Christian God encourages abstaining from sexual relations

SkyWriting · Feb 11, 2020

Nihilist Virus said:
You know it's a sad state of affairs when you redact 80% of what I said, then contradict Christ to make your point.
And again, who cares if we are or aren't allowed to do something? Christ won't come down from heaven to smite us. Evil men can repent on their deathbed and go to heaven while good men can believe the wrong religion and go to hell. "Allowed" is a joke and there's no accountability.I even made a whole thread on accountability in Christianity and no one could point to where it is. The closest one came was mentioning Purgatory, and also the notion that inhabitants of hell are punished in a system according to their deeds, but he was unable to back this up with scripture. Furthermore, it does nothing to negate the fact that there will be serial killers in heaven and decent men in hell.

Unmarried people cannot commit adultery.

Nihilist Virus · Feb 11, 2020

SkyWriting said:
Unmarried people cannot commit adultery.

Tripling down. Incredible. So are you in favor of removing Matthew 5:27-28 from the Bible?

BigV · Feb 11, 2020

2PhiloVoid said:
That's not what this statement you've chosen actually says, though, now is it? The inference here isn't that God is saying that He would give David more wives if he wanted them, but that God had protected David against Saul and removed Saul. David thereby 'inherited' Saul's wives.

the inference is exactly as it’s written. God tells David, through the prophet, that he has given him wives(!) of Saul (why no mention of males placed unde David’s care?) and condemns David’s acting on his lust and having Uriah killed by placing him where the fiercest fighting took place.

why wasn’t David told to let Bathsheeba go? Why was she accepted as David’s yet another wife?

And David had concubines but never a word from the Lord condemning concubines, was there?

no wonder you’re still a Christian.

BigV · Feb 11, 2020

Silmarien said:
Uh... I wouldn't say that David's various romantic relationships are portrayed in anywhere near a positive light. Abandonment, adultery, and then he outright has Uriah killed so that he can cover up the affair that he was having with Bathsheba.

where is the word from the Lord condemning concubines or taking Bathsheba as his yet another wife? Uriah’s killing was condemned and punished but not taking Bathsheba as his yet another wife! Bathsheba’s first child with David died as a punishment but David continued in adultery with Bathsheba and bore Solomon!

Silmarien · Feb 11, 2020

BigV said:
where is the word from the Lord condemning concubines or taking Bathsheba as his yet another wife? Uriah’s killing was condemned and punished but not taking Bathsheba as his yet another wife! Bathsheba’s first child with David died as a punishment but David continued in adultery with Bathsheba and bore Solomon!

Are you arguing that the Old Testament condones adultery? Because yikes, that is right in the Ten Commandments.

BigV · Feb 12, 2020

Silmarien said:
Are you arguing that the Old Testament condones adultery? Because yikes, that is right in the Ten Commandments.

Old Testament condemns adultery but it’s not clear how it defines adultery. Clearly God doesn’t punish people for having multiple wives and for having sexual relations with one’s servants.

On the other hand, Old Testament condemns murder white explicitly commanding the killings of all women and children of some Of the Israel’s enemies.

as a matter of fact, when Moses was given 10 commandments, Israel was worshiping a golden calf. Read up on what the Levites were told to do. Hint: take their swords and kill each his neighbor and brother. This was commanded by God who is against murder!

Silmarien · Feb 12, 2020

BigV said:
Old Testament condemns adultery but it’s not clear how it defines adultery. Clearly God doesn’t punish people for having multiple wives and for having sexual relations with one’s servants.

On the other hand, Old Testament condemns murder white explicitly commanding the killings of all women and children of some Of the Israel’s enemies.

as a matter of fact, when Moses was given 10 commandments, Israel was worshiping a golden calf. Read up on what the Levites were told to do. Hint: take their swords and kill each his neighbor and brother. This was commanded by God who is against murder!

"Read up on what the Levites were told to do"?

Do you live in some sort of alternative universe where nobody reads the Pentateuch?

Back on topic, I really don't know what you're trying to argue. There is a lot of stuff in the Old Testament that is condoned without actually being endorsed. Having a king, for one, but I would say that polygamy is another example. People do it, but it's not really the ideal offered in Genesis, and it tends to be painted in a destructive light.

As for having sexual relationships with one's servants, that's a clear misrepresentation. If you look at Deuteronomy 21:10-14, for example, you'll find that you are not actually permitted to have sexual relations with captives without first marrying them. Yes, yes, I know that's still messed up by modern standards, but noticeably more humane than the sort of rampant abuse that was the norm elsewhere in the ancient world.

BigV · Feb 12, 2020

Silmarien said:
"Read up on what the Levites were told to do"?

Do you live in some sort of alternative universe where nobody reads the Pentateuch?

Well, why the questions then? How can you ask me about Bible condoning adultery when you yourself know and quote Deut. 21:10-14? Isn't Deut. 21 a word of the Lord too?

Hence, I said it's not clear how adultery is defined. Certainly not as narrow as Jesus would define it.

Silmarien said:
As for having sexual relationships with one's servants, that's a clear misrepresentation. If you look at Deuteronomy 21:10-14, for example, you'll find that you are not actually permitted to have sexual relations with captives without first marrying them. Yes, yes, I know that's still messed up by modern standards, but noticeably more humane than the sort of rampant abuse that was the norm elsewhere in the ancient world.

NIV: Deut. 21:10 “When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, 11 and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, 12 and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails. 13 And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. 14 But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her.

Very interesting teaching from the Lord here. It seems that marriage has not been defined as a union between one man and one woman, rather it was defined as having relations. I think we can conclude that adultery was taking another man's wife, so it was similar to stealing. If the woman with which a previously married man had relations was not married, it was not adultery. So, polygamy and having concubines is not explicitly forbidden and seems to have been practiced without a punishment from the Lord, who was quick to punish offenses, such as those in Numbers 15 (that I like to bring up constantly).

Silmarien · Feb 12, 2020

BigV said:
Well, why the questions then? How can you ask me about Bible condoning adultery when you yourself know and quote Deut. 21:10-14? Isn't Deut. 21 a word of the Lord too?

You seem to think that the Bible condones the adulterous relationship between David and Bathsheba. That is crazy talk.

BigV said:
Very interesting teaching from the Lord here. It seems that marriage has not been defined as a union between one man and one woman, rather it was defined as having relations. I think we can conclude that adultery was taking another man's wife, so it was similar to stealing. If the woman with which a previously married man had relations was not married, it was not adultery. So, polygamy and having concubines is not explicitly forbidden and seems to have been practiced without a punishment from the Lord, who was quick to punish offenses, such as those in Numbers 15 (that I like to bring up constantly).

No, marriage is not defined merely as "having relations." There are a whole bunch of social and economic obligations attached to marriage.

I do not think anyone is claiming that polygamy is explicitly forbidden in the Old Testament. What I'm pointing out is that it's not really shown in a positive light. Not with Jacob, not with David, not with Solomon.

BigV · Feb 13, 2020

Silmarien said:
You seem to think that the Bible condones the adulterous relationship between David and Bathsheba. That is crazy talk.

People got married in the Old Testament by having sex. That's clear in the verse I quoted.

Regarding Bathsheba, I think you are confusing condoning and encouragement. I think condoning is same as accepting and allowing. And this is exactly what we see in the Old Testament.

Sure, the Bible doesn't encourage adultery nor polygamy, but we see that David wasn't punished for living in adultery other than his firstborn son with Bathsheba being killed. Just contrast this with Jesus' teaching. Jesus made it sound as if people who divorce and marry others are living in adultery! David did not divorce any of his wives and did not forsake any of his concubines after taking Bathsheba to be his wife.

Just contrast it what happened to the poor chap in Numbers 15. There you see a swift condemnation of the "sinful" behavior.

Silmarien said:
No, marriage is not defined merely as "having relations." There are a whole bunch of social and economic obligations attached to marriage.

I do not think anyone is claiming that polygamy is explicitly forbidden in the Old Testament. What I'm pointing out is that it's not really shown in a positive light. Not with Jacob, not with David, not with Solomon.

It's good that you agree that polygamy is not explicitly forbidden in the Old Testament. The whole point of the OP is to show that a Christian God turned sharply away from the Old Testament, all the way to asceticism or close to it.

As far as marriage definition, you are right. People had relations with concubines and wives and slaves, so it was more than an intercourse. I stand corrected on that.

ViaCrucis · Feb 18, 2020

BigV said:
Of course. I'd say based on the book of Revelations and other texts I've quoted, that the celibate state was the preferred state in Christianity.

Revelations 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. 3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. 4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste.

Revelation, singular. There is no such thing as "the book of Revelations". Or, if you want to be old school, the Apocalypse of St. John. Am I being pedantic? Yes.

-CryptoLutheran

BigV · Feb 18, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
Revelation, singular. There is no such thing as "the book of Revelations". Or, if you want to be old school, the Apocalypse of St. John. Am I being pedantic? Yes.

Book of Revelation - Wikipedia

The Book of Revelation, often called the Book of Revelations, Revelation to John, Apocalypse of John, The Revelation, or simply Revelation, the Revelation from Jesus Christ (from its opening words) or the Apocalypse, is the final book of the New Testament, and therefore also the final book of the Christian Bible.

BNR32FAN · Feb 18, 2020

BigV said:
It's no secret that Jesus was not married and he is considered a perfect human being, at a level all Christians are striving to or are supposed to be striving to.

Note what Jesus said:
Matthew 5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29. If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

This means that a young man who is looking to get married can not look at his future wife with lust, or sexual desire, lest he be committing adultery!

Sounds like a nearly impossible level to attain, except you resort to radical means of "fixing" yourself.

Matthew 19:12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”

That bolded comment is not really practiced today, but God only knows how many men have permanently damaged their reproductive function based on a literal reading of the Bible.

And, what about Paul? What does he say on the subject?

1 Cor. 7:17 Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.

....
7 Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that.

8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. 9 But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Paul echoes the teaching of Jesus, albeit in a milder form. He is not promoting castration, but permits marriage, albeit he is saying it's really for those who do not self control.

Btw, what is one fruit of the Spirit? Self Control!

FYI, just thought I'd share the teachings you won't hear in today's Bible studies. I'm glad they are not taught or practiced, but why claim to follow God and Jesus while ignoring these bits?

There are some who try to remain chastened and often end up sinning worse than they would’ve if they had just gotten married.

ViaCrucis · Feb 18, 2020

BigV said:
Book of Revelation - Wikipedia

The Book of Revelation, often called the Book of Revelations, Revelation to John, Apocalypse of John, The Revelation, or simply Revelation, the Revelation from Jesus Christ (from its opening words) or the Apocalypse, is the final book of the New Testament, and therefore also the final book of the Christian Bible.

Often, but incorrectly, called "Revelations". It's a common error.

-CryptoLutheran

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