Did Yahshua and his Disciples Abstain from Meat?

Dkh587 · Feb 17, 2020

HARK! said:
Good one!

People usually think 1 Timothy 4:1-4 is talking about teaching others to not eat unclean animals, but it’s about people forbidding the eating of clean animals. Ellen White is the main one that comes to mind. She taught that your prayers won’t go to heaven if you eat animals.

those who believe and know the truth = those who know what the Torah says about eating clean animals.

I would assume that you know we can’t pray over pigs and make them holy... pigs were never sanctified by the word of God(the Torah)

And God never created pigs to be received with thanks.

leviticus 11 goes into detail how to distinguish between which animals to eat, and which animals to not eat.

It goes without saying that the Messiah knew how to distinguish between clean and unclean, holy and unholy...

the Messiah and Apostles all grew up under the Torah, no doubt they would have eaten the Passover lamb. Why wouldn’t they? The Messiah was a grown man - he was a child and a teenager and a young man... it wouldn’t make sense that he never ate Passover lamb. God commanded Israel to eat lamb on Passover.

HARK! · Feb 17, 2020

Dkh587 said:
People usually think 1 Timothy 4:1-4 is talking about teaching others to not eat unclean animals, but it’s about people forbidding the eating of clean animals.

I had never seen it any other way. I've had problems with that verse in my churches over the years. Pork eaters seem like they're on a mission to get Torah observant people to join them. At a community meal there can be a grand buffet on the table. If you don't grab some pork; it seems like they're watching and waiting for you.

Dkh587 said:
I would assume that you know we can’t pray over pigs and make them holy... pigs were never sanctified by the word of God(the Torah)

And God never created pigs to be received with thanks.

Verse 3 defines it.

(CLV) 1Ti 4:3
forbidding to marry, abstaining from foods, which God creates to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who believe and realize the truth

Pigs aren't food.

HARK! · Feb 17, 2020

dqhall said:
Why question what a reptile is?

The answer was on page 1

Al Touthentop said:
The Hebrew scholars in 300 BC commissioned to translate the Hebrew into Greek translated it thus:

3 καὶ πᾶν ἑρπετόν, ὅ ἐστι ζῶν, ὑμῖν ἔσται εἰς βρῶσιν· ὡς λάχανα χόρτου δέδωκα ὑμῖν τὰ πάντα.

And every reptile (herpaton), which is living, to you will be food, as herbs growing I have given to you all.

Now those were the finest Hebrew scholars that could be found in Jerusalem and they specifically noted unclean animals there in that passage. That ought to settle this once for all.

HARK! · Feb 17, 2020

Dkh587 said:
leviticus 11 goes into detail how to distinguish between which animals to eat, and which animals to not eat.

Leviticus also outlines when, where, and how you can eat some of them.

(CLV) Lv 17:3
Any man from the house of Israel who slays a bull or a sheep or a goat in the camp, or who slays it outside the camp,

(CLV) Lv 17:4
and does not bring it to the opening of the tent of appointment so as to bring it near as an approach present to Yahweh before the tabernacle of Yahweh, bloodshed shall be accounted to that man. He has shed blood; hence that man will be cut off from among his people.

(CLV) Lv 17:5
This is in order that the sons of Israel may bring their sacrifices which they have been sacrificing on the surface of the field that they bring them before Yahweh, to the priest at the opening of the tent of appointment, and sacrifice them as sacrifices of peace offerings to Yahweh.

(CLV) Lv 17:6
Then the priest will sprinkle the blood against the altar of Yahweh at the opening of the tent of appointment, and he will cause the fat to fume as a fragrant odor to Yahweh.

(CLV) Lv 17:7
Not longer shall they sacrifice their sacrifices to hairy goat-demons after whom they have been prostituting. An eonian statute shall this become for them throughout their generations.

(CLV) Lv 17:8
To them you shall say: Any man from the house of Israel or from the sojourner who sojourns in your midst who should offer an ascent offering or a sacrifice

(CLV) Lv 17:9
and not bring it to the opening of the tent of appointment to offer it to Yahweh, that man will be cut off from his kinsmen.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Feb 18, 2020

ewq1938 said:
The scriptures say they killed it on the first day of unleavened bread. Are these verses wrong?

Mar_14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Mat_26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

Luk_22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.

What does the Torah say?

ewq1938 · Feb 18, 2020

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
What does the Torah say?

Let's back up a bit. Do you believe those NT scriptures are wrong?

Yeshua HaDerekh · Feb 18, 2020

ewq1938 said:
Let's back up a bit. Do you believe those NT scriptures are wrong?

Do you believe the Torah is correct?

Yeshua HaDerekh · Feb 18, 2020

HARK! said:
I won't confirm nor deny that; but I'll add that possibility to my notes.

I've gathered some evidence that it was a Chagigah; but I haven't fully studied that one out.

He either was the Lamb of God or he wasn't. Yeshua is always described as the Pesakh lamb. "For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed"

Yeshua HaDerekh · Feb 18, 2020

ewq1938 said:
The scriptures say they killed it on the first day of unleavened bread. Are these verses wrong?

Mar_14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Mat_26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

Luk_22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.

The two are quite distinct (Leviticus 23:5-6; Numbers 28:16-17; 2 Chronicles 30:15-21; Ezra 6:19-22; Mark 14:1), the Passover taking place on the 14th of Nisan, the Feast of Unleavened Bread commencing on the 15th and lasting for seven days to the 21st (Exodus 12:15). But from their close connection they are generally treated as one, both in the Old and in the New Testament...

ewq1938 · Feb 18, 2020

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Do you believe the Torah is correct?

Answering a question with a question isn't going to work with me. Either answer the question I asked you first or don't persist any further.

Here's the original question:

The scriptures say they killed it on the first day of unleavened bread. Are these verses wrong?

And the second time I asked:

Do you believe those NT scriptures are wrong?

Yeshua HaDerekh · Feb 18, 2020

ewq1938 said:
Answering a question with a question isn't going to work with me. Either answer the question I asked you first or don't persist any further.

Here's the original question:

The scriptures say they killed it on the first day of unleavened bread. Are these verses wrong?

And the second time I asked:

Do you believe those NT scriptures are wrong?

No I don't think they are wrong, just your interpretation of them are. If you understood what they say and mean, you would never ask me such a question...

Albion · Feb 18, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) 1Co 11:23
For I accepted from the Lord, what I give over also to you, that the Lord Yahshua, in the night in which He was given up, took bread (αρτον),

OK. Bread was part of the meal. That doesn't make it a Passover meal. It might make it not be Chinese take-out, but this certainly does not prove much of anything.

(CLV) 1Co 11:24
and giving thanks, breaks it and said, "This is My body, broken for your sakes. This do for a recollection of Me."

I don't think that the Lord turning bread into his own essence is part of the Passover seder. Do you?

And then we also have in that passage all that follows about the remembrance of his (impending) death and resurrection, the new covenant, etc., none of which is part of a Passover meal.

Dkh587 · Feb 18, 2020

HARK! said:
Leviticus also outlines when, where, and how you can eat some of them.

(CLV) Lv 17:3
Any man from the house of Israel who slays a bull or a sheep or a goat in the camp, or who slays it outside the camp,

(CLV) Lv 17:4
and does not bring it to the opening of the tent of appointment so as to bring it near as an approach present to Yahweh before the tabernacle of Yahweh, bloodshed shall be accounted to that man. He has shed blood; hence that man will be cut off from among his people.

(CLV) Lv 17:5
This is in order that the sons of Israel may bring their sacrifices which they have been sacrificing on the surface of the field that they bring them before Yahweh, to the priest at the opening of the tent of appointment, and sacrifice them as sacrifices of peace offerings to Yahweh.

(CLV) Lv 17:6
Then the priest will sprinkle the blood against the altar of Yahweh at the opening of the tent of appointment, and he will cause the fat to fume as a fragrant odor to Yahweh.

(CLV) Lv 17:7
Not longer shall they sacrifice their sacrifices to hairy goat-demons after whom they have been prostituting. An eonian statute shall this become for them throughout their generations.

(CLV) Lv 17:8
To them you shall say: Any man from the house of Israel or from the sojourner who sojourns in your midst who should offer an ascent offering or a sacrifice

(CLV) Lv 17:9
and not bring it to the opening of the tent of appointment to offer it to Yahweh, that man will be cut off from his kinsmen.

Wouldn’t this indicate that God approves of eating certain animals under specific conditions?

the Levites actually got a portion of the sacrifices - they got to share in the choicest of animals... goats, sheep, bullocks etc. they got to eat of the flesh of the sacrifices that were given to God.

there is much evidence of God sanctioning eating meat in the Torah alone. When Solomon dedicated the temple to God, they slaughtered thousands of animals to God and he was pleased.

it’s not until you reference sources outside of the scripture that you get a picture of eating animals being an evil/sinful action.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Feb 18, 2020

Albion said:
It might make it not be Chinese take-out, but this certainly does not prove much of anything.

That's on Christmas eve ;-)

Dkh587 · Feb 18, 2020

@HARK! another scripture to consider... Peter’s vision.

Peter told God “I’ve never eaten anything common or unclean”. He didn’t say “I’ve never eaten any animal”...

This would indicate that he had indeed eaten meat.

dqhall · Feb 18, 2020

HARK! said:
The answer was on page 1

Leviticus 11 (KJV)
29 These also shall be unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind,
30 And the ferret, and the chameleon, and the lizard, and the snail, and the mole.
31 These are unclean to you among all that creep: whosoever doth touch them, when they be dead, shall be unclean until the even.

You might also like to read Talmud Bavli and Talmud Yerushalmi. Rabbinical scholars agreed reptiles are unclean. They were of the opinion you should not eat reptiles, nor touch dead reptiles.

In Acts Peter had a vision that all God’s creatures are clean and he was ordered to go to the house of a Gentile centurion. Jews did not want to enter the homes of Gentiles for fear of being made unclean.

Nutritionists recognize some foods are carcinogenic or may contribute to risk of heart disease. Eating a slice of bacon does not create the same risk as eating hot dogs at every meal.

Pavel Mosko · Feb 18, 2020

Dkh587 said:
Wouldn’t this indicate that God approves of eating certain animals under specific conditions?

the Levites actually got a portion of the sacrifices - they got to share in the choicest of animals... goats, sheep, bullocks etc. they got to eat of the flesh of the sacrifices that were given to God.

there is much evidence of God sanctioning eating meat in the Torah alone. When Solomon dedicated the temple to God, they slaughtered thousands of animals to God and he was pleased.

it’s not until you reference sources outside of the scripture that you get a picture of eating animals being an evil/sinful action.

That actually sort of touches on a point I was going to raise at some point. In the Torah, their are a lot of lessons going. Some prohibitions and regulations had obvious health benefits especially from what we know of today. But many other ones, seemed to have symbolic and allegorical meanings. Many of the prohibited animals for instance are carrion eaters, predators etc. So there is a kind of "You are what you eat" message, where God is making a kind of commentary on the nature of sin, character etc. And this kind of insight was not lost on both the early Church as well as later Judaism.

CHURCH FATHERS: On the Jewish Meats (Novatian)

The Earliest Explanation for Kosher: Allegory in the Hellenistic World - TheTorah.com

Yeshua HaDerekh · Feb 18, 2020

dqhall said:
In Acts Peter had a vision that all God’s creatures are clean

Actually it does NOT say that...

Dkh587 · Feb 18, 2020

dqhall said:
Leviticus 11 (KJV)
29 These also shall be unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind,
30 And the ferret, and the chameleon, and the lizard, and the snail, and the mole.
31 These are unclean to you among all that creep: whosoever doth touch them, when they be dead, shall be unclean until the even.

You might also like to read Talmud Bavli and Talmud Yerushalmi. Rabbinical scholars agreed reptiles are unclean. They were of the opinion you should not eat reptiles, nor touch dead reptiles.

In Acts Peter had a vision that all God’s creatures are clean and he was ordered to go to the house of a Gentile centurion. Jews did not want to enter the homes of Gentiles for fear of being made unclean.

Nutritionists recognize some foods are carcinogenic or may contribute to risk of heart disease. Eating a slice of bacon does not create the same risk as eating hot dogs at every meal.

This is what Peter said the vision was about:

Acts 10:28

And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

he clarified further:

Acts 10:34-35

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

dqhall · Feb 18, 2020

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Actually it does NOT say that...

Acts 10:9-16 (WEB) Now on the next day as they were on their journey, and got close to the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray at about noon. 10 He became hungry and desired to eat, but while they were preparing, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and a certain container descending to him, like a great sheet let down by four corners on the earth, 12 in which were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild animals, reptiles, and birds of the sky. 13 A voice came to him, “Rise, Peter, kill and eat!”

14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.”

15 A voice came to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed, you must not call unclean.” 16 This was done three times, and immediately the vessel was received up into heaven.

Did Yahshua and his Disciples Abstain from Meat?

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