But the parable is in reference to salvation, as the last line indicates. Jesus uses hyperbole, even shocking hyperbole, at times to drive His point deep. Salvation is a gift, wholly undeserved, wholly unmerited. Our attitude should be thankfulness for being Saved at all, and our attention should not be on how well others seem to be doing or on feeling that the sins we were forgiven of are less serious than theirs, so we are more worthy.

1Cor 3 goes on to tell us that there are indeed a variety of Kingdom rewards for obedience. And elsewhere Paul talks about varying degrees of glory. God is not unfair, nor unjust. But Jesus is making the foundational point that our proper attitude should be one of humility and thankfulness for what He gives each of us, not on comparison to others.

Maria Billingsley · Feb 19, 2020

I like the state that gives the same penalty no matter how fast you go. Here in California we have the opposite and tons of reckless driving!

Albion · Feb 19, 2020

It may be unfair, but it is what it is because the government sees it as a way to raise money.

And when the people come to election day, they will of course vote for the politicians who say they are going to give free money away. They never think of how the government gets it in the first place.

ColoRaydo · Feb 19, 2020

The limit is 55.
Both John and Steve broke the law and they are equally guilty. They would still be guilty If they drove 56, intentionally or unintentionally. If Steve had to use the bathroom really bad, it doesn’t change the law. If John was late for church, it doesn’t change the law. The limit is 55.

John went to court on his own, because who cares about a few miles over? Unfortunately he was fined.

Steve hired an advocate. He plead guilty. His advocate got all the charges dropped. Steve has had his slate cleaned but will keep his advocate on speed dial because he knows he’s not perfect and will need his help over and over again, but he’ll certainly try to do better.

None of this applies to Mary though. Mary doesn’t live anywhere near the highway so 55 doesn’t affect her. But that doesn’t stop her from pointing out that she never speeds, but John and Steve do. Mary drives with a burnt out tail light though, but she says it’s not her fault because she didn’t burn it out intentionally. If Mary ever gets stopped by the cops for it she will point out that she wasn’t speeding.

And there’s Bob. Bob doesn’t drive at all, but he considers himself to be an expert driver as he tells other people how to do it. He likes to quote the state’s driving laws and tell others the penalties for their transgressions. Bob wants John, Steve and Mary to know how guilty they are. He sends them excerpts from the state driving book. They had better get in line like he is (or how he would be if he drove).

There are some Steves, a ton of Marys, and a lot of Bobs on CF.

Their only hope is to have an advocate represent them in court, because no matter how much they point to their lack of speeding (because they are better than those lousy fast drivers) , they are violating SOME law. They can deny it, but they are either lying or sadly mistaken.

Joy · Feb 26, 2020

MOD HAT ON

This Thread has Moved
From Christian Advice
To The Junk Drawer

MOD HAT OFF

Archivist · Feb 27, 2020

In the Commonwealth where I previously lived, Pennsylvania, the police have to allow you six mph over the speed limit if they were using radar so you wouldn't get a ticket for going 60 in a 55 zone. That doesn't apply if they clock you by some other means or if you are within a school zone or an active work zone.

grasping the after wind · Feb 27, 2020

It is just and fair as both were speeding. 60 must be considered very dangerous and reckless as well as 135 or the speed limit would be 60. The possibility also exists that the driver doing 60 was actually more reckless and dangerous than the one doing 135. Individuals differ in their abilities. A nascar driver doing 135 is likely less dangerous and reckless than a beginning driver with a learner's permit going 56.

NWGeorgiaguy · Feb 28, 2020

Not really the replies I was hoping for is this planet earth? But really in all honesty 135mph is dangerous and wreckless and 60 is just normal. 99% of us can see the unjust of weighing the guilt on someone who is driving decent vs. someone driving drunk, wreckless, excessive speeds over 100. But this pertains to how we treat brothers and sisters in Christ on issues. This brings me to the issue of divorce and remarriage. You will have on one hand a a second marriage that occur on good grounds and a variety of senerios which would be deemed acceptable. Then you have ruthless jerks or heartless people who ditch their spouse for a side chick or dude and marry them. The problem is not solely on the couples but the outsiders who judge with the same weight of judgement. It's just me I guess but I can't sweep all remarried folks under the same guilt. I read the bible and my conclusion is yes remarriage is biblical if it is done with a godly heart and you done all you can to salvage all avenues to save your first marriage.
This brings me to well known cases we can evaluate from maybe it's not the best example but I use it anyways. Well known pastor by the name of Greg Locke remarries his Secretary if you haven't read this this is such a sad disturbing story. Second one is Amy Grant marriage to Vince Gill. From what I read from this one seems like she had biblical grounds but sketchy at best. Her first husband seems abusive and controlling not 100% on the valid reasons Vince Gill first marriage ended. To my best knowledge both was outright divorce before they got together. So is Amy and Vince is comparible to Pastor Greg Locke on the same weight.........NO I don't think so! But hey that's just me.
Is it a good thing to cast of spectrum of same judgement to all remarried folks as equal to pastor Greg Locke? If a born again believer is sane and can understand basic logic in life I can't fathom how someone can conclude all remarriages is under the same weight of judgement.
I know someone who got divorce and their ex moved 800 miles away has a new life got remarried and that was 17 years ago. They don't know squat about them no contact in 17 years 800 miles apart no way to contact in any way shape or form. This person can get a PI to track this person down and it will be a cold case I promise that. I know others say death is the only thing but geez really. His ex could be dead or alive he just don't know and he could travel the ends of the earth and hunt her down but it will come up as a person that fell off the face of the earth. But if he remarries he would face harsh criticism of marriage permenance zealots in the christian circles. To me this is heartless to put everybody in this same weight of judgement.

NWGeorgiaguy · Feb 28, 2020

This is not to meant to be a debate

Is this even fair and just??

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