Sons of God.

Do you have an opinion on the matter?

Tellyontellyon said:

In genesis I read that there are "sons of God" who came down to Earth before the flood (In my NIV Bible.)
What is a son of God? Why are they not called angels? Or are they some other sort of heavenly being?

Click to expand...

I think one reason why some interpret them to be angels, regardless they are not called angels in the text, is based on the following passage.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The timing would be when God laid the foundations of the earth. Only angels would have been around during that time, thus all the sons of God equal angels.

In this same book, we see this as well.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

This should mean sons of God are meaning angels here as well, if they are meaning angels in these other passages.


But when we get to the NT, sons of God are no longer meaning angels, but are meaning humans, as shown in a cpl of passages below.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

But if we consider the following---

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

This says of these in John 1:12 & Romans 8:14, they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead---Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels.


BTW, cool avatar. I actually have a Bullworker like that stored somewhere in our back bedroom. Haven't used it in ages, though.

Tellyontellyon said:

In genesis I read that there are "sons of God" who came down to Earth before the flood (In my NIV Bible.)
What is a son of God? Why are they not called angels? Or are they some other sort of heavenly being?

Click to expand...

I would suggest that you compare the NIV to the KJV.

Genesis 6:2
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Genesis 6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

sons of God refers to the decedents of Seth

daughters of men refer to the decedents of Cain

No where in the Bible does it say angels have sex, neither male or female

Tellyontellyon said:

In genesis I read that there are "sons of God" who came down to Earth before the flood (In my NIV Bible.)
What is a son of God? Why are they not called angels? Or are they some other sort of heavenly being?

Click to expand...

Sons of God are direct creations of our Father as the angels in Genesis and Adam.

Tellyontellyon said:

In genesis I read that there are "sons of God" who came down to Earth before the flood (In my NIV Bible.)
What is a son of God? Why are they not called angels? Or are they some other sort of heavenly being?

Click to expand...

I'm looking...looking...looking...looking,, hmm., where does it say 'they came down to earth'?

crossnote said:

I'm looking...looking...looking...looking,, hmm., where does it say 'they came down to earth'?

Click to expand...

Only in satans counterfeit of the true word of GOD

and that can be traced back to Hort and Wescott

crossnote said:

I'm looking...looking...looking...looking,, hmm., where does it say 'they came down to earth'?

Click to expand...

Well, it says they left their first estate.
Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.(KJV)

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Well, it says they left their first estate.
Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.(KJV)

Click to expand...

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first state. These angels, then, had fallen. Created holy, they had sinned and become wicked angels, or evil spirits.

JUDE 1:6 KJV "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in..."

Original Happy Camper said:

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first state. These angels, then, had fallen. Created holy, they had sinned and become nnmand came to Earth where they sinnedwicked angels, or evil spirits.

JUDE 1:6 KJV "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in..."

Click to expand...

Yes, but that is beside the point of my reply which is they left heaven,Though they sinned and are fallen, they are referred to as angels, not evil spirits.

Tellyontellyon said:

In genesis I read that there are "sons of God" who came down to Earth before the flood (In my NIV Bible.)
What is a son of God? Why are they not called angels? Or are they some other sort of heavenly being?

Click to expand...

There are two basic schools of thought:

1) The "sons of God", or b'nei Elohim, in Hebrew refer to certain angels. This view was occasionally popular in the 2nd Temple period, as shown by some texts from the period such as the Book of Enoch.

2) The "sons of God" refer to human beings, and the contrast between "sons of God" and "daughters of men" is a reference to two groups of humans--one from the line of Seth (Adam and Eve's third son) and one from the line of Cain (Adam and Eve's firstborn who murdered his brother Abel).

The second view is the one that has gained general acceptance in Judaism, and has also been the predominant view in Christianity, with a minority favoring the first view.

The truth is that it's an incredibly obscure passage that simply doesn't offer up any helpful details, and it's all said in passing. As such any explanation is going to boil down to some kind of conjecture. The text simply isn't clear enough to provide a straight, unambiguous answer.

I reject the angel theory, for the simple reason that angels don't have sex organs or bodies of any kind so the suggestion that angels can procreate is absurd and doesn't agree with the biblical and historic understanding of angels. Further, the result of the union of the "sons of God" and "daughters of men", the nephilim, are also just human, described as "men of renown". Later mention of nephilim include the very human residents from the Canaanite city-state of Ai, and even Goliath of Gath, the Philistine champion that the young David defeats with a sling. The people of Ai, and Goliath, weren't inhuman beasts, but regular human beings. Goliath, for example, was pretty tall, especially for the time and place, he could easily play for the NBA for example. But not inhumanly tall. The later Masoretic Text has Goliath as inhumanly tall, but the older manuscripts, such as the LXX and Dead Sea Scrolls only place Goliath's height at around 6'9. Tall, but not inhumanly tall.

-CryptoLutheran

Original Happy Camper said:

Only in satans counterfeit of the true word of GOD

and that can be traced back to Hort and Wescott

Click to expand...

Westcott and Hort produced a critical text of the New Testament; Genesis is in the Old Testament. Even if a translation used Westcott and Hort as a base for the New Testament, it would mean nothing as far as the Old Testament is concerned.

-CryptoLutheran

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Well, it says they left their first estate.
Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.(KJV)

Click to expand...

Fair enough, but it doesn't say they came to earth. (Perhaps the lifting up of their pride and following Lucifer was the 'leaving their own habitation'.

Tellyontellyon said:

In genesis I read that there are "sons of God" who came down to Earth before the flood (In my NIV Bible.)
What is a son of God? Why are they not called angels? Or are they some other sort of heavenly being?

Click to expand...

Hi Telly, welcome to the forums. This is a controversial topic, and, as others have noted, it is not crystal clear what exactly is referenced in this passage; so take whatever any of us tells you with a grain of salt. That said...

I believe that the Scripture consistently uses the exact term "sons of God" to refer to a direct creation of God. In the book of Job it is clear that angels are in view, in Genesis 6 it is debatable, but the evidence suggests that the "sons of God" there are also angels. That exhausts the times in the OT that the EXACT PHRASE "sons of God" is used. So let's look at the passage in Genesis 6 more closely:

First, Genesis 6:


The simple fact that the result of these unions was called the "Nephilim" (literally "fallen ones"), which were giants (see Numbers 13:33), indicates to me that something more than just believers marrying unbelievers was happening. These "fallen ones" were exceedingly evil, and their wickedness grieved God (Genesis 6:5-6).

It should also be noted that the angel view of Genesis 6 resolves some other questions in the Bible. For instance: why did God destroy the world in the flood of Noah? The answer? Because of the spread of Nephilim genetics; and, because of this, the world was "corrupt" and "filled with violence" (Genesis 6:11). Noah was "perfect in his generations" (Genesis 6:9, NKJV), meaning that his bloodline was not corrupted by the Nephilim. So God used him and his sons to start over. Also, why did God command Israel to destroy man, woman, and child of certain people groups in the promised land? The answer? Because their bloodlines were polluted by the Nephilim. We see giants (Nephilim) all over the promised land at the time of Joshua, and even into the early period of the kings. Apparently, after the flood, probably around the time of Abraham, more "sons of God" corrupted the bloodlines of people groups in the promised land. As we will see, God's judgment on these fallen angels was severe.

What about the New Testament, some might ask? Jesus was called "the Son of God", they might say. Well, I would say that Jesus is THE unique Only Begotten of the Father, and He is obviously in a category by Himself. Also, Christians are called "sons of God". Jesus tells us that we must be "born again" (John 3:3-7). We are born of our parents naturally, and then we must also be reborn of the Spirit... when the Holy Spirit enters our heart and regenerates us, we become a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15). Therefore every born again Christian is a direct creation of God.

Some strange New Testament passages are made clear by this view as well. In Jude 1:6-7 we see that certain fallen angels are imprisoned in "chains of darkness" for going after "strange flesh". This is probably in reference to the angels who perpetrated this horror. In 2 Peter 2:4-6, we see again that certain angels are in "chains of darkness" because of sins that are associated with the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah. This could also be a reference to these activities.

Finally, if one is to believe this view, one has to deal with Jesus' statement in Matthew 22:30. Here is exactly what He says:


This is speaking of men and women. So if angels in heaven do not reproduce, how could they possibly perpetrate what Genesis 6 describes? The answer, I believe, is found in paying close attention to what Jesus says... He says "angels in heaven". He says nothing about the capabilities of fallen angels. Even if one is to reject that point, it should be noted that we know now that sex is not the only way for children to be produced. We can artificially inseminate. If Jesus doesn't return soon, we will most likely be able to use technology to produce synthetic cells capable of producing a person. So what capabilities might have been available to spiritual beings much more knowledgeable and powerful than us? One can only speculate, but it is clear to me that Jesus' statement does not preclude the possibility of the angel view.

Again, this is a matter of interpretation and speculation. Both views have their merits, both views have their flaws... but I think the angel view has a better argument. Just my two cents worth.

God bless you;
Michael

-------------Edited to fix bad theology... not sure what I was thinking.-----------

ViaCrucis said:

There are two basic schools of thought:

1) The "sons of God", or b'nei Elohim, in Hebrew refer to certain angels. This view was occasionally popular in the 2nd Temple period, as shown by some texts from the period such as the Book of Enoch.

2) The "sons of God" refer to human beings, and the contrast between "sons of God" and "daughters of men" is a reference to two groups of humans--one from the line of Seth (Adam and Eve's third son) and one from the line of Cain (Adam and Eve's firstborn who murdered his brother Abel).

The second view is the one that has gained general acceptance in Judaism, and has also been the predominant view in Christianity, with a minority favoring the first view.

The truth is that it's an incredibly obscure passage that simply doesn't offer up any helpful details, and it's all said in passing. As such any explanation is going to boil down to some kind of conjecture. The text simply isn't clear enough to provide a straight, unambiguous answer.

I reject the angel theory, for the simple reason that angels don't have sex organs or bodies of any kind so the suggestion that angels can procreate is absurd and doesn't agree with the biblical and historic understanding of angels. Further, the result of the union of the "sons of God" and "daughters of men", the nephilim, are also just human, described as "men of renown". Later mention of nephilim include the very human residents from the Canaanite city-state of Ai, and even Goliath of Gath, the Philistine champion that the young David defeats with a sling. The people of Ai, and Goliath, weren't inhuman beasts, but regular human beings. Goliath, for example, was pretty tall, especially for the time and place, he could easily play for the NBA for example. But not inhumanly tall. The later Masoretic Text has Goliath as inhumanly tall, but the older manuscripts, such as the LXX and Dead Sea Scrolls only place Goliath's height at around 6'9. Tall, but not inhumanly tall.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

This is my first time commenting here. Hope I set it up correctly.

I would take a few exceptions to your comments. Firstly, I 100% agree that angels NEVER had sex with women. Numerous issues arise from this poor rendering of butchering Genesis 6.

Where we differ is the “offspring”. The “nephilim” were NOT the offspring. Giants, or tall of stature were already on the earth WHEN the “sons of God” married the daughters of men. I’m also looking deeper into the “men of renoun” as offspring also. It appears to me that the men of renoun is who the text is referring to as the sons of God. These men of renoun came from Genesis 4:26. “Then began men to call upon the name of the LORD”. The sons of God were ANYONE who called upon the name of the LORD. This could include even some who were descendants of Cain. A small minority at least. I believe the Sethite view is a little bit incomplete.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Well, it says they left their first estate.
Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.(KJV)

Click to expand...

I’m curious where Jude suggests that the angels that left their habitation having ANY sexual connotation with kidnapping,

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Well, it says they left their first estate.
Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.(KJV)

Click to expand...

I agree, there were angels who followed Satan and didn’t keep their first estate. Where is the sexual connection with women?

Sons of God is in contrast with Sons of men. One comes from direct creation by God, the other comes from a human mother.

Regarding the giants. The LLX places the giants height just slightly taller than me @6.5, and there are plenty of burials which support such heights which were unusual for the time period. It's only the masoretic version, and also the book of Enoch, that give the height in massive sizes, however in ancient near eastern texts numbers often served semantic purposes in primacy over their numerical representation. The giants were not the product of "Angel DNA" as often imagined. Angels can appear as fully bodied men, even to ingest food, as was the case when Abraham made a meal for them which they ate (Genesis 18:8). The author of Hebrews warns that we may entertain angels unaware by showing hospitality to strangers. Such angels were so embodied, that those in Sodom sought to have sex with them. These sons of God in Gen 6 would be angels who chose to become men and so had their own chosen DNA, just as they did in Genesis 18, however these chose to pass on that DNA. They weren't supermen, but they were ubermen, stronger, more athletic, basically what you could get today through genetic engineering. Think Khan from Star Trek: Wrath of Khan. Their spirits were mixed, from where we get unclean spirits in the NT, but their bodies were fully human.

Tony Wilmeth said:

I agree, there were angels who followed Satan and didn’t keep their first estate. Where is the sexual connection with women?

Click to expand...

Genesis 6 is the sexual connection.

Regardless of what you believe about who the sons of God were in scripture, this video featuring Tim Albirino and Gary Stearman is worth watching and very informative. The Unholy See details Tim's research into the days of Noah. That is all I will say since I don't want to spoil it.

Tellyontellyon said:

In genesis I read that there are "sons of God" who came down to Earth before the flood (In my NIV Bible.)
What is a son of God? Why are they not called angels? Or are they some other sort of heavenly being?

Click to expand...

The very “sons of God” who rule the unfallen worlds, as Adam [Luke 3:38 KJB], the first [1 Corinthians 15:45,46,47 KJB], on earth had [Genesis 1:26,28; Psalms 8:5 KJB] before his fall, and the angelic “morning stars”:

Job 1:6 KJB - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 KJB - Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 38:4 KJB - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding

Job 38:5 KJB - Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 KJB - Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 KJB - When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Side note, none of these Job texts, in regards the “sons of God”, are dealing with the Genesis 6-9 KJB account and are not referring to created heavenly beings there. Job 1:6, 2:1 KJB deals with the timeframe in a period well after the flood, and Job 38:4-7 KJB deals with the timeframe long before the flood, when the earth was created. The only texts in Job which are dealing directly with the timeframe of the flood, are Job 22:15,16,17, 26:5 KJB, and please notice it speaks of “men”.

For more on who the “sons of God” are in Genesis 6:2,4 KJB, please see Luke 3:38; Genesis 4:26 KJB, etc., and for the daughters of men, see Genesis 4:16-24 KJB.

See also the following for “sons”, “children”, “father” of the good, etc:

Genesis 6:2,4; Deuteronomy 14:1; 2 Samuel 7:14; Isaiah 8:18, 9:6, 63:16, 64:8; Hosea 1:10; Matthew 5:9,45 6:9; Luke 3:38, 6:35,36, 11:2, 20:26; John 1:12, 11:52, 12:36; Romans 1:7, 8:14,16,17,19,21, 9:8, 9:26 [citing Hosea 1:10 KJB]; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2, 6:18; Galatians 1:4, 3:26, 4:6,7; Ephesians 5:1; Philippians 1:2, 2:15, 4:20; Colossians 1:2; 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 3:11,13; 2 Thessalonians 1:1,2, 2:16; Titus 1:4; Philemon 1:3; Hebrews 2:10,13 [citing Isaiah 8:18 KJB], 12:7,9; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 1:3, 3:1,2, 5:2.

See also the following for the “sons”, “children”, “father” of the evil, etc.:

Genesis 3:15; Matthew 13:38; John 8:42,44; Acts 13:10; Romans 6:16, 9:8; Ephesians 2:2, 5:6; Colossians 3:6; Hebrews 12:8; 1 Peter 3:19 [compare to Psalms 142:7; Isaiah 42:6,7, 61:1; Luke 4:18 KJB], 3:20; 1 John 3:8,10,12, 4:4,5,6,7,8.

See the following for comparison with the Genesis 6:2,4 KJB account:

See Abraham and Isaac in Genesis 24:3,37.

See Esau and Jacob in Genesis 26:34,35, 28:8,9 [comparing to Jacob in Genesis 27:46, 28:1,6 KJB], 36:2.

See Isaac and Jacob in Genesis 27:46, 28:1,6 KJB.

See Jacob and Hamor in Genesis 34:9,14 KJB.

See Moses in Exodus 34:15,16 KJB.

See in Deuteronomy 17:17 KJB.

See Balaam in Numbers 25:1,2,3 KJB.

See in Judges 3:5,6,7 KJB.

See Samson the Judge in Judges 14:1,2,3 KJB.

See the Chronicles in 1 Chronicles 5:24,25 KJB.

See Ezra in Ezra 9:1,2,11,12 KJB.

See Nehemiah in Nehemiah 9:2, 10:28,29,30, 13:23,25,26,27 KJB.

See Solomon in 1 Kings 11:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 KJB.

Many “Sons of God” “looked”/“saw” [“saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair” and “took them wives of all which they chose” [Genesis 6:2 KJB]] and "beheld" [Just as did Samson, “she pleaseth me well”, or King David who went after Bathsheba, the wife of Uriah the Hittite and his friend, through covetousness had Uriah killed in action “from the roof he saw a woman washing herself; and the woman [was] very beautiful to look upon” [2 Samuel 11:2, 12:9 KJB] and Solomon who “multiplied wives” and “loved many strange women” and all Israel who took of the “daughters of the land”], and then “lusted and coveted” and so were ensnared being “Vex[ed], Beguiled, To Commit Trespass Against The LORD, Commit Fornication, Eat things sacrificed unto Idols, worshipped idols” [Numbers 25:18, 31:16; Revelation 2:14 KJB]:

Jude 1:11 KJB - Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

See also the words of Jesus, as it was in the days of Noah and Lot:

Job 21:7,14, 22:15,16,17; Matthew 24:37,38; Luke 17:26,27; 2 Peter 2:5, 3:3,6.

In the greater overall picture there is a like message and call for the “people of God” also today to “come out” of “Spiritual Babylon” [just as God had done with physical Babylon; Jeremiah 51:9; Isaiah 52:11 KJB] that “great harlot” [Revelation 17:1, 19:2 KJB]:

See 2 Corinthians 6:14,15,16,17,18; Revelation 18:4 KJB.

For “giants” of men, after the flood, see:

Genesis 10:8,9, 14:5, 15:20; Numbers 13:32,33; Deuteronomy 2:11,20,21, 3:11,13, 9:2; Joshua 12:4, 13:12, 15:8, 17:15, 18:16; 2 Samuel 5:18,22, 21:16,18,19,20,22; 1 Chronicles 11:23, 14:9, 20:4,5,6; Isaiah 17:5, 45:14

For “men of reknown” see:

Numbers 1:16, 16:2, 26:9; 1 Chronicles 5:24, 12:30

For more specific details see the Sons of God article.

Isaiah 14:13 KJB - For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Dualistic texts, for godly men [whose names written in heaven] and angelic beings [who physically are in/from heaven]:

Psalm 29:1 KJB - [[A Psalm of David.]] Give unto the LORD, O ye mighty, give unto the LORD glory and strength.

Psalms 89:6 KJB - For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?