The Saint Steve Highlights of Christ Triumphant

FineLinen said:

...

Click to expand...

FineLinen said:

Let us next consider the true meaning of the words aion and aionios. These are the originals of the terms rendered by our translators "everlasting,"" for ever and ever :" and on this translation, so misleading, a vast portion of the popular dogma of endless torment is built up. I say, without hesitation, misleading and incorrect; for aion means "an age," a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length; and the adjective aionios means "of the age," "age-long," "aeonian," and never " everlasting" (of its own proper force), it is true that it may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God.

Click to expand...

I have never been shown any Greek grammar which states "the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God." There is no such grammar rule.
Let us indeed consider the "TRUE" meaning of the words aion and aionios.
But first in 1896 E.W. Bullinger wrote a book titled "Figures of Figures of Speech Used in the Bible." .....In this book Bullinger identified more that 200 figures of speech used in the Bible such as hyperbole and epezeuxis, reduplication of words for emphasis, in the Bible..Bullinger, pp. 189,194).
.....An example of epezeuxis can be found in Gen 2:17 where God told Adam "In the day that you eat of the forbidden fruit you shall surely die." In Hebrew that is muth t'muth, "dying you shall die." There are no superlatives in Hebrew so to emphasize a word it is doubled as in Gen 2:17.

FineLinen said:

...

Click to expand...

FineLinen said:

"Indeed our translators have really done further hurt to those who can only read their English Bible. They have, wholly obscured a very important doctrine, that of "the ages." This when fully understood throws a flood of light on the plan of redemption, and the method of the divine working. Take a few instances which show the force and clearness gained, by restoring the true rendering of the words aion and aionios. Turn to S. Matt. xxiv. 3. There our version represents the disciples as asking "what should be the sign of the end of the world." It should be the end of the "age;" the close of the Jewish age marked by the fall of Jerusalem. In S. Matt. xiii. 39-40-49, the true rendering is not the end of the "world," but of the "age," an important change.
So S. John xvii. 3, "this is life eternal," should be "the life of the ages," i.e., peculiar to those ages, in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out. Or take Heb. v. 9; ix. 12; xiii. 20, "eternal salvation" should be "aeonian" or of the ages; "eternal redemption" is the redemption "of the ages ;" the eternal covenant is the "covenant of the ages," the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption. In Eph. iii. 11, "the eternal purpose" is really the purpose of "the ages," i.e., worked out in "the ages." In ch. iii 21, there occurs a suggestive phrase altogether obscured (as usual, where this word is in question,) by our version, "until all the generations of the age of the ages." Thus it runs in the original, and it is altogether unfair to conceal this elaborate statement by merely rendering "throughout all ages." In 1 Cor. x. 11, "the ends of the world" are the "ends of the ages." In ch. ii. 6-7-8, the word aion is four times translated "world," it should be "age" or "ages" in all cases Here it is impossible to avoid asking how - assuming that aion does mean "world" in these cases - how it can yield, as an adjective, such a term as "everlasting?" If it mean "world," then the adjective should be "worldly," "of the world." And great force and freshness would be gained in our version by always adhering to the one rendering "age."

Click to expand...

Nonsense! Closing one's eyes to the evidence and repeating the same copy/paste does not make it correct.
The Greek word "kosmos" means "world" but in these 15 verses "kosmos" refers to something that cannot be the entire planet earth.
Can a person literally inherit the "whole world?"
Was "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one?
Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray?
Did "the whole world" literally follow the beast?
Did "all the world" literally buy grain from Egypt?
Did the disciples literally cause trouble "all over the world?"
Did "all the world" literally know that Ephesus was the guardian of the pagan deity Artemis?
Was Paul literally stirring up riots "all over the world?"
Did Caesar literally tax "all the world?"
Did "all the world" literally worship the goddess Diana?
Was the faith of the Romans literally spoken of throughout "the whole world?"
Did the whole world literally go after Jesus?
Did the Paul’s companions literally turn “the world upside down?”
Did the “ends of the world” literally come upon the Israelite who disobeyed God at Sinai?
Is the tongue literally a world?
Let us use the fallacious aion/aionios argument on these verses. The word "world" cannot literally mean the entire planet earth because it refers to things that are not literally "the whole world" and "all the world."

Again, in Heb. xi. 3, "the worlds were framed," should be "the ages." In Heb. ix. 26, "now once in the end of the world" should be, "in the end of the ages." Take, again; the closing words of S. Jude, which run literally, "To the only God, be glory, &c., before every age, and now and unto all the ages," i.e., before the ages began, and now, and throughout all the ages yet to come. So Rev. i. 6, "glory" is ascribed unto Christ, "unto the ages of the ages," in the original. In 1 Tim. i. 17," the King eternal" should be "the King of ages ;" in vi. 17, "charge them that are rich in this world" should be "in this age." 2 Pet. ii. 17, "the mist of darkness is reserved for ever" should be "for the age," for a period finite but indefinite.

A striking phrase closes this Epistle, ch. iii. 18, obscured in our translation - which renders "to Him be glory both now and for ever, instead of, as the original requires, "unto the day of (the) age," see v. 5, which explains the reference. I might easily go on, but enough has been said to show that Scripture designs teach us the "doctrine of the ages." In these repeated instances there must be some definite purpose in the use of these peculiar terms; and we must deeply regret the unfairness and inconsistency which in the case of aion mars and renders unfair our versions. Thus it would be interesting to ask on what principle our Revisers have in one brief epistle employed FIVE different words (or phrases) to translate this one word, aion, e.g., Eph. i. 21 ii. 2, 7 ; iii, 11,21, e.g., "world," "course," "age, " "eternal,"" for ever." Such are the devious ways of our teachers, and our translators.

Let me state briefly the doctrine of "the ages." "It will, I think, be found, that the adjective - aeonian - whether applied to 'life,' 'punishment,' 'covenant,' 'times,' or even God Himself, is always connected with remedial labor, and with the idea of ages or periods, in which God is working to meet and correct some awful fall." - JUKES.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

Saint Steven said:

...

Click to expand...

Again, in Heb. xi. 3, "the worlds were framed," should be "the ages." In Heb. ix. 26, "now once in the end of the world" should be, "in the end of the ages." Take, again; the closing words of S. Jude, which run literally, "To the only God, be glory, &c., before every age, and now and unto all the ages," i.e., before the ages began, and now, and throughout all the ages yet to come. So Rev. i. 6, "glory" is ascribed unto Christ, "unto the ages of the ages," in the original. In 1 Tim. i. 17," the King eternal" should be "the King of ages ;" in vi. 17, "charge them that are rich in this world" should be "in this age." 2 Pet. ii. 17, "the mist of darkness is reserved for ever" should be "for the age," for a period finite but indefinite.
A striking phrase closes this Epistle, ch. iii. 18, obscured in our translation - which renders "to Him be glory both now and for ever, instead of, as the original requires, "unto the day of (the) age," see v. 5, which explains the reference. I might easily go on, but enough has been said to show that Scripture designs teach us the "doctrine of the ages." In these repeated instances there must be some definite purpose in the use of these peculiar terms; and we must deeply regret the unfairness and inconsistency which in the case of aion mars and renders unfair our versions. Thus it would be interesting to ask on what principle our Revisers have in one brief epistle employed FIVE different words (or phrases) to translate this one word, aion, e.g., Eph. i. 21 ii. 2, 7 ; iii, 11,21, e.g., "world," "course," "age, " "eternal,"" for ever." Such are the devious ways of our teachers, and our translators.
Let me state briefly the doctrine of "the ages." "It will, I think, be found, that the adjective - aeonian - whether applied to 'life,' 'punishment,' 'covenant,' 'times,' or even God Himself, is always connected with remedial labor, and with the idea of ages or periods, in which God is working to meet and correct some awful fall." - JUKES.
Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine<SS>

...

Click to expand...

Please explain to me and all the other folks around here how you quoting your own book and repeating the same unsupported opinion, without any credible scholarship, proves it to be correct?
Perhaps you might try quoting from an accredited Greek lexicon and/or grammar which supports the opinions?
.....It does not matter how many "scholars" you quote stating the above opinions unless they provide scholarship supporting their opinions. See e.g. the definition of aionios from BDAG. The blue highlights indicate the historical sources the authors consulted in determining the meaning of aionios. There are more than 40.
Link to an older edition of this lexicon online
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Gingrich & Danker

FineLinen said:

...

Click to expand...

FineLinen said:

Christ's kingdom is to last "for ever," yet we are distinctly told that this very kingdom is to end.- 1 Cor. xv. 24. Indeed, quotation might be added to quotation, both from the Bible and from early authors, to prove this limited meaning of aion and its derivatives; but enough has probably been said to prove that it is wholly impossible, and indeed absurd, to contend that any idea of endless duration is necessarily or commonly implied by either aion or aionios.
*Thus JOSEPEUS calls "aeonian," the temple of Herod, which was actually destroyed when he wrote. PHILO never uses aionios of endless duration.
Further; if this translation of aionios as "eternal," in the sense of endless, be correct, aion must mean eternity, i.e., endless duration. But so to render it would reduce Scripture to an absurdity. In the first place, you would have over and over again to talk of the "eternities." We can comprehend what "eternity" is, but what are the "eternities?" You cannot have more than one eternity.

Click to expand...

I already addressed this in post #4 above. Why do you think repeating the same argument over and over and over makes it any more correct?
Hyperbole, derived from a Greek word meaning “over-casting,” is a figure of speech that involves an exaggeration of ideas for the sake of emphasis.
There were no superlatives in Hebrew. To emphasize a word they would repeat it. That is called epizeuxis. "εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων/eis tous aionas ton aionion" is an example of epizeuxis as is "king of kings,""lord of lord,""Hebrew of Hebrew."
E.W. Bullinger's "Figures of Speech used in the Bible" can be consulted and D/L at this link.
Figures of speech used in the Bible: : Bullinger, E. W. (Ethelbert William), 1837-1913 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

FineLinen said:

*Thus JOSEPEUS calls "aeonian," the temple of Herod, which was actually destroyed when he wrote. PHILO never uses aionios of endless duration.

Click to expand...

But you forget dear brother, they have a special glasses to wear which allows them to see WHEN they want aionios to be defined as a descriptive modifying word which pertains to something that is happening in an age. And then those same glasses also show them when it to be interpreted to fit their ETERNAL definition in support of their HELL theology.

Sadly they had to borrow these special glasses enabling them to see more clearly than us....from another gospel twister name Joseph Smith. Good luck in changing what they see...when they refuse to put down what they've spent their lives reinforcing the lies of the enemy.

For US aion is an age and aionios pertains to something happening in that age. ADIOS is our definition of eternity. And when God's life and plan for every age has been fulfilled, our AIONS will....not be consumed....but consummated in God. They will have fulfilled His glorious plan for all His creation.

Hillsage said:

...

Click to expand...

Hillsage said:

But you forget dear brother, they have a special glasses to wear which allows them to see WHEN they want aionios to be defined as a descriptive modifying word which pertains to something that is happening in an age. And then those same glasses also show them when it to be interpreted to fit their ETERNAL definition in support of their HELL theology.
Sadly they had to borrow these special glasses enabling them to see more clearly than us....from another gospel twister name Joseph Smith. Good luck in changing what they see...when they refuse to put down what they've spent their lives reinforcing the lies of the enemy.
For US aion is an age and aionios pertains to something happening in that age. ADIOS is our definition of eternity. And when God's life and plan for every age has been fulfilled, our AIONS will....not be consumed....but consummated in God. They will have fulfilled His glorious plan for all His creation.

Click to expand...

More unsupported UR opinion nonsense. The Joseph Smith comment is rubbish.
You misspelled "aidios." "Adios" is goodbye in Spanish. I'm glad you mentioned "aidios."
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc.
In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.”
In this verse, by definition, “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
You might need special glasses to discern what is clearly stated in these two verses.

FineLinen said:

Dear Sage: The word is found exactly once in Father's word. It is spoken in Aramaic by the Master to blind and deaf saying "be opened."

Dear friend: The few slivers of light are few and far between. There is truly so little my being grasps in the manifold wisdom of God! How about a new word for us today?

Polupoikilos

Click to expand...

My memory is as bad as my spelling...and my hearing. I now remember that word and wish it would become a living word for my bilateral cranial sunglasses hangers.

"There is present in the word in fact a certain spiritual force, and a reference to "the ages" in which a redeeming process is going on. It is the more needful to insist on this, because in our recoil from the Roman Catholic teaching about Purgatory, etc., we have gone too far; we have been trained to limit all God's possible dealings with us, to the narrow span of our earthly existence. But this is to shut our eyes to the truer and higher teaching of the Gospel. What does God mean by the repeated reference to these "ages," when He speaks in the New Testament of His redeeming plan? On the popular view these passages go for nothing. Is this fair or reasonable? But by accepting what they plainly teach, we are enabled to harmonize God's threatenings with His clearly expressed purpose to save all men finally. Indeed, in these "ages" is indicated the true scope of redemption, as a vast plan, extending over many periods or ages, of which our present life forms but one, and it may be, a very brief part. Through these "ages" it is clearly taught that Christ's work is to go on, for "Christ is the same today, and yesterday, and unto 'the ages,"' Heb. xiii. 8; and He assures us that He is alive "unto the ages," and has the "keys of death and of Hades," Rev. i. 18, words significant in this connection. This then, we, taught by Scripture, believe to be the "purpose of the ages," Eph. iii. 11. Nay, we are permitted in Holy Scripture a momentary glance beyond that limit- in these glorious words: - "Then," at the expiry it would seem of these ages, "comes the End, "when every enemy vanquished and every wanderer found, "Christ shall have delivered up the kingdom unto God, and God shall be All in All." - 1 Cor. xv. 28. "

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

"HE SHALL BURN UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE." S. Matt. iii. 12, Luke iii. 17.

(a) Any good lexicon will show us how little the term translated "unquenchable "really conveys that idea. HOMER often applies it to "glory," "laughter,"" shouting," to the brief fire that consumed the Grecian fleet. EUSEBIUS twice says that martyrs were consumed in "unquenchable" fire. Church Hist. vi. 41. CYRIL calls the fire, that consumed the burnt offering, unquenchable. - De ador. lib. x.

It is terrible to think of the agony caused to loving hearts by misleading translations; perhaps most of all by that disgraceful rendering that "never shall be quenched." - S. Mark ix. 43-5 (now removed after it has worked such evil.) (b) Further, if the context be examined, it points to a present, and impending judgment, and not a future punishment. (c) The whole figure implies not the endless torture of the wicked in a future life, but the destruction by Christ's fiery baptism, already working, of that chaff which surrounds every grain. Nor can any figure express more completely than does burning chaff the idea of evanescence.

Here I earnestly beg my readers to pause and seriously consider, not traditional prejudices, but plain facts. The usage of Scripture shows decisively, that to press words like "unquenchable, "&c., to a narrow literal meaning makes perfect nonsense. Take some typical instances. A fire is kindled against Israel which is to burn for ever - Jer. xvii. 4, and yet all Israel is to be saved - Rom. xi. 26, so is "the whole house of Israel." - Ez. xxxix. 25. And again, Israel's hurt is "incurable ;" her pain is "incurable " - Jer. xxx. 12, 15,. but in a moment it is added, "I will heal you" of the (incurable) wound, v. 17. So, too, HOSEA more than once declares the rejection of Israel by God, and that no more mercy remains for her: and yet in the same breath asserts her final pardon and reconciliation - Hos. i. 6-9-10; ii 4, 10, 14, 15, 19, 23 ; ix. 15; xiii. 14; xiv. 4; passages well worth our pondering over.

In AMOS the same striking teaching occurs. Israel, it is said, shall no more rise, ch. v. 2. Yet God will raise her up. - ch. ix. xx. All fair readers can see the extreme significance of all this ; and how very far the principle of interpretation, so plainly involved, really goes. Again, though, as we have seen, an express promise of the restoration of all Israel is given, and repeated in the New Testament - Rom. xi. 26, yet an "unquenchable" fire is to burn them up - Jer. vii. 20; "everlasting" reproach and "perpetual" shame is to come on them - Jer. xxiii. 40; "perpetual" hissing - Jer. xviii. 16; and "perpetual" desolations - Jer. xxv. 9; "perpetual" backsliding - Jer. viii. 5.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

Saint Steven said:

"HE SHALL BURN UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE." S. Matt. iii. 12, Luke iii. 17.
(a) Any good lexicon will show us how little the term translated "unquenchable "really conveys that idea. HOMER often applies it to "glory," "laughter,"" shouting," to the brief fire that consumed the Grecian fleet. EUSEBIUS twice says that martyrs were consumed in "unquenchable" fire. Church Hist. vi. 41. CYRIL calls the fire, that consumed the burnt offering, unquenchable. - De ador. lib. x.
It is terrible to think of the agony caused to loving hearts by misleading translations; perhaps most of all by that disgraceful rendering that "never shall be quenched." - S. Mark ix. 43-5 (now removed after it has worked such evil.) (b) Further, if the context be examined, it points to a present, and impending judgment, and not a future punishment. (c) The whole figure implies not the endless torture of the wicked in a future life, but the destruction by Christ's fiery baptism, already working, of that chaff which surrounds every grain. Nor can any figure express more completely than does burning chaff the idea of evanescence.
Here I earnestly beg my readers to pause and seriously consider, not traditional prejudices, but plain facts. The usage of Scripture shows decisively, that to press words like "unquenchable, "&c., to a narrow literal meaning makes perfect nonsense. Take some typical instances. A fire is kindled against Israel which is to burn for ever - Jer. xvii. 4, and yet all Israel is to be saved - Rom. xi. 26, so is "the whole house of Israel." - Ez. xxxix. 25. And again, Israel's hurt is "incurable ;" her pain is "incurable " - Jer. xxx. 12, 15,. but in a moment it is added, "I will heal you" of the (incurable) wound, v. 17. So, too, HOSEA more than once declares the rejection of Israel by God, and that no more mercy remains for her: and yet in the same breath asserts her final pardon and reconciliation - Hos. i. 6-9-10; ii 4, 10, 14, 15, 19, 23 ; ix. 15; xiii. 14; xiv. 4; passages well worth our pondering over.
In AMOS the same striking teaching occurs. Israel, it is said, shall no more rise, ch. v. 2. Yet God will raise her up. - ch. ix. xx. All fair readers can see the extreme significance of all this ; and how very far the principle of interpretation, so plainly involved, really goes. Again, though, as we have seen, an express promise of the restoration of all Israel is given, and repeated in the New Testament - Rom. xi. 26, yet an "unquenchable" fire is to burn them up - Jer. vii. 20; "everlasting" reproach and "perpetual" shame is to come on them - Jer. xxiii. 40; "perpetual" hissing - Jer. xviii. 16; and "perpetual" desolations - Jer. xxv. 9; "perpetual" backsliding - Jer. viii. 5.

Click to expand...

Eusebius, Homer, Cyril and any other ancient pagan writer you can name were not prophets inspired by God what they wrote is totally irrelevant to the interpretation of the Bible.
.....Are you familiar with the word "hyperbole?" That words are sometimes used hyperbolically does NOT change the lexical meaning. Can any man quench what God has called unquenchable? I doubt very seriously that God would declare something unquenchable that He, Himself, could not quench, if/when He chose to. Do you have any more word hocus pocus you want to try?
.....How did the Jews understand "unquenchable fire" etc?
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both שׁאולsheol and גי־הנם/gehinnom. translated as "hades" and "Gehenna" in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]
Here are 15 verses where the Greek word "kosmos"/world is used hyperbolically. Do these verses prove that "kosmos" never means the entire planet earth?

[1]Matthew 16:26
(26) What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? [Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]​

Can a person literally inherit the "whole world?"

[2]1 John 5:19
(19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.​

Was "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one?

[3]Revelation 12:9
(9) The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.​

Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray?

[4]Revelation 13:3
(3) One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.​

Did "the whole world" literally follow the beast?

[5]Genesis 41:57 And all the world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe everywhere.​

Did "all the world" literally buy grain from Egypt?

[6]Acts 17:6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other believers before the city officials, shouting: "These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here,​

Did the disciples literally cause trouble "all over the world?"

[7]Acts 19:35 The city clerk quieted the crowd and said: "Fellow Ephesians, doesn't all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven?​

Did "all the world" literally know that Ephesus was the guardian of the pagan deity Artemis?

[8]Acts 24:5 "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect.​

Was Paul literally stirring up riots "all over the world?"

[9]Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.​

Did Caesar literally tax "all the world?"

[10]Acts 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth​

Did "all the world" literally worship the goddess Diana?

[11]Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.​

Was the faith of the Romans literally spoken of throughout "the whole world?"

[12]John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.​

Did the whole world literally go after Jesus?

[13]Acts of the apostles 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;​

Did the Paul’s companions literally turn “the world upside down?”

[14]1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.​

Did the “ends of the world” literally come upon the Israelite who disobeyed God at Sinai?

[15]James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.​

Is the tongue literally a world?
Let us use the fallacious aion/aionios argument on these verses. The word "world" cannot literally mean the entire planet earth because it refers to describe things that are not literally "the whole world" and "all the world."