The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

Hillsage said:

Gee I wonder why he wasn't considered anathematized until after he was dead...300 years.

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Almost sounds like they believed that a person's eternal destiny could be changed in the afterlife. (there's a twist)

Did Jesus forgive Judas?

Did I nail Jesus to the cross?

Saint Steven said:

Did I nail Jesus to the cross?

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Nope, the Romans did. But he forgave them didn't He? They didn't even repent or confess to MAKE HIM DO SO...did they?

FineLinen said:

Dear Sage: Every last one of us put Him there.

Both in the Hebrew and koine (kakos & poneros), the words indicate evil as being in effect malignant, and not only a cancerous malignancy but a malignant character of epic proportions.

The fall of A.&E. resulted in a malignancy flowing down to every one of us. The Godhead (ECHOD) could not allow fallen mankind to remain in such a state, thus barring them from partaking of the Tree of Life & live forever in that state.

The fallen pair, and all of us, must have serious surgery to remove every part of that malignancy.

Adam1 = "many made sinners" > > >Last Adam= "many made righteous"

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Your preaching to the choir. I totally agree. Still doesn't change my point, which was Jesus didn't 'just' get nailed for ole Sinner Steven...

Saint Steven said:

The kings are the representatives of the nations. As the king goes, so goes the nation.

Saint Steven said: ↑

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That is an arbitrary declaration by this Allain guy and not supported by SCripture! Scripture shows God has blessed nations but destroyed thier king! Sorry but that pig won't fly!

Saint Steven said:

Where is the harm?
Is it not worse to claim that our loving heavenly Father is a tyrannical monster?
Many these days want nothing to do with a God that would burn people forever in hell.
We offer a reasonable alternative to the common view. But Christians love hell so much, they will fight tooth and nail to preserve it.

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Well you accuse us of calling HIm a tyrannical monster because you refuse to accept Scripture as written instead of being interpreted by men! He offers salvation to rebellious men! He offers redemption to us who made ourselves His enemies! But He requires us to accept by trust in this life!

If men go to hell- it is because they reject God! You have yet to show that in the after life , one in the lake of fire can repent! Based on a superficial reading of the Bible in English your friend Braxey is closer to the truth than you . Annihilationsim at least has a basis based on unstudied English than restorationism does! I mourn that you have been taught to study SCripture with cetain blinders on! I was a universalist- then I studied th eWord in its full context and as much as I hate it personally- I know that those who die without Christ are lost for eternity!

Saint Steven said:

From today's Thomas Allin reading.

The restoration of Egypt

Jeremiah 25:19, 27
19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his attendants, his officials and all his people, ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Ezekiel 29:13-14
“‘Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered.
14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom.

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Mr. Allin needs a course in hermeneutics. Two different prophecies concerning two different times!

Saint Steven said:

You just swept away eight scriptures claiming context.
And then applied your doctrinal opinion as a refutation.
I thought we agreed that these say what they say.
But you head off in another direction to get away as fast as you can.

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What you are doing is divorcing them from the rest of Scripture concerning soteriology! If these verses were th eonly things God said about eternity, then yes, I would agree! But these verses do not speak to eternity, but speak to what Jesus has done. there is still the requirrement of accepting HIm by faith. You say that people in the afterlife can do that, but yet fail to list verses. Using verses based on your implication alone is not correct.

Once again you face the dilemma of everlasting life (aionios zoe) if everlasitng torment is only for an age in the after life based on the definition of aion, then you have to accept that everlasting life is only for an age as well! You cannot redefine one when it is th esame as the other!

Here is a rule to protect you in your study of Scripture. First immediate context., then book context (if applicable). Then Testament context with verses speaking on the same issue (in this case soteriology and when it can occur)

Let me give on example

Rev. 13:

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Based on the greek- as there was no word "forever" or "eternal" We can know for certain that whoever takes th emark will suffer torment for all ages to come! Which we define as eternal.

Anoither:

Matt. 25:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You have to give the same value of time for the punishment as you give for the life!

And as for Jesus being th eSavior of all men? Yes He is! BUT BUT BUT BUT

God HImself placed a condition on one receiving benefit from th esalvation Jesus gained. One has to express trust in what Jesus has done!

Saint Steven said:

There was an east and a west/Latin part of the early church. The east/Latin church was against Origen in the east. The same western/Latin church that gave us a biased Bible translation.

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that east/west split did not occur officially until 1054 AD. But there was a split between the antiochan followers and the Alexanderian followers! Th eantiochan group was the easter branch and held to a literal reading of Scripture while the western of alexanderain branch adhered to the covenant theology and allegorical interpretation.

Well the Roman church gave us the vulgate which is the translation into Latin. But eternal torment was taught by the Jews starting around Moses! It was the popular view in the time of Jesus and taught by Jesus as well!

Origen was a heretic rejected by both sides of the chruch (long before there was an east west division).

You accuse the West church of a biased translation. I tend to agree with you! The vulgate was heavily influenced by Augustinian philosophy. But you need to show that eternal torment is a claim added to the Scripture and not just make an accusation without facts!

I think right about here is where I should insert the scripture study I did on "aionios" which is correctly translated "eternal" and "everlasting" in the NT. I have yet to see anyone who disagrees with my conclusions try to refute my post.
.....In twenty four [24] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
List of verses cited:1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33,Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26, John 3:36 , John 4:14, John 6:27
.....In the NT “aion/aionios” sometimes refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
.....In 9 of these verses Jesus has defined “aionios” as eternal. In 10 verses Paul has defined “aionios” as eternal.
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, which is is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”

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[Previous post continued]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
In this verse aionios is contrasted with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.
In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent

FineLinen said:

Dear Sage: Every last one of us put Him there.

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Not me. Sage says so. (so there)

FineLinen said:

Noli: God IS the Saviour of all mankind. He is NOT a potential Saviour, He IS Saviour of the radical pas & the malista of His love & grace.

Every knee, every tongue, every dimension IN/EN union with the Name of all names in worship!

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Every tongue - lol

Hillsage said:

Your preaching to the choir. I totally agree. Still doesn't change my point, which was Jesus didn't 'just' get nailed for ole Sinner Steven...

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Hey... I resemble that remark.

nolidad said:

Well you accuse us of calling HIm a tyrannical monster because you refuse to accept Scripture as written instead of being interpreted by men!

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As written?
Is that what you call that travesty of a biased translation from the lying scribes?