Why hasn't Jesus come back yet?

sovereigngrace said:

When and how did Jesus "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27)?

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Have you ever done a study of how trumpet sounds are used in scripture? Are you aware the use of the trumpet imagery is compared with that of a "voice"? Are you aware Isaiah reports a standard will be raised and a trumpet will be blown in Jerusalem and all the inhabitants of the world see the standard and hear the trumpet. Do you think people in Argentina can see a flag in Jerusalem? Can they hear a trumpet blown in Jerusalem? Is this some kind of really, really, really, really tall standard that is so tall it can be seen over the curvature of the entire planet? There's no mention of any such thing in the passage. Is it a "standard" of some other kind? Is this a reference to the cross at Calvary? If so then the people living on the other side of the planet did not see it in the first century. Some folks nowadays say this standard will be seen because it will be televised and the broadcast media and the internet will make it visible around the globe, but there's no such mention of any such thing in the Isaiah passage.

Furthermore, if we're going to say Isaiah's mention of a standard and a trumpet is figurative or symbolic then don't you think the Bible itself is the best place to go to for understanding what the Bible means when the Bible uses Bible imagery?


So, sovereigngrace, have you ever studied this matter? If not then are you sure you want to place yourself in a position to learn it from me here in this forum? Because if not then I encourage you to do the work. If so then I expect you to be open to God's word and not approach my posts adversarially with pre-existing adversarialness. I'm not interested in doing work you should already have done for you if you're going to play skeptic, devil's advocate, and hole-finder from the outset and never act like the Berean.


The Bible contains 109 references of "trumpet" or "trumpets" in the Bible in the KJV. It should not take you very long to examine them. I encourage you to do a similar examination of "gathering."


I also encourage you to study the post hoc fallacy because we do not render scripture by history; we render history by scripture. ALL refutatious arguments that begin with "When did X happen? have already committed a fallacy. ALL of them.


Does that mean all preaching of the gospel must include mention of this woman's actions? "Ope! Nope! Bill Graham didn't mention the Matthew 26 woman last night so he didn't preach the gospel!"

That would not only be a post hoc argument but a false cause argument. Both are fallacious arguments.



So you decide whether you are really interest in my answering your question, soevereigngrace. Don't waste both or time if you are not sincere. If you are sincere now then work to remain sincere as I answer your question. Let me know your decision and when I have time later today I'll post what I can in the time I have.

Josheb said:

Have you ever done a study of how trumpet sounds are used in scripture? Are you aware the use of the trumpet imagery is compared with that of a "voice"? Are you aware Isaiah reports a standard will be raised and a trumpet will be blown in Jerusalem and all the inhabitants of the world see the standard and hear the trumpet. Do you think people in Argentina can see a flag in Jerusalem? Can they hear a trumpet blown in Jerusalem? Is this some kind of really, really, really, really tall standard that is so tall it can be seen over the curvature of the entire planet? There's no mention of any such thing in the passage. Is it a "standard" of some other kind? Is this a reference to the cross at Calvary? If so then the people living on the other side of the planet did not see it in the first century. Some folks nowadays say this standard will be seen because it will be televised and the broadcast media and the internet will make it visible around the globe, but there's no such mention of any such thing in the Isaiah passage.

Furthermore, if we're going to say Isaiah's mention of a standard and a trumpet is figurative or symbolic then don't you think the Bible itself is the best place to go to for understanding what the Bible means when the Bible uses Bible imagery?


So, sovereigngrace, have you ever studied this matter? If not then are you sure you want to place yourself in a position to learn it from me here in this forum? Because if not then I encourage you to do the work. If so then I expect you to be open to God's word and not approach my posts adversarially with pre-existing adversarialness. I'm not interested in doing work you should already have done for you if you're going to play skeptic, devil's advocate, and hole-finder from the outset and never act like the Berean.


The Bible contains 109 references of "trumpet" or "trumpets" in the Bible in the KJV. It should not take you very long to examine them. I encourage you to do a similar examination of "gathering."


I also encourage you to study the post hoc fallacy because we do not render scripture by history; we render history by scripture. ALL refutatious arguments that begin with "When did X happen? have already committed a fallacy. ALL of them.

Matthew 26:6-13
"Now when Jesus was in Bethany, at the home of Simon the leper, a woman came to Him with an alabaster vial of very costly perfume, and she poured it on His head as He reclined at the table. But the disciples were indignant when they saw this, and said, 'Why this waste? For this perfume might have been sold for a high price and the money given to the poor.' But Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "'Why do you bother the woman? For she has done a good deed to Me. For you always have the poor with you; but you do not always have Me. For when she poured this perfume on My body, she did it to prepare Me for burial. Truly I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be spoken of in memory of her.'"​

Does that mean all preaching of the gospel must include mention of this woman's actions? "Ope! Nope! Bill Graham didn't mention the Matthew 26 woman last night so he didn't preach the gospel!"

That would not only be a post hoc argument but a false cause argument. Both are fallacious arguments.



So you decide whether you are really interest in my answering your question, soevereigngrace. Don't waste both or time if you are not sincere. If you are sincere now then work to remain sincere as I answer your question. Let me know your decision and when I have time later today I'll post what I can in the time I have.

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You totally avoided my question, and transpired to go off on a rabbit chase. So, I will repeat it:

When and how did Jesus "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27)?

mindlight said:

After 2000 years why are we still waiting for the return of the King of Kings?

It was a clear expectation of the early church that Jesus would return soon. Peter even made a special effort to debunk the intellectual pagans and false teachers of his time who suggested that this was a lie and that there would be no return. In 2 Peter 1:16-21 Peter used, as the basis of his refutation of this false accusation, the experience of James, John and Peter of the Transfiguration on the Holy Mountain (where the Messiah is expected to return). Because they had seen the glorified Christ they knew that He would one day return in that same glory as the King of Kings. No one on this earth had a comparable majesty , so only Jesus could be the King we waited for. The martyrs went to their deaths in the various persecutions of the Roman empire under Nero, Domitian and later Trajan and Marcus Aurelius singing the praises of this King and in the expectation that their King, the Returning King Jesus, would soon hold corrupt demonically inspired authorities to account and that the Emperor would get his comeuppance. But 2000 years later we are still waiting. It is the strongest prophecy of the Christian church, it is the overwhelming expectation of the church, ensuring that we live lives in expectation of our final review by the returning King. It is written into our creeds.

"He will return in glory to judge the Living and the Dead and his Kingdom will have no end"

But where is he, what possible reason could there be for keeping his bride waiting so long?

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Depending on how old you feel the earth is, it took at least 4000 years for the first advent of Christ...we are only two thousand years past that.

Christ could return tomorrow, or in 2000 years, or in 10 thousand years, know one knows. We just need to be ready.

sovereigngrace said:

Your teachers have taught you wrong.

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Pretty sure it’s your teachers who did so and I don’t have teachers in any case.

We are all gathered together in the air when Jesus comes. The angels do the gathering. Please read the text!

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Read the rest of the Bible too. We won’t. I can assure you that what you hope is not going to happen because it’s false.

He actually said in Mat 24:31: "they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

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Read the rest of the Bible. The kingdom of Heaven has come. But since I know the truth, I don’t have to shout it in big, bold red letters like those who don’t. When you shout like that it shows you are trying to convince yourself.

sovereigngrace said:

Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal perspective, not man’s natural perspective. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

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So when Jesus Said:
Matthew 24:33
So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

We are to understand He was expressing Nearness from God's Eternal, thousand years as a day Perspective, and not Man's Natural, Dim earthly view?

So we should interpret this passage to mean:
So you also, when you see all these things, know it is near & at the doors to God, but will still be thousands of years away to man, because everyone knows 1000 years are as a day to God!

Do I have that right?

sovereigngrace said:

Since when is 40 years+ later imminent?

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James 5:8-9 (Written in the mid to late 50's AD)
the coming of the Lord is near...behold, the Judge is standing right at the door

1 Peter 4:7 (written between AD 60-65)
But the end of all things is at hand

Phil 4:5 (written in the late 50's - early 60's AD)
The Lord is at hand

Hebrews 10:37 (written in the Mid 60's AD)
for yet a very very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry

All within a Decade or less. After 1500 years of extant operation, The End of the Old Covenant administration, with it's temple and rituals, at the "coming of the Lord of the Vineyard to destroy them" (Matt 21:40-41) was indeed accurately classified as, and correctly purported to be "Near" a decade prior.

parousia70 said:

So when Jesus Said:
Matthew 24:33
So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

We are to understand He was expressing Nearness from God's Eternal, thousand years as a day Perspective, and not Man's Natural, Dim earthly view?

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No he wasn’t. He was giving them signs so they’d know to get outta town. They did and avoided the terrible judgement.

So we should interpret this passage to mean:
So you also, when you see all these things, know it is near & at the doors to God, but will still be thousands of years away to man, because everyone knows 1000 years are as a day to God!

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Not so. He meant it will come so leave immediately. It came and is in our past.

Do I have that right?

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No.

parousia70 said:

You mean The ones who Paul counted Himself Among here?
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess 4:17)

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Notice no angels gathering anyone. This is the resurrection, by the way.

Dorothy Mae said:

Pretty sure it’s your teachers who did so and I don’t have teachers in any case.
Read the rest of the Bible too. We won’t. I can assure you that what you hope is not going to happen because it’s false.

Read the rest of the Bible. The kingdom of Heaven has come. But since I know the truth, I don’t have to shout it in big, bold red letters like those who don’t. When you shout like that it shows you are trying to convince yourself.

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Preterists are quick to throw charges but slow to address the contradictions in their theory. That is because the Scriptures forbid their beliefs.

• You cannot get away from the fact that the great commission has been laid upon the redeemed Church in this intra-Advent period, not angels, and it will be preached right up until the end, when Jesus comes in power and glory to glorify us and glorify this corruptible earth.
• The angels gather the elect from the earth and from heaven on that great day when the redeemed join Christ to populate the new earth.
• You couldn't even tell us what happened in 10AD.
• You couldn't even explain your belief in 3 ages - this age, the age to come, the age to come after the age to come.
• You couldn't even explain how corruption, sin, death, marriage, the curse and tears have ended, because they have not. This all negates the Preterist belief.

parousia70 said:

So when Jesus Said:
Matthew 24:33
So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

We are to understand He was expressing Nearness from God's Eternal, thousand years as a day Perspective, and not Man's Natural, Dim earthly view?

So we should interpret this passage to mean:
So you also, when you see all these things, know it is near & at the doors to God, but will still be thousands of years away to man, because everyone knows 1000 years are as a day to God!

Do I have that right?

Click to expand...

Peter is simply reminding the end-time scoffers that time is absolutely nothing to the king of glory; He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalms 93:2).

In fact, Psalms 90:2 says, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” He “remainest for ever” (Lamentations 5:19). He “inhabiteth eternity” (Isaiah 57:15). God shall assuredly “endure forever” (Psalms 102:12) because He is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Psalms 41:13, 90:2). God is “the same” and His “years have no end” (Psalms 102:27), His “years shall not fail” (Hebrews 1:12) “neither can the number of his years be searched out” (Job 36:26). God is not limited to time as man is, His “years are throughout all generations” (Psalms 102:24).

Moses testifies in Psalms 90:3-5, presenting the exact same thought as that offered by Peter in 2 Peter 3:8, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.” We should carefully note, the passage doesn’t say, ‘For a thousand years in thy sight are but as tomorrow which is yet to come’ as our Premillennialist brethren would prefer it to say, but rather, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.”

2 Peter 3:8 is simply telling us that time is nothing with the Lord. God lives in eternity and His perspective of time far exceeds the finite mind of man. A ‘thousand years’ in this life is but a flash in the light of eternity. Moses proceeds on in the same Psalms (Psalms 90) to describe the solemn reality of the fleetingness of time and the brevity of life, saying, “For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told” (v 9). No wonder Moses humbly prays to God, “teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom” (v 12) We should always bear in mind, the span of our years is as nothing to God. That’s why David declared, “Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee” (Psalms 39:5).

parousia70 said:

James 5:8-9 (Written in the mid to late 50's AD)
the coming of the Lord is near...behold, the Judge is standing right at the door

1 Peter 4:7 (written between AD 60-65)
But the end of all things is at hand

Phil 4:5 (written in the late 50's - early 60's AD)
The Lord is at hand

Hebrews 10:37 (written in the Mid 60's AD)
for yet a very very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry

All within a Decade or less. After 1500 years of extant operation, The End of the Old Covenant administration, with it's temple and rituals, at the "coming of the Lord of the Vineyard to destroy them" (Matt 21:40-41) was indeed accurately classified as, and correctly purported to be "Near" a decade prior.

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It is looking at time from a family perspective, not our puny limited perspective. Acts 1:11: “Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven is the way He will return.

How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Physically: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”

Revelation 1:7 declares: “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him” (Revelation 1:7).

Did every eye see Jesus coming back in AD70? Of course not! That is absurd!

Upon His appearing, did the Jews wail over Him? Of course not! That is absurd! Equally, did the Gentiles also wail because of him? Of course not! That is absurd!

Here we see the most public event of all time - the literal, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.”

The Scriptures talks much about the unexpected nature of the second coming of Christ but nothing of a secret coming. This is clearly an arrival that will shake the world.

Jesus explains in Matthew 24:27: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid!. It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.

This secret is only in regards the time of His coming, not the reality of it.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 26:64: “Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

This is repeated in Mark 14:62: “ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:26–27: “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

parousia70 said:

James 5:8-9 (Written in the mid to late 50's AD)
the coming of the Lord is near...behold, the Judge is standing right at the door

1 Peter 4:7 (written between AD 60-65)
But the end of all things is at hand

Phil 4:5 (written in the late 50's - early 60's AD)
The Lord is at hand

Hebrews 10:37 (written in the Mid 60's AD)
for yet a very very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry

All within a Decade or less. After 1500 years of extant operation, The End of the Old Covenant administration, with it's temple and rituals, at the "coming of the Lord of the Vineyard to destroy them" (Matt 21:40-41) was indeed accurately classified as, and correctly purported to be "Near" a decade prior.

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So, you avoid the question (as per normal) of what Jesus said and then divert the conversation. This is telling! Answering a question with further questions it's normally an admission that you don't have a credible answer. Please answer my initial question:

Since when is 40 years+ later imminent?

sovereigngrace said:

Preterists are quick to throw charges but slow to address the contradictions in their theory. That is because the Scriptures forbid their beliefs.

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I don’t think much of name calling as a defense.

• You cannot get away from the fact that the great commission has been laid upon the redeemed Church in this intra-Advent period, not angels, and it will be preached right up until the end, when Jesus comes in power and glory to glorify us and glorify this corruptible earth.

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• I agree.

  [*]The angels gather the elect from the earth and from heaven on that great day when the redeemed join Christ to populate the new earth.

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  Doesn't say so in the Bible. Nothing after that verse says Jesus is coming. In fact, chapters talk about how the kingdom will be like various examples. None of it sounds like a rapture.

  [*]You couldn't even tell us what happened in 10AD.

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  What would it change if I did? Isn’t that really silly?

  [*]You couldn't even explain your belief in 3 ages - this age, the age to come, the age to come after the age to come.

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  Yes I can. You never asked.

  [*]You couldn't even explain how corruption, sin, death, marriage, the curse and tears have ended, because they have not. This all negates the Preterist belief.

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Huh? Where are you getting your information?

mindlight said:

After 2000 years why are we still waiting for the return of the King of Kings?

It was a clear expectation of the early church that Jesus would return soon. Peter even made a special effort to debunk the intellectual pagans and false teachers of his time who suggested that this was a lie and that there would be no return. In 2 Peter 1:16-21 Peter used, as the basis of his refutation of this false accusation, the experience of James, John and Peter of the Transfiguration on the Holy Mountain (where the Messiah is expected to return). Because they had seen the glorified Christ they knew that He would one day return in that same glory as the King of Kings. No one on this earth had a comparable majesty , so only Jesus could be the King we waited for. The martyrs went to their deaths in the various persecutions of the Roman empire under Nero, Domitian and later Trajan and Marcus Aurelius singing the praises of this King and in the expectation that their King, the Returning King Jesus, would soon hold corrupt demonically inspired authorities to account and that the Emperor would get his comeuppance. But 2000 years later we are still waiting. It is the strongest prophecy of the Christian church, it is the overwhelming expectation of the church, ensuring that we live lives in expectation of our final review by the returning King. It is written into our creeds.

"He will return in glory to judge the Living and the Dead and his Kingdom will have no end"

But where is he, what possible reason could there be for keeping his bride waiting so long?

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Since you refer to 2 Peter 1, you can also learn from 1 Peter 3. In verses 9-10, Peter answers people who wonder why Jesus waits to come by saying that God measures time differently from human time and that his patience means salvation for many people. I'm thankful he hasn't come yet since we know a few unbelievers for whom we're praying that they will trust in Jesus before he comes.

Dorothy Mae said:

I don’t think much of name calling as a defense.

• I agree.Doesn't say so in the Bible. Nothing after that verse says Jesus is coming. In fact, chapters talk about how the kingdom will be like various examples. None of it sounds like a rapture. What would it change if I did? Isn’t that really silly? Yes I can. You never asked.

Huh? Where are you getting your information?

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What happened in AD10 to bring the old covenant to an end and introduce the new?

The kingdom is here now, and is spiritual, and came with the king (Christ) coming to this earth and commencing His earthly ministry. But there is a day coming when He will come in majesty and power and glorify us and creation and introduce His kingdom in all its eternal perfection. Theologians describe this great mystery as the already/not yet.

sovereigngrace said:

You totally avoided my question...

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Yep.

Yes, I did totally avoid your question AND I explained why. I'm not going to bother to explain anything to anyone who 1) wrongly thinks a fallacious post hoc argument warrants a response and 2) won't be open to the answer because he's not really interest in whatever I might post in answer to the question asked.

So, sovereigngrace, I understand you want an answer to the question you've asked. I don't understand whether you're actually interested in an answer.

Therefore I'm asking you: are you actually placing yourself in a position to possibly learn from me, or are you asking the question superfluously disingenuously because you think you already know the answer? The former I can work with. The latter I'll ignore. You choose.

sovereigngrace said:

Peter is simply reminding the end-time scoffers that time is absolutely nothing to the king of glory; He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalms 93:2).

In fact, Psalms 90:2 says, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” He “remainest for ever” (Lamentations 5:19). He “inhabiteth eternity” (Isaiah 57:15). God shall assuredly “endure forever” (Psalms 102:12) because He is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Psalms 41:13, 90:2). God is “the same” and His “years have no end” (Psalms 102:27), His “years shall not fail” (Hebrews 1:12) “neither can the number of his years be searched out” (Job 36:26). God is not limited to time as man is, His “years are throughout all generations” (Psalms 102:24).

Moses testifies in Psalms 90:3-5, presenting the exact same thought as that offered by Peter in 2 Peter 3:8, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.” We should carefully note, the passage doesn’t say, ‘For a thousand years in thy sight are but as tomorrow which is yet to come’ as our Premillennialist brethren would prefer it to say, but rather, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.”

2 Peter 3:8 is simply telling us that time is nothing with the Lord. God lives in eternity and His perspective of time far exceeds the finite mind of man. A ‘thousand years’ in this life is but a flash in the light of eternity. Moses proceeds on in the same Psalms (Psalms 90) to describe the solemn reality of the fleetingness of time and the brevity of life, saying, “For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told” (v 9). No wonder Moses humbly prays to God, “teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom” (v 12) We should always bear in mind, the span of our years is as nothing to God. That’s why David declared, “Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee” (Psalms 39:5).

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You avoided the question (as per normal).

Please address what Jesus meant by "near and at the doors" in Matt 24:33

You previously said Near is used to convey time from God's perspective, not man's, and any man who Says the term "near" in scripture is to be understood from mans perspective is "foolish".

Is that true here as well?

Jesus (who is God) said it.

Did He mean for us to understand it from Gods perspective of Near?
Or are you foolish enough to claim He meant "near" from man's perspective here?

sovereigngrace said:

So, you avoid the question

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No, I demonstrated that it's not 40 years but 10 years or less.

sovereigngrace said:

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven is the way He will return.

How did He go?

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How did Jesus go "into heaven"

Hidden from their eyes by a cloud, (Acts 1:9)
I believe in His "Like manner" return.

The text says he would return "In like manner as He went into heaven"

Only the apostles saw Him go
Do you believe His return will be "in like manner"?

He handed out no rewards or punishment at the ascension.
Do you likewise believe His return will be "in like manner"?

Jesus Christ most certainly appeared in like manner as He left on at least those two occasions as testified by the apostolic witness.
It happened to Paul on the road to Damascus and to Stephen at His stoning.
I'm inclined to believe the apostolic witness.
You are of course free to reject the apostolic testimony.

sovereigngrace said:

What happened in AD10 to bring the old covenant to an end and introduce the new?

The kingdom is here now, and is spiritual, and came with the king (Christ) coming to this earth and commencing His earthly ministry. But there is a day coming when He will come in majesty and power and glorify us and creation and introduce His kingdom in all its eternal perfection. Theologians describe this great mystery as the already/not yet.

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The Book Of Hebrews, written decades after AD 10, testifies the Old Covenant was at that time in place and extant, but becoming (present tense) obsolete, growing (again present tense) old and at that time ready to vanish. Hebrews 8:13

I believe the writer of Hebrews was correct.
You are of course free to disagree with Him.