Throw a stone and be like God...

Bob Crowley · Feb 15, 2020

I'm not sure where this belongs if anywhere, but I was feeling a bit frustrated, so I started skimming through a book on my shelves "Wrestling with the Divine - A Jewish Response to Suffering" by Shmuel Boteach (An American Orthodox Jewish Rabbi with an Australian wife who lived in Oxford UK at the time of writing - 1995. What you might call an internationalist).

Shmuley Boteach - Wikipedia

But one of the chapters is "The Nature of Nothingness; The Need for God in Creation", and this sparked a train of thought.

To begin he wrote -

... It is not sufficient to say that God is the original existence. He is, He was, and He always will be, while the rest of creation emanates from God and didn't always exist and this makes God unique ...

... The word creation and the act of creation indicate that there was a need for something to be created out of total nothingness, and that this thing that was created had no existence prior to its coming into being. This is the true meaning of creation - the emergence of something from nothing, the technical term for which is creation ex nihilo.

... But when one takes nothing and gives it character, what is there that can possibly retain the character given to it. What is the it? What is going to maintain the shape that one has created or the property that one introduces?...

... Had God started with some existing matter, and merely reformed and refashioned it according to His liking, it could be sustained without his active involvement. But because He started with nothing, He must constantly suspend and animate the world if it is not to revert to nothingness.

... In Hasidic thought an appropriate example (of the above) is provided. Suppose a person throws a stone into the air giving it, temporarily, the nature of flight and lightness, rather than the heaviness and immobility that is intrinsic to the stone. This imposed nature, this given talent, of lightness and movement does not take hold in the stone. The stone cannot acquire this talent permanently. In short, it cannot learn to fly. And although what one has helped it to fly and given it movement, it cannot retain what has given it.

He was stating that the stone will only fly if we keep picking it up and throwing it. It cannot retain the quality of flight unless we keep sustaining that quality ourselves. In short for this universe to continue to exist, God has to continue to sustain it. That fact that is a "sum zero energy universe" lends credence to it's continued nothingness.

The next time you throw a stone, give a thought for God. He's doing the same thing on a much bigger basis - all the time.

This brings me to the spiritual world. Is God continually sustaining it also? If so, we would have the absurd situation where God continues to sustain Satan, His malignant and depraved enemy and all the demons, as well as the archangels, angels etc.

This defies common sense. Why would God want to eternally sustain the Devil?

So it would seem the spiritual world is not dependent on God sustaining it, but has its own existence. Which implies it is made of the same essence as God Himself ie. Spirit, and as such shares in His eternal nature.

Since it is eternal, any place of reward or judgement must also be eternal by virtue of its character ie. it cannot be destroyed.

That is to say Heaven and Hell are eternal.

I told you I was feeling frustrated.

Gregory Thompson · Feb 15, 2020

Bob Crowley said:
I'm not sure where this belongs if anywhere, but I was feeling a bit frustrated, so I started skimming through a book on my shelves "Wrestling with the Divine - A Jewish Response to Suffering" by Shmuel Boteach (An American Orthodox Jewish Rabbi with an Australian wife who lived in Oxford UK at the time of writing - 1995. What you might call an internationalist).

Shmuley Boteach - Wikipedia

But one of the chapters is "The Nature of Nothingness; The Need for God in Creation", and this sparked a train of thought.

To begin he wrote -

He was stating that the stone will only fly if we keep picking it up and throwing it. It cannot retain the quality of flight unless we keep sustaining that quality ourselves. In short for this universe to continue to exist, God has to continue to sustain it. That fact that is a "sum zero energy universe" lends credence to it's continued nothingness.

The next time you throw a stone, give a thought for God. He's doing the same thing on a much bigger basis - all the time.

This brings me to the spiritual world. Is God continually sustaining it also? If so, we would have the absurd situation where God continues to sustain Satan, His malignant and depraved enemy and all the demons, as well as the archangels, angels etc.

This defies common sense. Why would God want to eternally sustain the Devil?

So it would seem the spiritual world is not dependent on God sustaining it, but has its own existence. Which implies it is made of the same essence as God Himself ie. Spirit, and as such shares in His eternal nature.

Since it is eternal, any place of reward or judgement must also be eternal by virtue of its character ie. it cannot be destroyed.

That is to say Heaven and Hell are eternal.

I told you I was feeling frustrated.

I had a similar thought.

In the event of eternal torment, sin which wasn't originally created in the first 7 days, becomes eternal.

This is enigmatic.

Gregory Thompson · Feb 15, 2020

Bob Crowley said:
So it would seem the spiritual world is not dependent on God sustaining it, but has its own existence. Which implies it is made of the same essence as God Himself ie. Spirit, and as such shares in His eternal nature.

Since it is eternal, any place of reward or judgement must also be eternal by virtue of its character ie. it cannot be destroyed.

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Do those scriptures help?

HTacianas · Feb 15, 2020

Bob Crowley said:
I'm not sure where this belongs if anywhere, but I was feeling a bit frustrated, so I started skimming through a book on my shelves "Wrestling with the Divine - A Jewish Response to Suffering" by Shmuel Boteach (An American Orthodox Jewish Rabbi with an Australian wife who lived in Oxford UK at the time of writing - 1995. What you might call an internationalist).

Shmuley Boteach - Wikipedia

But one of the chapters is "The Nature of Nothingness; The Need for God in Creation", and this sparked a train of thought.

To begin he wrote -

He was stating that the stone will only fly if we keep picking it up and throwing it. It cannot retain the quality of flight unless we keep sustaining that quality ourselves. In short for this universe to continue to exist, God has to continue to sustain it. That fact that is a "sum zero energy universe" lends credence to it's continued nothingness.

The next time you throw a stone, give a thought for God. He's doing the same thing on a much bigger basis - all the time.

This brings me to the spiritual world. Is God continually sustaining it also? If so, we would have the absurd situation where God continues to sustain Satan, His malignant and depraved enemy and all the demons, as well as the archangels, angels etc.

This defies common sense. Why would God want to eternally sustain the Devil?

So it would seem the spiritual world is not dependent on God sustaining it, but has its own existence. Which implies it is made of the same essence as God Himself ie. Spirit, and as such shares in His eternal nature.

Since it is eternal, any place of reward or judgement must also be eternal by virtue of its character ie. it cannot be destroyed.

That is to say Heaven and Hell are eternal.

I told you I was feeling frustrated.

The writer has intentionally or unintentionally stumbled on Philo's view of creation. According to Philo:

"God is continuously ordering matter by his thought. His thinking was not anterior to his creating and there never was a time when he did not create, the Ideas themselves having been with him from the beginning. For God's will is not posterior to him, but is always with him, for natural motions never give out."

Philo's ideas on creation snd sustenance of creation through and by God's Word are also found throughout the new testament.

A_Thinker · Feb 15, 2020

Bob Crowley said:
This brings me to the spiritual world. Is God continually sustaining it also? If so, we would have the absurd situation where God continues to sustain Satan, His malignant and depraved enemy and all the demons, as well as the archangels, angels etc.

This defies common sense. Why would God want to eternally sustain the Devil?

Do you fail to sustain your family ... because of one bad player ?

BobRyan · Feb 15, 2020

Bob Crowley said:
This brings me to the spiritual world. Is God continually sustaining it also? If so, we would have the absurd situation where God continues to sustain Satan, His malignant and depraved enemy and all the demons, as well as the archangels, angels etc.

This defies common sense. Why would God want to eternally sustain the Devil?

So it would seem the spiritual world is not dependent on God sustaining it, but has its own existence. Which implies it is made of the same essence as God Himself ie. Spirit, and as such shares in His eternal nature.

Since it is eternal, any place of reward or judgement must also be eternal by virtue of its character ie. it cannot be destroyed.

That is to say Heaven and Hell are eternal.

I told you I was feeling frustrated.

1. The Bible makes it clear that God actively sustains all life. Col 1 says that God made and sustains the universe at all times. "He upholds all things".
2. Satan owes his very continued existence to God.
3. Even in the most limited context one could imagine - God always had the option of zapping Satan instantly out of existence "you will be no more" Ezek 28 is the final doom of satan. And translated as "you will cease to be --- forever".

In fiery hell it is God who "destroys BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28 instead of supernaturally 'sustaining' rebellion sin and evil for eternity

Aussie Pete · Feb 15, 2020

Bob Crowley said:
I'm not sure where this belongs if anywhere, but I was feeling a bit frustrated, so I started skimming through a book on my shelves "Wrestling with the Divine - A Jewish Response to Suffering" by Shmuel Boteach (An American Orthodox Jewish Rabbi with an Australian wife who lived in Oxford UK at the time of writing - 1995. What you might call an internationalist).

Shmuley Boteach - Wikipedia

But one of the chapters is "The Nature of Nothingness; The Need for God in Creation", and this sparked a train of thought.

To begin he wrote -

He was stating that the stone will only fly if we keep picking it up and throwing it. It cannot retain the quality of flight unless we keep sustaining that quality ourselves. In short for this universe to continue to exist, God has to continue to sustain it. That fact that is a "sum zero energy universe" lends credence to it's continued nothingness.

The next time you throw a stone, give a thought for God. He's doing the same thing on a much bigger basis - all the time.

This brings me to the spiritual world. Is God continually sustaining it also? If so, we would have the absurd situation where God continues to sustain Satan, His malignant and depraved enemy and all the demons, as well as the archangels, angels etc.

This defies common sense. Why would God want to eternally sustain the Devil?

So it would seem the spiritual world is not dependent on God sustaining it, but has its own existence. Which implies it is made of the same essence as God Himself ie. Spirit, and as such shares in His eternal nature.

Since it is eternal, any place of reward or judgement must also be eternal by virtue of its character ie. it cannot be destroyed.

That is to say Heaven and Hell are eternal.

I told you I was feeling frustrated.

Lord Jesus sustains all things (Colossians 1:17). I wanted to be sure, so I looked it up in the Greek. All means - wait for it - all. Now what happens if Lord Jesus quits holding all things together? There is a force at the atomic level that stops atoms flying apart. If Lord Jesus chose to remove that force, matter would effectively cease to exist. So that is the material world.

I do not believe that God has to sustain the spiritual realm. They are not material, i.e., not things. So they are eternal. I don't know how it works, but one thing is for sure. There is no evil in God and no good in Satan. Will Satan exist in the Lake of fire? I don't know. I believe it is the fire of God's judgement, not a physical fire. "Our God is a consuming fire". All I know for sure is that I don't want to go there!

dqhall · Feb 15, 2020

Bob Crowley said:
I'm not sure where this belongs if anywhere, but I was feeling a bit frustrated, so I started skimming through a book on my shelves "Wrestling with the Divine - A Jewish Response to Suffering" by Shmuel Boteach (An American Orthodox Jewish Rabbi with an Australian wife who lived in Oxford UK at the time of writing - 1995. What you might call an internationalist).

Shmuley Boteach - Wikipedia

But one of the chapters is "The Nature of Nothingness; The Need for God in Creation", and this sparked a train of thought.

To begin he wrote -

He was stating that the stone will only fly if we keep picking it up and throwing it. It cannot retain the quality of flight unless we keep sustaining that quality ourselves. In short for this universe to continue to exist, God has to continue to sustain it. That fact that is a "sum zero energy universe" lends credence to it's continued nothingness.

The next time you throw a stone, give a thought for God. He's doing the same thing on a much bigger basis - all the time.

This brings me to the spiritual world. Is God continually sustaining it also? If so, we would have the absurd situation where God continues to sustain Satan, His malignant and depraved enemy and all the demons, as well as the archangels, angels etc.

This defies common sense. Why would God want to eternally sustain the Devil?

So it would seem the spiritual world is not dependent on God sustaining it, but has its own existence. Which implies it is made of the same essence as God Himself ie. Spirit, and as such shares in His eternal nature.

Since it is eternal, any place of reward or judgement must also be eternal by virtue of its character ie. it cannot be destroyed.

That is to say Heaven and Hell are eternal.

I told you I was feeling frustrated.

I was not a eye witness to the creation that happened millions and billions of years ago. I took some geology classes in a university and gained knowledge of things that happened in the distant past. My field and structural geology professor taught me how to find evidence of past geological events by measuring and observing rock formations. He called such things, “Sermons in stone.” He was also a consultant sought by those seeking stable areas where nuclear reactors might be built without elevated risk of fault movements and earthquakes.

From personal observation and prayers I can attest God has recently added to what was done in the past. A stone falling off a cliff is not as glorious as a dove racing through the air. The gift of perception is greater than the threat of nothingness. I have seen technological improvements. Thirty years ago I did not have the Internet. A smart phone did not exist. Hell can not last forever. It will wither and die.

fhansen · Feb 15, 2020

Bob Crowley said:
I'm not sure where this belongs if anywhere, but I was feeling a bit frustrated, so I started skimming through a book on my shelves "Wrestling with the Divine - A Jewish Response to Suffering" by Shmuel Boteach (An American Orthodox Jewish Rabbi with an Australian wife who lived in Oxford UK at the time of writing - 1995. What you might call an internationalist).

Shmuley Boteach - Wikipedia

But one of the chapters is "The Nature of Nothingness; The Need for God in Creation", and this sparked a train of thought.

To begin he wrote -

He was stating that the stone will only fly if we keep picking it up and throwing it. It cannot retain the quality of flight unless we keep sustaining that quality ourselves. In short for this universe to continue to exist, God has to continue to sustain it. That fact that is a "sum zero energy universe" lends credence to it's continued nothingness.

The next time you throw a stone, give a thought for God. He's doing the same thing on a much bigger basis - all the time.

This brings me to the spiritual world. Is God continually sustaining it also? If so, we would have the absurd situation where God continues to sustain Satan, His malignant and depraved enemy and all the demons, as well as the archangels, angels etc.

This defies common sense. Why would God want to eternally sustain the Devil?

So it would seem the spiritual world is not dependent on God sustaining it, but has its own existence. Which implies it is made of the same essence as God Himself ie. Spirit, and as such shares in His eternal nature.

Since it is eternal, any place of reward or judgement must also be eternal by virtue of its character ie. it cannot be destroyed.

That is to say Heaven and Hell are eternal.

I told you I was feeling frustrated.

Everything, absolutely everything, that God creates is necessarily good, because God is goodness itself. The only way that moral evil (sin) can enter creation is by the abuse of free will given to created rational beings. In order for free will to exist at all, it necessarily involves the freedom to oppose even God's will. This is true even as God must sustain us in our existence, in every act we commit from brushing our teeth to pulling a trigger to murder our neighbor. "in Him we live and move and have our being." (Acts 17:28).

And since existence, itself, is good, nothing that God creates is worthy, by virtue of its created nature, of non-existence. This means that justice can never demand that any created thing be eliminated from existence even if certain beings act in a manner inconsistent with the created order, with their created natures, inconsistent with the goodness that God created them with to put it another way.

The ultimate purpose of the freedom given to rational created beings is for us to choose and to align ourselves with goodness as well, with the ultimate good: love, just as God does, just as God is. To choose God IOW, finally loving Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. Evil is allowed to prevail for now, for a time, for us to taste of it so that we may experience-we may know-the two, good and evil, and finally decide, not without the help of grace. How do we choose?

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Throw a stone and be like God...

Bob Crowley

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Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

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Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

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HTacianas

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A_Thinker

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BobRyan

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Aussie Pete

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dqhall

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fhansen

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