AD 622 to AD 1922 – seventh beast empire?

Christian Gedge · Feb 15, 2020

claninja said:
I'm still not finding a map that can show the exact same 10 kingdoms as the maps you have provided

My maps are simple but accurate. They show ten geopolitical regions each being of the same peoples, culture, language, history and geography. Please avoid duchys, sub-kingdoms, and conquered provinces, when looking at complicated maps.

I might add though, the kingdom of the Gepids was destroyed and replaced by the Avars in the 6th century. Ditto the Ostrogoths by the Lombards. However our count continued to be ten for nearly one hundred years.

claninja · Feb 16, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
Go back over my older posts where I said there were thirteen regions in 476 AD. The whole situation was in flux and settled into ten over the next century. Then it remained at the count of ten until the Muslims came.

I’m sorry CG, but imo this is a little too much of a stretch. It doesn’t seem to different than stating the EU is the 10 horns.

Christian Gedge said:
Some of your maps are not showing the Moorish kingdom. (formerly the Roman province of Mauretania) Add the Moors, deduct the Burgundians, deduct the Suebi, and give us a single list of 1 to 10. Done!

The maps are 6th century. The vandals held North Africa from 429ad to the 6th century when the Byzantine empire under Justinian reclaimed North Africa.hence the maps show North Africa under the Byzantine empire at 600ad. The exarchates of the Byzantine empire controlled North Africa until the late 7th century.

claninja · Feb 16, 2020

Andrewn said:
I wrote, "The Kingdom of God has been established in the 1st century." Since then, the saints have possessed the Kingdom. Of course, there is the victorious Church in heaven and the militant Church on earth which is still assaulted by kingdoms of the world. Any disagreement .

I agree. So does that mean you believe the 10 horns and little horn already fulfilled, as it is not until the judgment of the little horn that the saints possess the kingdom forever?

Andrewn · Feb 16, 2020

claninja said:
So does that mean you believe the 10 horns and little horn already fulfilled, as it is not until the judgment of the little horn that the saints possess the kingdom forever?

According to Rev 17, the 10 horns / kings were still in the future when John wrote Revelation. I believe the 10 horns and little horn prophecy has already been fulfilled. Preterists may believe they were 10 provincial governors in the 1st century including Vespasian, who was de facto governor of Judea during the Revolution (little horn?). This is only one of several possibilities. The little horn could also be Mohammed or the papacy. I leave this to the experts.

claninja · Feb 16, 2020

Andrewn said:
According to Rev 17, the 10 horns / kings were still in the future when John wrote Revelation. I believe the 10 horns and little horn prophecy has already been fulfilled. Preterists may believe they were 10 provincial governors in the 1st century including Vespasian, who was de facto governor of Judea during the Revolution (little horn?). This is only one of several possibilities. The little horn could also be Mohammed or the papacy. I leave this to the experts.

I am in absolute agreement, especially with your acknowledgment of not specifically defining the 10 horns or little horn, but believing it fulfilled. I am in the same boat.

I think this is where I get lost with the historicist position, in that it doesn’t seem to put the saints in possession of the kingdom yet.

jgr · Feb 16, 2020

claninja said:
I am in absolute agreement, especially with your acknowledgment of not specifically defining the 10 horns or little horn, but believing it fulfilled. I am in the same boat.

I think this is where I get lost with the historicist position, in that it doesn’t seem to put the saints in possession of the kingdom yet.

I understand Daniel to be referring to this kingdom:

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

2 Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Timothy 4:18
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Christ established His kingdom at His first coming, and gave it to His saints, His Church. (Luke 12:32; Hebrews 12:28)

Daniel declares that the saints will possess the kingdom at the final judgment (Daniel 7:22,27). It is the same kingdom that He gave them at His first coming, and the same kingdom that He will deliver up to His Father.

The saints have never been, and will never be, dispossessed of the Kingdom.

Andrewn · Feb 17, 2020

jgr said:
Christ established His kingdom at His first coming, and gave it to His saints, His Church. (Luke 12:32; Hebrews 12:28)

jgr said:
Daniel declares that the saints will possess the kingdom at the final judgment (Daniel 7:22,27). It is the same kingdom that He gave them at His first coming, and the same kingdom that He will deliver up to His Father.

It seems that the 2 statements above contradict each other. Christ either gives the Kingdom to his saints at the 1st coming or at the 2nd coming.

jgr · Feb 17, 2020

Andrewn said:
It seems that the 2 statements above contradict each other. Christ either gives the Kingdom to his saints at the 1st coming or at the 2nd coming.

Are the saints ever dispossessed of the Kingdom?

Andrewn · Feb 17, 2020

jgr said:
Are the saints ever dispossessed of the Kingdom?

I never thought of this. Do you believe the papacy dispossessed them? Did the saints regain the Kingdom with the Reformation? Did Dan 7:22-27 take place in the 15th century?

I have no fixed answers, I don't know

. I believe in Amil but never worked out the details and the different arguments.

jgr · Feb 17, 2020

Andrewn said:
I never thought of this. Do you believe the papacy dispossessed them? Did the saints regain the Kingdom with the Reformation? Did Dan 7:22-27 take place in the 15th century?

I have no fixed answers, I don't know . I believe in Amil but never worked out the details and the different arguments.

The true saints have never been, nor will they ever be, dispossessed of the Kingdom, which Christ established at His first coming. It is an everlasting kingdom. (Psalm 145:13; Daniel 4:3; Daniel 4:34; Daniel 7:14; Daniel 7:27; 2 Peter 1:11).

I see Daniel 7:22,26,27 being fulfilled in the final Heavenly Kingdom referred to in the references in post 66. The other verses I see fulfilled, as did the Reformers, in the apostate papacy over the centuries of its emergence and domination.

claninja · Feb 17, 2020

jgr said:
Christ established His kingdom at His first coming, and gave it to His saints, His Church. (Luke 12:32; Hebrews 12:28)

jgr said:
I understand Daniel to be referring to this kingdom:

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

2 Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Timothy 4:18
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Christ established His kingdom at His first coming, and gave it to His saints, His Church. (Luke 12:32; Hebrews 12:28)

Daniel declares that the saints will possess the kingdom at the final judgment (Daniel 7:22,27). It is the same kingdom that He gave them at His first coming, and the same kingdom that He will deliver up to His Father.

The saints have never been, and will never be, dispossessed of the Kingdom.

Thanks JGR, this is a very good explanation.

This is consistent with the kingdom being prepared from the foundation of the world for His people. The saints have never dispossessed the kingdom, because it has always been theirs, through Christ, since the foundation of the world.

Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

I view the kingdom in 2 fold, and follow Christ's template. 1.) While Christ was in the flesh, the kingdom was present (matthew 12:28). 2.) When Christ died and rose again, he ascended to the Father to receive the kingdom (Luke 19:12, Daniel 7:13-14). I believe this kingdom to have already been Christ's since the foundation of the world.

I believe we, those in Christ, follow this same template: 1.) The kingdom is a present reality. It is the gospel being spread like a Sower sowing good seed. It is the gospel gathering the good and the bad. It is gospel starting out as a small mustard seed but growing into the largest garden plant. It is peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 2.) Thus while I have been translated into this kingdom and am experiencing its benefits: forgiveness of sins, regeneration through the Spirit, etc....My flesh and blood cannot inherit this kingdom, thus it is upon the resurrection and ascension to the Father, just as Christ did, our forerunner, that I inherit the kingdom (matthew 25:34, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54). This kingdom was always ours in Christ since the foundation of the world.

I find it no mere coincidence that most believe we go to heaven upon death. I also find it no mere coincidence that most believe this transition of our ascension to heaven up on death occurred in the 1st century during the 4th kingdom.

Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

jgr · Feb 17, 2020

claninja said:
Thanks JGR, this is a very good explanation.

This is consistent with the kingdom being prepared from the foundation of the world for His people. The saints have never dispossessed the kingdom, because it has always been theirs, through Christ, since the foundation of the world.

Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

I view the kingdom in 2 fold, and follow Christ's template. 1.) While Christ was in the flesh, the kingdom was present (matthew 12:28). 2.) When Christ died and rose again, he ascended to the Father to receive the kingdom (Luke 19:12, Daniel 7:13-14). I believe this kingdom to have already been Christ's since the foundation of the world.

I believe we, those in Christ, follow this same template: 1.) The kingdom is a present reality. It is the gospel being spread like a Sower sowing good seed. It is the gospel gathering the good and the bad. It is gospel starting out as a small mustard seed but growing into the largest garden plant. It is peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 2.) Thus while I have been translated into this kingdom and am experiencing its benefits: forgiveness of sins, regeneration through the Spirit, etc....My flesh and blood cannot inherit this kingdom, thus it is upon the resurrection and ascension to the Father, just as Christ did, our forerunner, that I inherit the kingdom (matthew 25:34, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54). This kingdom was always ours in Christ since the foundation of the world.

I find it no mere coincidence that most believe we go to heaven upon death. I also find it no mere coincidence that most believe this transition of our ascension to heaven up on death occurred in the 1st century during the 4th kingdom.

Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

And thank you, Claninja.

Christian Gedge · Feb 17, 2020

claninja said:
I find it no mere coincidence that most believe we go to heaven upon death. I also find it no mere coincidence that most believe this transition of our ascension to heaven up on death occurred in the 1st century during the 4th kingdom.

eh?

claninja · Feb 19, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
eh?

If Christ went to heaven to inherit the kingdom (Daniel 7:13-14, Luke 19:12), then is it not heaven where believers co inherit the kingdom with Christ?

A lot of Christianity believes those in Christ go to heaven upon death, thus they never die

A lot of Christianity believes that the transition of believers going to heaven upon death instead of hades/the grave/etc....took place in the 1st century, which would have been during the 4th kingdom (rome)

Thus there has been 4 kingdoms (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome), but since the 1st century (the 4th kingdom) the saints have been going home to be with the Lord.

Regardless of what one believes about the resurrection and its timing, I find it really interesting that so much of Christianity already believes they are caught up to God upon physical death, which is consistent with the general resurrection occurring, and then AFTER that those who are alive are then caught up to God.

Christian Gedge · Feb 19, 2020

So, you are espousing a Preterist position. May I insert what I believe is your ‘resurrection timing.’ Just say so if I’ve misrepresented any point.

Jesus inherited the kingdom at his ascension to the Father. AD 30
He returned in AD 70 when the kingdom was fully removed from Israel.
Till then saints were in the grave, but rose in AD 70 to co-inherit the kingdom with Christ.
Since then each individual death and going to heaven is (for us) our ‘general resurrection.’
Therefore, there is no future mass resurrection of our mortal bodies.

I'll explain my view shortly.

Christian Gedge · Feb 20, 2020

claninja said:
I think this is where I get lost with the historicist position, in that it doesn’t seem to put the saints in possession of the kingdom yet.

If the above Preterist position is how you view things, here is the Historicist position to compare. We don’t have to agree at every point, but at least we can understand each other better.

Jesus and the Church inherited the kingdom when the covenant was confirmed during the 70th week. AD 27-34
The Jews lost their ‘kingdom’ status after the 70th week, so Gods grace until AD 70 does not infer a gradual transfer to the New Covenant kingdom.
Throughout the Church Age, prophecy continued to be fulfilled, and the kingdom continued in the saints possession, although regularly facing trials.
Toward the end of the Church age a tribulation of particular severity will be unleashed but fail. The fullness of the kingdom will realised after that.
When Christians die, their soul/spirit lives consciously in heaven and their body goes to the grave.
Jesus will return visibly, conspicuously and accompanied by angels. There will be a resurrection of our mortal bodies. They will be changed into immortal and united with our spirit.

claninja · Feb 21, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
So, you are espousing a Preterist position. May I insert what I believe is your ‘resurrection timing.’ Just say so if I’ve misrepresented any point.

Jesus inherited the kingdom at his ascension to the Father. AD 30

He returned in AD 70 when the kingdom was fully removed from Israel.

Till then saints were in the grave, but rose in AD 70 to co-inherit the kingdom with Christ.

Since then each individual death and going to heaven is (for us) our ‘general resurrection.’

Therefore, there is no future mass resurrection of our mortal bodies.

I'll explain my view shortly.

Close, but I differ on some of your points.

1.) Yes, Jesus received the kingdom upon His ascension to the Father as testified by scripture (daniel 7:13-14, Luke 19:12).

2.) Yes, the vineyard owner came to destroy the wicked tenants and fully remove the kingdom from them (matthew 21:41-45).

3.) Yes, until the destruction and complete removal of the old obsolete covenant, the way into the Holy places was not yet manifested and thus the saints remained the grave/hades/etc... (hebrews 9:8-9, 1 corinthians 15:6,18,20).

4.) Since then, blessed is he who dies in the Lord from now on (revelation 14:13). Paul splits the general resurrection from those who are alive. First it is all the dead that rise to meet the Lord in the air, THEN AFTER THAT those who are alive are caught up to the Lord (1 thessalonians 4:14-17).

5.) No, there is still a future mass resurrection. There are still around 2 billion Christians in flesh and blood in the world today who have not gone home to heaven to be with the Lord, you and I are of them.

Christian Gedge · Feb 21, 2020

claninja said:
Close, but I differ on some of your points.

Thank you for explaining clearly. Never-the-less I am uneasy with the similarity to full preterism. Too close IMO.

claninja said:
No, there is still a future mass resurrection. There are still around 2 billion Christians in flesh and blood in the world today who have not gone home to heaven to be with the Lord, you and I are of them.

Therefore, there is no future mass resurrection of the mortal bodies of those that have been buried - only those that are alive and remain. OK, but like I say, too close to full preterism.

AD 622 to AD 1922 – seventh beast empire?

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