The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

nolidad · Feb 16, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Just curious about the ingredients. (may need to purge my kitchen) What is the Jewish feast where they look for any yeast in the house? Passover?

Well it is part of the 8 days of passover! But it is formally called Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Jews of Jesus day considered all 8 days part of Passover. that is why the priests did not enter Pilates hall, because it was the day of preperation (removing leaven from the house) and to enter a gentiles home would ceremonially defile them for the feast!

Saint Steven · Feb 16, 2020

nolidad said:
Yes they do say what they say- and they all refer to this life not some unwritten ability to repent in the after life! That is commentary by some malinformed teachers.

And they are only an anomoly because you have been taught to read them out of biblical context.

That's nonsense. Here they are below.
You say:
- they all refer to this life
- out of biblical context

However, we agree that they say what they say.
But what do they say?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Saint Steven · Feb 16, 2020

nolidad said:
So then hot tub is not an idiom for th epurifying fire you think the lake is? If you do then you are implying all are lost! Kind of teh Catholic purgatory!

I think both Annihilationism and Purgatory theories were dialed-back from the horror of Damnationism. Purgatory is close to what I had in mind. A chance to purge any baggage that needs to go. Not a burning of a person, but of their issues. (results of sin) There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Like burning chaff, the grain is unharmed.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 ESV
Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Saint Steven · Feb 16, 2020

nolidad said:
As MMsparks said from GODS WORD Those that are unjust are unjust still.

Are you calling an English translation of the Bible "GODS WORD"?

Saint Steven · Feb 16, 2020

nolidad said:
Correct you are!

Not every one is called to Christ! Because everyone who is called (dragged) comes to Christ and all who come to Him He will not cast out!

There may be hope for you after all.

Saint Steven · Feb 16, 2020

nolidad said:
Just so you know- each Greek verb can have as many as 580 endings, each giving a nuanced difference over the base word you will see in a concordance!!!

Are you blowing smoke up my blue ephod again? - lol

Der Alte · Feb 16, 2020

Saint Steven said:
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

John also wrote the following which shows that John did NOT believe that all mankind would be saved righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death.

1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1 Jn 2:17 he that does NOT the will of God abides NOT for ever.
1 Jn 3:10 the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.
1 Jn 5:12 he that has not the Son of God has not life.
When John wrote 1 Jn 2: 2 do you think he forgot what he wrote in the other verses or vice versa?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The Greek word translated "may have mercy" is in the subjunctive mood the mood of possibility and potentiality it may or may not happen.
If Paul had meant that it was a done deal he would have written it in the future active indicative as he did in Rom 9:9, 1 Cor 7:28

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive

.

Paul wrote "in Christ" NOT "by Christ." All mankind is "in Adam" because all mankind are direct, literal descendants of Adam but not all mankind is in Christ.
What did Paul mean by "in Christ?"

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Not in Christ, no redemption.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Not in Christ and walk after the flesh, condemnation.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Not in Christ, the veil is not taken away.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Not in Christ, not a new creature, old things are not passed away.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Not in Christ, not gathered together.

Ephesian 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Not in Christ, still afar off, not nigh.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Not in Christ, do not obtain salvation, no eternal glory.
Also in three separate letters Paul identified several groups who have no inheritance in Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17
(17) If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

FineLinen · Feb 16, 2020

nolidad said:
But everlasting "punishing" is clear in the bible when you study it out!

The God of Noli= a loving father who fails in his punishment of his children. Because he loves them, the good, bad & ugly, he must punish them for the endless ages upon ages upon ages with one purpose only, punishment with no option of change & transformation.

Please welcome what Abba is NOT!

He Knows My Name by The Maranatha Singers

Der Alte · Feb 16, 2020

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
The God of Noli= a loving father who fails in his punishment of his children. Because he loves them, the good, bad & ugly, he must punish them for the endless ages upon ages upon ages with one purpose only, punishment with no option of change & transformation.
Please welcome what Abba is NOT!

When people post their opinions without providing any scriptural support said opinions are about as compelling as the scribbles on a public facility wall.

Hillsage · Feb 16, 2020

Saint Steven said:
That depends on whether the Israelites crossed the Red Sea, or the Reed Sea. - lol
Imagine all the cool stuff they could have collected along the way.

I don't guess I would have considered the Reed Sea theory as all that deep. :scratch:

Hillsage · Feb 16, 2020

Der Alter said:
When people post their opinions without providing any scriptural support said opinions are about as compelling as the scribbles on a public facility wall.

The only way to make this funnier would have been if you'd read your post before you sent it. ^_^

Saint Steven · Feb 16, 2020

Hillsage said:
I don't guess I would have considered the Reed Sea theory as all that deep.

Cattails anyone?

Saint Steven · Feb 16, 2020

Brad Jersak - 'A More Christlike God' Conference (Part 1) - Altona, Manitoba, Canada (19.02.2015) A seminar presented at Seeds Church Altona, Canada on February 19-21, 2016

Der Alte · Feb 16, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Brad Jersak - 'A More Christlike God' Conference (Part 1) - Altona, Manitoba, Canada (19.02.2015) A seminar presented at Seeds Church Altona, Canada on February 19-21, 2016

This reminds me of a joke I heard/read some years ago. Two fellows who had been imbibing were driving around lost and without being aware of it drove across the Canadian border. They stopped to ask directions. They asked a local where they were he answered "Altona, Manitoba." One of the fellows turned to the other one and said "See we're so lost and drove so far they don't even speak English."

FineLinen · Feb 17, 2020

nolidad said:
But everlasting "punishing" is clear in the bible when you study it out! ...Maybe it is time you go past just a basic dictionary like Strongs and go into more advanced linguistic tools.

Exciting information indeed! Was it your "advanced linguistic tools" that brought you to such a wonderful conclusion, or the Father whom the Saviour of the all revealed as Dearest Daddy?

Maybe it is a combination of both, with dokeó & mataiotes added to the atrocious linguistic tools.

Saint Steven · Feb 17, 2020

From today's Thomas Allin reading.

The restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah from "eternal" fire

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”

Ezekiel 16:53
“‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

Saint Steven · Feb 17, 2020

From today's Thomas Allin reading.

The restoration of Ammon and Moab

Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”

Jeremiah 25:22, 27
21 Edom, Moab and Ammon; ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Jeremiah 49:6
“Yet afterward, I will restore the fortunes of the Ammonites,”
declares the Lord.

Jeremiah 48:4, 47
4 Moab will be broken;
her little ones will cry out.
47 “Yet I will restore the fortunes of Moab
in days to come,”
declares the Lord.
Here ends the judgment on Moab.

Saint Steven · Feb 17, 2020

From today's Thomas Allin reading.

The restoration of Elam

Jeremiah 25:25, 27
25 all the kings of Zimri, Elam and Media; ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Jeremiah 49:39
“Yet I will restore the fortunes of Elam
in days to come,”
declares the Lord.

FineLinen · Feb 17, 2020

Dear Saint: Our God is the God of restoration.

The koine katallage signifies not atonement (at-one-ment) but reconciliation. Katallage means to restore to an unimpaired position of conciliation, literally to bring into accord & harmony.

Our God is bringing His creation back to at-one-ment!

FineLinen · Feb 17, 2020

The majority of Christians normally believe that the consequence of sins (if people are not covered by the blood of Christ) is to be burnt in hell for all eternity, while others think sinners will be annihilated in flames of judgment.

It may come as a surprise to learn that the Bible nowhere teaches that every unrepentant sinner will burn in hell. It does say there is a lake of fire which will exist at the end of the Millennium (Revelation 20:10), but that does not teach that all present day sinners will be consigned to it. Nor does the Bible say that sinners will live within an inferno for all eternity.

The very opposite is true. The Bible says the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), not to live for eternity.

Everlasting life is a gift from God; it is not something inherent within man (Romans 6:23). What the Bible does show, and shows very clearly, is that the penalty for unforgiven sins is death. God will determine the necessary means by which the deaths of unrepentant sinners will occur. And He will not use fire in every case to bring about such deaths.

Is There Eternal Fire?

It can be shown from biblical examples that hell fire is not eternal and that the penalty for un repentant sin is not to burn in hell forever. Let us look at some modern examples which have a legal basis for punishment associated with them that reflect the judicial sentences for sins or crimes mentioned in the Bible.

Suppose you ran a stop light with your automobile and were apprehended by the police.

When brought before the judge, he fined you $50 or five days in jail. The wages of your particular "sin" (in this case) was $50. But let us suppose you had no money in your pocket to pay the fine. If so, you would then be liable to spend the five days in jail.

"And the judge [shall] deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto you [said Christ], thou shall by no means come out thence, till thou has paid the uttermost farthing."

• Against Celsus, 6:26

Every part of the sentence rendered by the judge must be met in full!

However, let us say you had a friend who accompanied you to court and that he had that amount of cash on him. He took the $50 out of his wallet and paid your fine in full. Since he did this for you, you would be able to walk out of the court with your penalty fully met. But only if the complete amount were given to the clerk of the court would you be free. The Bible, as shown in the quote by Christ given above, supports the legitimacy of this example even in the sense of divine judgment. The point is: someone else paid your debt for you, but the person had to pay for your debt to society in full.

Let us now give an example of a more serious crime — say a felony was committed.

The judge might say the wages of such a "sin" is twenty years in prison. In this case it would not be possible in our Western courts for some friend to take your place and go to prison for you (nor would a simple monetary fine be allowable), but the theological teaching of the Bible would permit a person to take your place. This may seem absurd on the surface, but it is nevertheless true. The Bible, in the matter of paying the penalty for sins against the Deity [not, however, against man], allows for vicarious payment. That is what the law of offering animals for sins was all about. The animal paid the penalty (in a symbolic way) instead of the person (Leviticus 16:30, 34). This, of course, would not be sanctioned in our modern courts, but suppose the judge said "twenty years" and a person were legally able to represent the felon. If so, the substitute would have to meet the full penalty of the law, "until the uttermost farthing be paid."

The Biblical Teaching of Hell by Ernest L. Martin

The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

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