The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

Saint Steven said:

All is defined as everyone and everything, not "unconditionally and unequivocally".
Conditions will definitely apply.

And honestly, you should ask polite questions rather than throwing false accusations.

Saint Steven said: ↑
No.

No one said anything about "unconditionally and unequivocally".

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Was it too much for you to offer what the conditions are, seeing how my initial statement warranted it?

nolidad said:

Did you look at what you just wrote???????????????????????????????????????????????????
GODS INSPIRED WORD IS BIASED TOWARDS ETERNAL DAMNATION!!!!

So God inspired eternal damnation and you have a problem with God doing that! I know I would prefer restorationsim with all my heart. The thought of someone being tormented forever for rejecting Christ is a very scary thought! But I have to let the Word speak without my bias to form doctrine.

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Do all the English translations agree? (nope)

Saint Steven said: ↑
The Bible is a Damnationist biased text.
It would be like me trying to prove a theory of trigonometry with an algebra book.
Not sure if that analogy works or not.

nolidad said:

The thought of someone being tormented forever for rejecting Christ is a very scary thought! But I have to let the Word speak without my bias to form doctrine.

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There you go. Does that fit the character of God?

mmksparbud said:

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

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How would this be interpreted from a Restorationist point of view?

- We come as we are.
- Jesus will REWARD by GIVING to each according to their work. Rewards and gifts. Nice.
- Jesus is the beginning and the end. The end is in him, not in destruction.

DNB said:

Was it too much for you to offer what the conditions are, seeing how my initial statement warranted it?

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The only thing warranted was a boot in the rear, or a whack to the head.
Evidently you have forgotten where this discussion began. Here it is AGAIN.
Each one will come to the place of acknowledging Jesus Christ as Lord. (Phil.2:11) No one can do that except by the Holy Spirit. (1Cor.12:3) If you do that, you will be saved. (Rom.10:9)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

nolidad said:

People can make the bible say anything it wants.

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What's to say that you aren't doing that now?
Even you admit to changing your views over the years. Were you making the Bible say what you wanted to back then? (now that you know better, and may change your mind yet again)

Saint Steven said:

How would this be interpreted from a Restorationist point of view?

- We come as we are.
- Jesus will REWARD by GIVING to each according to their work. Rewards and gifts. Nice.
- Jesus is the beginning and the end. The end is in him, not in destruction.

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Destruction is His choice to make and He has the right to do so. You have a lifetime in which to make your decision.
Mat_12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Rom_9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

mmksparbud said:

Destruction is His choice to make and He has the right to do so. You have a lifetime in which to make your decision.
Mat_12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Rom_9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

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Can we make a decision without the Holy Spirit drawing us?

John 6:44 ESV
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 12:32 ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Saint Steven said:

Can we make a decision without the Holy Spirit drawing us?

John 6:44 ESV
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 12:32 ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

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We can make a decision against the Holy Spirit. And then the Holy Spirit has been grieved away and we no longer can hear Him. That is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The acknowledgment of the lost to bow before the Lord is not made from love through the Holy Spirit. It is a mental acknowledgement that God is the Supreme authority, and there is no other God. They are not being led by the Holy Spirit, merely acknowledging the truth for the simple reason that standing before them, in His full, unveiled glory is God and Jesus Christ and there is no other thing they can say. They had been drawn to God on earth but rejected Him, now they stand in judgment by Him.
Mat_12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

FineLinen said:

Dear Lord: please send in the clowns.

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He already did. You've all been putting on a show. And that guy expresses my feelings about universalism very well.

FineLinen said:

Dear Lord: please send in the clowns.

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Too late. - lol

mmksparbud said:

We can make a decision against the Holy Spirit. And then the Holy Spirit has been grieved away and we no longer can hear Him. That is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The acknowledgment of the lost to bow before the Lord is not made from love through the Holy Spirit. It is a mental acknowledgement that God is the Supreme authority, and there is no other God. They are not being led by the Holy Spirit, merely acknowledging the truth for the simple reason that standing before them, in His full, unveiled glory is God and Jesus Christ and there is no other thing they can say. They had been drawn to God on earth but rejected Him, now they stand in judgment by Him.
Mat_12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

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We disagree on many points. As you are well aware.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit requires speaking against the Holy Spirit. As the scripture you quoted states.

Earlier in the chapter we read that the Pharisees were attributing the work of the Holy Spirit (casting out demons) to Satan. This is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:24 ESV
But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.”

Saint Steven said:

The only thing warranted was a boot in the rear, or a whack to the head.
Evidently you have forgotten where this discussion began. Here it is AGAIN.
Each one will come to the place of acknowledging Jesus Christ as Lord. (Phil.2:11) No one can do that except by the Holy Spirit. (1Cor.12:3) If you do that, you will be saved. (Rom.10:9)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

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Ok simpleton, so that's it, the lake of Fire transforms every one to become confessors of Christ Jesus.
Glory to God, all the atrocities of life, and the death of the martyrs, meaningless.
Hitler & Paul Bernado & Jeffrey Dahmer, will all be saints in heaven, let's tell that to their victims.
All Paul's suffering & efforts to saved the lost, yet him & Nero, Decius & Diocletian will be walking hand in hand in heaven.
Jesus & Satan having tea & cookies in heaven.
Here's a smack to you right across your head, anti-christ!

Saint Steven said:

We disagree on many points. As you are well aware.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit requires speaking against the Holy Spirit. As the scripture you quoted states.

Earlier in the chapter we read that the Pharisees were attributing the work of the Holy Spirit (casting out demons) to Satan. This is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:24 ESV
But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.”

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When you reject the Holy Spirit you are speaking against it! You are refusing Him into your life! You refuse to hear Him. You therefore end up without any resource to God. You stand without God or any way to get to Him for you have turned away the only way to Him. Jesus can not reach you. You have placed ear plugs over your ears--covered your heart with cement. And He will leave you to your choice.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

FineLinen said:

Dear Lord: please send in the clowns.

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But you've already arrived?

FineLinen said:

Dear Saint: Before you ask I will answer and while you are yet speaking I will hear. It is so difficult attempting to get ahead of Abba in our prayers.

This is a magnificent circus. Where is the circus guy P.T.?

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Yes, the doctrines of the final judgment, a three ring circus. Damnationism/Annihilationism/Restorationism --- Step right up, ladies and gentlemen; see the greatest show on earth!