The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

Saint Steven

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The takeaway point being 'God doesn't want us to just be Fundamentalist FRUITcake seekers any more than he wants us to just look Charismatic 'GIFThorses in the mouth'. The admonition of the "spiritual brethren" (gifts is purely added) in 1Cor 12:1 is just this; the true spiritual gifted brethren will seek both/and Fruit/Spirit. That was the symbolic truth of chapters 12/gifts, 13 fruit, 14 gifts. IOW a bell and a pomegranate and a bell.
"Fundamentalist FRUITcake" - that is so funny. - lol
Do you have a recipe? (lol)
 
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Saint Steven

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Wrong. He calls to everyone. At whatever level of light they have. It is up to them to respond or not. And it is up to us to get His message to those who haven't heard His name and teach them. Then the end will come.

Rom_1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
That's a contradictory statement.
How can everyone have been called when there are "those who haven't heard His name"?

Saint Steven said:
There are countless billions for whom that is not true. Billions that have never heard the name of Christ nor have any concept of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
 
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mmksparbud

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That's a contradictory statement.
How can everyone have been called when there are "those who haven't heard His name"?

Saint Steven said:
There are countless billions for whom that is not true. Billions that have never heard the name of Christ nor have any concept of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

It's not contradictory. Everyone has heard God's voice, his conscience is the Holy Spirit. He doesn't call Himself Jesus. There was an Eskimo who heard that voice, he called it The Heavenly Grandfather---long before there was a whiter man, he heard it and followed it. So have others.
Maniilaq, the Eskimo Prophet


Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
 
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FineLinen

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It's not contradictory. Everyone has heard God's voice...

Nonsense! ! !

Everyone has NOT heard the voice of the Lord. If & when they do, there is radical change & transformation.

Radical

 
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Hillsage

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Wrong. He calls to everyone. At whatever level of light they have. It is up to them to respond or not. And it is up to us to get His message to those who haven't heard His name and teach them. Then the end will come.
what a wonderful....unscriptural Opinion. Please give an verse that actually applies to your opinion. Here’s mine.

KJV Act 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained/Tasso to eternal life believed.

Weymouth Translation. Act 13:48
The Gentiles listened with delight and extolled the Lord's Message; and all who were pre-destined/Tasso to the Life of the Ages believed.

It appears that this Greek word for “ordained and PRE-destined” don’t agree with your opinion.

5021 tasso tas'-so a prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot):--addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.

So, since I will be accountable to HIs WORD and not the OPINIONS of indoctrinated men; you need a better verse.

Rom_1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Absolutely true. Unfortunately it has nothing to do with proving your opinion that ALL are called in this age to bend the knee and confess.
 
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Saint Steven

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It's not contradictory. Everyone has heard God's voice, his conscience is the Holy Spirit.
Our conscience informs us about right and wrong. There is no directive in that for salvation through Jesus Christ. Billions will need to settle this issue in the afterlife. (under the earth - Philippians 2:10-11)
 
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Hillsage

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Dear Sage: Do you know how the rich colours were produced on the robes of the priests ministering to the Holy One?

Deep sea diving to gather murex marine snails. And those snails hypobranchial glands were dried, ground and pulverized to produce the deep colours on the high priestly garments.
No, I have never heard that before. And, being the thinker that I am, the question arises as to just where this information came from? I ask because there was no "deep sea" in the wilderness when Moses was given the instructions for building the temple and making the garments. Was there?
 
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Hillsage

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"Fundamentalist FRUITcake" - that is so funny. - lol
Do you have a recipe? (lol)
Oh dear brother, yes I do. :) Unfortunately you have to be doctrinally half blind to make it. And you also have to throw in a dose of "double minded" thinking to preserve it for the little 'ever forth coming' church progeny. But dear brother Steve, I'm really not sure what you would want that recipe for. We've been getting sick, just from 'them' eating it for a couple hundred years. :(
 
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FineLinen

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No, I have never heard that before. And, being the thinker that I am, the question arises as to just where this information came from? I ask because there was no "deep sea" in the wilderness when Moses was given the instructions for building the temple and making the garments. Was there?

Dear Sage: I cannot remember where this critical information has come (LOL). With my mind fast moving in the direction as the rest of me I must leave those poor snails alone (for now).

The Priests Of The Lord

The Priestly Garments (Bible History Online)
 
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Hillsage

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Nonsense! ! !

Everyone has NOT heard the voice of the Lord.

YET

Scripture confirms the above FL. It is not 'the BIBLE' which is the SPOKEN WORD OF GOD.

ISA 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

If every one has HEARD, then everyone would be saved, just as you believe FL.

And it is the SPOKEN word that ALWAYS leads to confession for salvation.

For "FAITH comes from hearing a RHEMA/word"....not a written LOGOS, like the BIBLE.
 
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mmksparbud

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Nonsense! ! !

Everyone has NOT heard the voice of the Lord. If & when they do, there is radical change & transformation.

Radical


We have the free will to refuse it, I did, I know of others of also have, including my 2 brothers. Apparently also you did not go to the link provided. OK--You post your junk video's and other garbage and don't even check out one link--Pathetic.
You guys just have no comprehension of free will, nor how God works. Ignorance is bliss I suppose, you will have to find out the hard way.
Bottom line is, no-one has posted anything of value on this or any other of your posts. And you have no interest in knowing what the truth of the bible is. You want there to be a 2nd chance after death, you'll have to find out there isn't one when you get there. There comes a time when all one can do is---

Luk_9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
 
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FineLinen

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We have the free will to refuse it, I did, I know of others of also have, including my 2 brothers.

Mankind is a will. There is no animal in Abba's world that is a "free will." There is the Will of all wills before whom every wee will shall bow!

Every little will has been made subject to futility/slavery>>>

NOT WILLINGLY!
 
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FineLinen

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Scripture confirms the above FL. It is not 'the BIBLE' which is the SPOKEN WORD OF GOD.

ISA 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

If every one has HEARD, then everyone would be saved, just as you believe FL.

And it is the SPOKEN word that ALWAYS leads to confession for salvation.

For "FAITH comes from hearing a RHEMA/word"....not a written LOGOS, like the BIBLE.

Dear Sage: I love the Scriptures. I love the living, breathing wind words of the Living One much more. There are red letters, there are black letters, there are white spaces between the lines. It is there the Living One dwells, between the lines speaking from beyond the veil.
 
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nolidad

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Due to the obvious bias.
The scriptures I quote seem like an anomaly in comparison. But they are still scripture and say what they say.

Yes they do say what they say- and they all refer to this life not some unwritten ability to repent in the after life! That is commentary by some malinformed teachers.

And they are only an anomoly because you have been taught to read them out of biblical context.

Here's a shocker.
In the Q&A at the end he reveals that he is an Annihilationist. But a very sympathetic Restorationist. (only a matter of time, I would say)

So he is an acolyte of Charles Taze Russells view of SCripture. I did not go into the Q&A as I did not think he would teach further.

You shared with us that you have changed your views over the years, but then you state your current view as absolute. Why is that?

Because if I believe in something I do not believe is true- they have hospitals and white coats with long sleeves for that kind of mental disorder! There are many things in Scripture I cannot declare with absoluteness. In my teaching adults I let them know if it is my opinion or that I am not sure with absoluteness. But everlasting "punishing" is clear in the bible when you study it out!

Based on what?

Saint Steven said:
Thanks. That doesn't sound like a forced confession to me. Thus proving my point. Right? (whole-heartedly and without reservation)

Saint Steven said:
I gave you the definition from Strong's.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Maybe it is time you go past just a basic dictionary like Strongs and go into more advanced linguistic tools.

Transliteration
exomologeō
Pronunciation
eks-o-mo-lo-ge'-ō ἐκ (G1537) and ὁμολογέω (G3670)
Greek Inflections of ἐξομολογέω ἐξομολογεῖσθε — 1x
ἐξομολογήσεται — 1x
ἐξομολογήσηται — 1x
ἐξομολογήσομαί — 1x
ἐξομολογήσομαι — 1x
Ἐξομολογοῦμαί — 2x
ἐξομολογούμενοι — 3x
ἐξωμολόγησεν — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: confess (8x), thank (2x), promise (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to confess

  2. to profess

    1. acknowledge openly and joyfully

    2. to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to

    3. to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage
Once again you need to show why you skip past the first and primary usage and go to the second!

From Thayers LEXICON which goes a little deeper:

omologeo--
Strong's Number: 3670 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
omologeo from a compound of the base of (3674) and (3056)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Homologeo 5:199,687
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
hom-ol-og-eh'-o Verb
Definition
  1. to say the same thing as another, i.e. to agree with, assent
  2. to concede
    1. not to refuse, to promise
    2. not to deny
      1. to confess
      2. declare
      3. to confess, i.e. to admit or declare one's self guilty of what one is accused of
    3. And of course I hope you know Ex (ek) is simply a prefix that means after or out.
 
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nolidad

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I didn't say that. Jesus said we will ALL be salted with fire.

Saint Steven said:
All of Damnationism will have to answer for their character assassination of our loving Father. Fortunately for them, it will only mean more time in the hot tub, not the eternal torment they accuse God of.

So then hot tub is not an idiom for th epurifying fire you think the lake is? If you do then you are implying all are lost! Kind of teh Catholic purgatory!
 
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Saint Steven

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No, I have never heard that before. And, being the thinker that I am, the question arises as to just where this information came from? I ask because there was no "deep sea" in the wilderness when Moses was given the instructions for building the temple and making the garments. Was there?
That depends on whether the Israelites crossed the Red Sea, or the Reed Sea. - lol
Imagine all the cool stuff they could have collected along the way.
 
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nolidad

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If there is nothing to correct in the final judgment, then there is nothing to correct in the first judgment. That seems ridiculous, right? Oh course there is something to correct in the final judgment. All that was not corrected earlier.

Well you are correct. Because the final judgment is a disposition set and sentence executed based on the crimes of the individual!

As MMsparks said from GODS WORD Those that are unjust are unjust still.

Rev 21:27

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

REMEMBER THOSE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE ARE DONE SO AFTER GOD HIMSELF DESTROYS DEATH AND THE GRAVE!

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Rev 20:14

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Now however you want to make symbols- death and the grave are destroyed by God and then those whose name are not found in the Lambs book of Life (not to be confused with the book of life) are thrown into that lake!

There is a far greater case for cessationism, if you only read the English or use the base definition of the Greek, than . However, once one studies to show themselves--- they realize that perishing and destruction, shall not see life, etc..... while on the surface look like annihilationism, but it is found much different when looked at in the Greek Language and how words are used!

Just so you know- each Greek verb can have as many as 580 endings, each giving a nuanced difference over the base word you will see in a concordance!!!
 
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Saint Steven

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Oh dear brother, yes I do. :) Unfortunately you have to be doctrinally half blind to make it. And you also have to throw in a dose of "double minded" thinking to preserve it for the little 'ever forth coming' church progeny. But dear brother Steve, I'm really not sure what you would want that recipe for. We've been getting sick, just from 'them' eating it for a couple hundred years. :(
Just curious about the ingredients. (may need to purge my kitchen) What is the Jewish feast where they look for any yeast in the house? Passover?
 
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nolidad

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That's a contradictory statement.
How can everyone have been called when there are "those who haven't heard His name"?

Saint Steven said:
There are countless billions for whom that is not true. Billions that have never heard the name of Christ nor have any concept of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Correct you are!

Not every one is called to Christ! Because everyone who is called (dragged) comes to Christ and all who come to Him He will not cast out!
 
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