Who Changed Shabbat?

guevaraj · Feb 15, 2020

Bob S said:
Under the old laws of the now defunct covenant... Either Paul is has it all wrong and you have the truth or vice versa. Paul tells us we are not under the laws of the Sinai covenant.

Happy Sabbath brothers and sisters. The problem that Paul mentioned resolved with the new covenant is about where written are these ten commandments so that it would last? It is not the content in the ten commandments that were the problem as a minimalist glimpse at the glory of God's character “so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory”. What, in comparison, loses glory is not the ten commandments, but that written are they in “stone” compared to the greater lasting glory when written in the heart. A necessary transfer to "fulfill" a lasting “righteousness” that is not transitory as when written only in stone and not on the heart until after Jesus.

My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. (Psalms 119:172 KJV)

The History of Israel shows the ten commandments while written in “stone” did not last and brought condemnation to the nation, but when written in the “heart”, though scattered are we throughout the world, brings lasting “righteousness” that fulfills the law and does not fade as before. The Spirit writing the ten in the “heart” grows us to “fulfill” the law with lasting “righteousness” that does not fade as when only written in stone, “so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory” and have it last. To have it last after Jesus, the glory of the ten commandments are now written in the heart and no longer written only in stone, thanks to Jesus’ triumph at the cross.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jeremiah 31:33 NIV)

Next, revealed is how Jesus will put His ten commandments within us? The Holy Spirit “will remind you of everything” Jesus said before His incarnation, after having declared that the voice heard on the mountain and the finger whose form Moses saw writing the ten commandments were not of the Father, but were really the voice and form of Jesus before the incarnation, whose ten commandments the Holy Spirit reminds us of, if you do not reject His reminder with "the error of the lawless” to your destruction that Peter forewarned us is the end of those who embrace "the error of the lawless".

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. (John 14:26 NIV)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

S.O.J.I.A. · Feb 15, 2020

the short answer is 'Not the LORD'.

HARK! · Feb 15, 2020

"'And on the seventh day God rested from the work he had done. ... He blessed the seventh day and hallowed it'. The 'shabbat', the biblical sabbath is tied to this mystery of God's rest. If we Christians celebrate the Lord's day on Sunday, it is because on that day the Resurrection of Christ occurred." Pope John Paul II-July 12 1998

Stephen Keenan- A Doctrinal Catechism Third Edition "Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept? "Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."

guevaraj · Feb 15, 2020

HARK! said:
"'And on the seventh day God rested from the work he had done. ... He blessed the seventh day and hallowed it'. The 'shabbat', the biblical sabbath is tied to this mystery of God's rest." Pope John Paul II-July 12 1998

klutedavid said:
The seventh day in Eden is not called a Sabbath in the Genesis text.

Brother, the Sabbath word in Exodus is an intensive form of the word in Genesis.

By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested (shabath) from all his work. Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested (shabath) from all the work of creating that he had done. (Genesis 2:2-3 NIV)

The word below is an intensive form of the word above.

Remember the Sabbath (shabbath) day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath (shabbath) day and made it holy. (Exodus 20:8-11 NIV)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

HARK! · Feb 15, 2020

guevaraj said:
Brother, the Sabbath word in Exodus is an intensive form of the word in Genesis.

So?

Daniel Ferres- ed., Manual of Christian Doctrine (1916) "Question: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days? "Answer. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of, and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.'

The Catholic Press said, "Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observation can be defended only on Catholic principles . . . From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of week public worship from the last day of the week to the first."- CATHOLIC PRESS, (Sydney, Australia), Aug. 25, 1900.

Shabbat shalom

guevaraj · Feb 15, 2020

HARK! said:
So?

Brother, more evidence for those who need more than the link provided in the fourth commandment in Exodus on the Sabbath with the Seventh day in Eden. The question is when did the Lord make the Sabbath "holy", if not the seventh day in Eden? The point is that established was the Sabbath in Genesis for all people and not just for His chosen nation of Israel. I have heard Jews who did not accept Jesus say that it is wrong for Christians to keep the Sabbath as if it only belonged to them and that is another invented tradition that contradicts the Scriptures.

Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. (Exodus 20:8-11 NIV)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

HARK! · Feb 15, 2020

guevaraj said:
Brother, more evidence for those who need more than the link provided in the fourth commandment in Exodus on the Sabbath with the Seventh day in Eden. The question is when did the Lord make the Sabbath "holy", if not the seventh day in Eden? The point is that established was the Sabbath in Genesis for all people and not just for His chosen nation of Israel. I have heard Jews who did not accept Jesus say that it is wrong for Christians to keep the Sabbath as if it only belonged to them and that is another invented tradition that contradicts the Scriptures.

Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. (Exodus 20:8-11 NIV)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

YHWH created the signs for us, before he even rested.

(CLV) Gn 1:14
And Elohim said: Let luminaries come to be in the atmosphere of the heavens to separate between the day and the night, that they may be for signs, for appointed seasons, for days and years.

I'm not in Eden. The signs for Eden come to Eden. The signs for everywhere else come to everywhere else.

Shabbat shalom

guevaraj · Feb 15, 2020

HARK! said:
YHWH created the signs for us, before he even rested... I'm not in Eden. The signs for Eden come to Eden. The signs for everywhere else come to everywhere else.

Brother, I agree that the signs given in Genesis for Eden are different from the signs given in Leviticus for Israel. According to the Scriptures, when does the "evening" arrive within the first day in Eden? Think of Jesus, the last hours before His sacrifice for our sins, avoiding pain there is no gain. We need this to be ready for Jesus to return soon.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

HARK! · Feb 15, 2020

guevaraj said:
Brother, I agree that the signs given in Genesis for Eden are different from the signs given in Leviticus for Israel.

How can you say that you agree with me; when that is not what I said?

guevaraj said:
According to the Scriptures, when does the "evening" arrive within the first day in Eden?

Evening didn't arrive within the first day. It arrived at the end of the first day.

James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), in a signed letter."Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day - Saturday- for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes. Did Christ change the day'? I answer no!" Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons"

"The Catholic Church, . . . by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday."- The Catholic Mirror, official publication of James Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.

Catholic Virginian Oct. 3, 1947- "To Tell You the Truth." "For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible."

klutedavid · Feb 15, 2020

BobRyan said:
Interesting speculation - but in the actual Bible we find this

"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Why don't you quote Isaiah 66:23 in full, these half quotes block what God is saying.

HARK! · Feb 15, 2020

klutedavid said:
Why don't you quote Isaiah 66:23 in full, these half quotes block what God is saying.

Maybe he's trying to protect this thread from people derailing it with unsupported moon suppositions. If you want to talk about the moon after you've been smartly refuted time and again; please start your own thread on the subject. This thread is about who changed the seventh day Shabbat.

Shabbat shalom

"Wise pastoral intuition suggested to the Church the christianization of the notion of Sunday as "the day of the sun", which was the Roman name for the day and which is retained in some modern languages.(29) This was in order to draw the faithful away from the seduction of cults which worshipped the sun, and to direct the celebration of the day to Christ, humanity's true "sun "-Pope John Paul II-DIES DOMINI-Dies Hominis, May 31, 1998

"They despise our sun-god, Did not Zoroaster, the sainted founder of our divine beliefs, institute Sunday one thousand years ago in honour of the sun and supplant the Sabbath of the Old Testament. Yet these Christians have divine services on Saturday. - O'Leary, The Syriac Church and Fathers, pp 83,84

guevaraj · Feb 15, 2020

HARK! said:
How can you say that you agree with me; when that is not what I said?

Brother, I thought you were ready and only needed a slight push to get over the hump.

HARK! said:
Evening didn't arrive within the first day. It arrived at the end of the first day.

The "evening" arrived in the middle of the first day from the first light to light again in the morning or from morning to morning until the first Sabbath from morning to morning. I am still looking for a person who can see it as clearly as I do. This experience has made me think that my spiritual gift is discernment, because I can clearly see what others do not see, even when they have no defense for their tradition, they can not shake their tradition.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

HARK! · Feb 15, 2020

guevaraj said:
The "evening" arrived in the middle of the first day from the first light to light again in the morning or from morning to morning until the first Sabbath from morning to morning. I am still looking for a person who can see it as clearly as I do. This experience has made me think that my spiritual gift is discernment, because I can clearly see what others do not see, even when they have no defense for their tradition, they can not shake their tradition.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)
United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

We've been over this before. The evening comes on the eve of the next day. The day ends at evening; which begins the eve of the next day.

Episcopalian- Bishop Seymour, -Why We Keep Sunday. "We have made the change from the seventh day to the first day, from Saturday to Sunday, on the authority of the one holy Catholic Church."

Alexander Campbell,- The Christian Baptist, Feb. 2, 1824, "'But,' say some, 'it was changed from the seventh to the first day.' Where? when? and by whom? No man can tell. No; it never was changed, nor could it be, unless creation was to be gone through again: for the reason assigned must be changed before the observance, or respect to the reason, can be changed! It is all old wives' fables to talk of the change of the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day. If it be changed, it was that august personage changed it who changes times and laws ex officio - I think his name is Doctor Antichrist.'

HARK! · Feb 15, 2020

guevaraj said:
Brother, I thought you were ready and only needed a slight push to get over the hump.

Brother, this is part of what you're pushing against:

(CLV) Lv 23:32
It is a sabbath of cessation for you, and you will humble »your souls. On the ninth day of the month in the evening, from evening until evening shall you cease for your sabbath.

"Examining the New Testament from cover to cover, critically, we find the sabbath referred to sixty-one times. We find too, that the Saviour invariably selected the Sabbath (Saturday) to teach in the synagogues and work miracles. The four Gospels refer to the Sabbath fifty-one times. In one instance , the Redeemer refers to Himself as 'Lord of the Sabbath' as mentioned by Matthew and Luke, but, during the whole record of His life, while invaribly keeping and utilizing the day, (Saturday), He never once hinted at a desire to change it. "- The Catholic Mirror Nov. 25 1893. J. Cardinal Gibbons.

"...with the Bible alone as the teacher and guide in faith and morals. This teacher most emphatically forbids any changes in the day for paramount reasons. The command calls for a 'perpetual covenant'. The day commanded to be kept by the teacher (The Bible) has never once been kept (by the Protestant or Catholic churches), thereby developing an apostasy from an asumedly fixed principle, as self-contradictory, self-stultisfying, and consequently as suicidal as it is within the power of language to express." - The Catholic Mirror Nov. 25, 1893, Cardinal Gibbons

HARK! · Feb 15, 2020

"The Sabbath is a part of the decalogue - the Ten Commandments. This alone forever settles the question as to the perpetuity of the institution . . . . Until, therefore, it can be shown that the whole moral law has been repealed, the Sabbath will stand . . . . The teaching of Christ confirms the perpetuity of the Sabbath." Presbyterian T. C. Blake, D.D., -Theology Condensed.

klutedavid · Feb 15, 2020

HARK! said:
The Gospel does not describe the visit to the tomb as on the first day of the week.

As I have demonstrated, the mistranslation of the Gospel describes the visit to the tomb as on the first day of the week.

The following is not a poor translation.

Mark 16:1
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him. Very early on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.

Look at verse 1.

When the Sabbath was over...

Here is the Koine Greek for verse 1.

Kai diagenomenou tou sabbatou

Plug that into Google translate and we get.

And after Saturday

The translation is correct.

I win you lose.

HARK! · Feb 15, 2020

klutedavid said:
The following is not a poor translation.

Mark 16:1
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him. Very early on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.

Look at verse 1.

When the Sabbath was over...

Here is the Koine Greek for verse 1.

Kai diagenomenou tou sabbatou

Plug that into Google translate and we get.

And after Saturday

The translation is correct.

I win you lose.

What did you win? What does this have to do with the OP?

guevaraj · Feb 16, 2020

HARK! said:
Brother, this is part of what you're pushing against: (CLV) Lv 23:32 It is a sabbath of cessation for you, and you will humble »your souls. On the ninth day of the month in the evening, from evening until evening shall you cease for your sabbath.

Brother, that is a critical passage on how God used the words “evening” and “morning” in Genesis. Israel simply "assumed" that the Eden-Sabbath in Israel is the seventh day of the week in Israel, when the Leviticus passage only tells Israel how to remember the Eden-Sabbath in Israel and does not define the seventh day of the week already defined in Genesis. According to God’s use of the word in Leviticus, the words “evening” and “morning” confine the beginning and the ending of a period within two instances. The words “evening” and “morning” are not periods like “day” and “night” defined for that purpose and importantly not used at the end of the first day, but instead words were used that confine the beginning and ending of a period as in Leviticus below, but ending earlier with the not mentioned “morning” between the evenings that confine an Eden-Sabbath in Israel. First, what is important to learn from this passage is that evening to evening in Leviticus is not the same as evening to morning in Genesis. Secondly, that between the evenings in Leviticus there is a morning not mentioned that is used in Genesis to confine the half period of the “night” that comes first in Israel’s Eden-Sabbath, but comes second in Genesis’ first day.

It is a day of sabbath rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath.” (Leviticus 23:32 NIV)

God’s first day of the week in Genesis is not from “evening” to “evening” as Israel "assumed". God’s use of the words “evening” and “morning” in Genesis is different from His use of “day” and “night”. The words “evening” and “morning” are sunset and sunrise with a precise instance that is not a period like the words: “day” and “night”, importantly defined in the previous sentence, but not used at the end of the first day. A period of darkness ended the first day with the half a day period that God called "night" from the first "evening" to the light again in the “morning” or a period from “evening” to “morning” of darkness, because the period of light came first on the first day of the creation week. The reason Israel did not see this is because they “assumed” that the Eden-Sabbath given to Israel was the seventh day of the week in Israel and did not bother to verify that “assumption” with a careful study of Genesis’ first day. There was no incentive to understand a more complicated Eden-Sabbath away from Israel until after Jesus with the church spread throughout the world. The period confined from “evening” to “morning” is only what God called “night” that ends the first day that began with a period of light; a light period that God called “day” from the first light until “evening” prior to the “night” period that ended the first day from “evening” until “morning”.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj · Feb 16, 2020

klutedavid said:
I win you lose.

Brother, you win a greater understanding of the passage by learning that Jesus did not resurrect on Sunday and really rose on the night of the seventh day, so early before the next day at sunrise that it was still the seventh day when Jesus rose. Jesus had the "night" period from “evening” until “morning” to rise after the Eden-Sabbath remembered in Israel and before the first day at sunrise as defined in Genesis. The expression “the first of the Sabbaths” is a way of saying the seventh day of the week for future generations who will learn that the first Sabbath in Eden was from morning until morning and not from evening until evening as Israel wrongly "assumed". The phrase in all our Bibles saying “the first day of the week” is invented based on context, because they did not understand what God was saying with the phrase “the first of the Sabbaths” and the translators took liberty based on this passage and others of the same event and “assumed” Jesus rose on Sunday after the Eden-Sabbath in Israel not realizing that there is a “night” period after the Eden-Sabbath in Israel is over and before the first day in Israel at sunrise as defined in Genesis, where the days are from sunrise until the next sunrise.

And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. And very early in the morning the first of the Sabbaths, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. (Mark 16:1-2 KJV corrected)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

HARK! · Feb 16, 2020

guevaraj said:
Brother, that is a critical passage on how God used the words “evening” and “morning” in Genesis. Israel simply "assumed" that the Eden-Sabbath in Israel is the seventh day of the week in Israel, when the Leviticus passage only tells Israel how to remember the Eden-Sabbath in Israel and does not define the seventh day of the week already defined in Genesis. According to God’s use of the word in Leviticus, the words “evening” and “morning” confine the beginning and the ending of a period within two instances. The words “evening” and “morning” are not periods like “day” and “night” defined for that purpose and importantly not used at the end of the first day, but instead words were used that confine the beginning and ending of a period as in Leviticus below, but ending earlier with the not mentioned “morning” between the evenings that confine an Eden-Sabbath in Israel. First, what is important to learn from this passage is that evening to evening in Leviticus is not the same as evening to morning in Genesis. Secondly, that between the evenings in Leviticus there is a morning not mentioned that is used in Genesis to confine the half period of the “night” that comes first in Israel’s Eden-Sabbath, but comes second in Genesis’ first day.

It is a day of sabbath rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath.” (Leviticus 23:32 NIV)

God’s first day of the week in Genesis is not from “evening” to “evening” as Israel "assumed". God’s use of the words “evening” and “morning” in Genesis is different from His use of “day” and “night”. The words “evening” and “morning” are sunset and sunrise with a precise instance that is not a period like the words: “day” and “night”, importantly defined in the previous sentence, but not used at the end of the first day. A period of darkness ended the first day with the half a day period that God called "night" from the first "evening" to the light again in the “morning” or a period from “evening” to “morning” of darkness, because the period of light came first on the first day of the creation week. The reason Israel did not see this is because they “assumed” that the Eden-Sabbath given to Israel was the seventh day of the week in Israel and did not bother to verify that “assumption” with a careful study of Genesis’ first day. There was no incentive to understand a more complicated Eden-Sabbath away from Israel until after Jesus with the church spread throughout the world. The period confined from “evening” to “morning” is only what God called “night” that ends the first day that began with a period of light; a light period that God called “day” from the first light until “evening” prior to the “night” period that ended the first day from “evening” until “morning”.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

That all sounds very complicated and confusing. Our heavenly Father is not the author of confusion. I'm also of the understanding that the simplest explanation is more likely correct.

Who Changed Shabbat?

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