Jesus' Own Words on the End Times

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The events in those passages took place in AD 70. They weren't speaking of the Last Day. Jesus said "all these things" would take place before "this generation passes." His instruction to flee to the hills above Judea would be pretty silly if he was talking about the day of Resurrection.


When this generation passes, and the time to flee to the hills, are not even the same events to begin with. Even if one places the fleeing to the hills in the end of this age rather than in 70 AD, that still wouldn't make it the last day. It would make it the beginning of great tribulation, and not the last day instead. Your argument is not even valid to begin with, even if these events do happen in the end of this age. No matter where one places the fleeing to the hills, whether in 70 AD, or in the end of this age, there is no resurrection of the dead scheduled to take place at the beginning of great tribulation. And that this generation passing is the last thing on the to do list, apparently.
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,773
1,309
sg
✟214,746.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hi,

Most of what we are told to expect for the End Times comes from the Book of Revelation from what I understand, but what did Jesus HIMSELF say regarding the End Times?? (from my understanding, none of the content in the Book of Revelation actually came from Jesus...)

Thanks for any additional info!

Do you believe in the pre tribulation rapture of the church before his 2nd coming?
 
Upvote 0

Al Touthentop

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2019
2,940
888
61
VENETA
Visit site
✟34,926.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Libertarian
Once you get those tomes knocked out I recommend "Last Days Madness," by Gary Demar. I don't wholly agree with Demar, either; I recommend the book because his is a very blunt confrontation of series problems in modern popular eschatology. Sadly, he's rather abrasive. Completely correct most of the time, but unnecessarily abrasive. I know that's a lot to read but if you read it and find it helpful let me know and I'll make some other recommendations, more in depth treatises from each of the respective eschatological positions.

I really liked Demar's book though he saw everything as AD70 even Peter's writing about the last day.

His chapter on respecting God's time passages though, was excellent.
 
Upvote 0

Al Touthentop

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2019
2,940
888
61
VENETA
Visit site
✟34,926.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Libertarian
When this generation passes, and the time to flee to the hills, are not even the same events to begin with. Even if one places the fleeing to the hills in the end of this age rather than in 70 AD, that still wouldn't make it the last day. It would make it the beginning of great tribulation, and not the last day instead. Your argument is not even valid to begin with, even if these events do happen in the end of this age. No matter where one places the fleeing to the hills, whether in 70 AD, or in the end of this age, there is no resurrection of the dead scheduled to take place at the beginning of great tribulation. And that this generation passing is the last thing on the to do list, apparently.

The great tribulation was part of the destruction of Jerusalem. 1.1 million people died and many resorted to cannibalism due to the Roman siege.

Jesus didn't say there was a resurrection at the beginning of the tribulation.

The generation has passed and those in the generation he was addressing, if they were Christian and listened to his advice and recognized the signs, escaped before the tribulation.

If you pay attention to the words, you'll note that he said everything, including his "coming on the clouds" (a sign he says, not literal return of him in person) was to take place before that generation passed.
 
Upvote 0

Blade

Veteran
Supporter
Dec 29, 2002
8,165
3,989
USA
✟629,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
End times.. were in it. I try to never run with speculation or read something thats not there. Who was Jesus talking to? Who asked Him? No Christians.. no Church. Just Jewish people. So He told them what would happen. And birth pains and on and on. And when those things happen.. when not just earth quake here storm there...its when we see ALL happening at once. And the fig tree.. that generation

What each have to decide is the fig tree Israel? We find in the word many times its speaks end times about Israel..that was not here. So the fig tree twigs are tender and leaves coming out.. we know summer is here. So this generation will certainly not pass away until..key word "ALL" these things have happened. Some thing did happen during their time. That city did get surrounded and they did in a moment not look back.. and flee.

Israel became a nation in a day.. as its written. We saw this happen. Were seeing so many things happening at once now.. we've seen knowledge increases like never before. Again this is written about the end times. Really? When the world uses words like "biblical" to describe something.

All this us mute to me. Well if Christ said behold I am coming soon. He went to make us a place.. He promised to come back and get us so where He is we will be. Granted... I have to admit.. He does not seem to have a watch. :) So am always looking up.. ready NOW! AMEN..even so come lord Yeshua
 
  • Agree
Reactions: J Bella Funk
Upvote 0

Al Touthentop

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2019
2,940
888
61
VENETA
Visit site
✟34,926.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Libertarian
End times.. were in it. I try to never run with speculation or read something thats not there. Who was Jesus talking to? Who asked Him?

His apostles, privately, who wanted to know when the temple would be destroyed and when he was going to execute judgement on Israel.

All this us mute to me. Well if Christ said behold I am coming soon. He went to make us a place.. He promised to come back and get us so where He is we will be. Granted... I have to admit.. He does not seem to have a watch. :) So am always looking up.. ready NOW! AMEN..even so come lord Yeshua

He had a watch. He said those things would happen within a generation. All of them. Note when he makes the statement that they'd all take place within the generation. After he's even stated that they would see the sign of him coming on the clouds.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HTacianas
Upvote 0

Al Touthentop

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2019
2,940
888
61
VENETA
Visit site
✟34,926.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Libertarian
Israel became a nation in a day.. as its written. We saw this happen.

Not in 1948. In fact in that case it wasn't the creation of a nation in a day. The beginning of modern Israel began back in the 19th century.

The prophesy was speaking of Christ's death and resurrection when he established the Kingdom of God of which we as Christians are citizens, both Jew and Gentile.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The great tribulation was part of the destruction of Jerusalem. 1.1 million people died and many resorted to cannibalism due to the Roman siege.

Jesus didn't say there was a resurrection at the beginning of the tribulation.

The generation has passed and those in the generation he was addressing, if they were Christian and listened to his advice and recognized the signs, escaped before the tribulation.

If you pay attention to the words, you'll note that he said everything, including his "coming on the clouds" (a sign he says, not literal return of him in person) was to take place before that generation passed.

I am paying attention to the text but I am not convinced you are. To pay attention to the text actually also involves paying attention to the context it is said in. This generation shall not pass is said within end of this age events context, and not within first century events context instead.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

There is no coming of Christ in any sense during the tribulation of those days, meaning verses 15-26. Verses 23-27 prove it.


Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

But there is a coming of Christ here in verse 30, and according to verse 29 this coming is AFTER the tribulation of those days, meaning AFTER the time of verses 15-26.


Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

This coming in verse 37 is obviously meaning this same coming in verse 30, therefore making the context of verses 33-37 to be meaning after the tribulation of those days, meaning after the time of verses 15-26.

And since one can't logically apply the coming mentioned in verse 30 and 37, to that of the time of verses 15-26, what other coming could this possibly be referring to if not Christ's coming at the end of this age?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: OldWiseGuy
Upvote 0

Al Touthentop

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2019
2,940
888
61
VENETA
Visit site
✟34,926.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Libertarian
I am paying attention to the text but I am not convinced you are. To pay attention to the text actually also involves paying attention to the context it is said in. This generation shall not pass is said within end of this age events context, and not within first century events context instead.

This generation means the current generation.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

In Luke he explains exactly what the abomination of desolation is: Jerusalem surrounded by armies.


16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Silly if this was talking about the end of the world. Why would we flee to the hills above Judea if it's the resurrection he's talking about?

There is no coming of Christ in any sense during the tribulation of those days, meaning verses 15-26. Verses 23-27 prove it.


Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

But there is a coming of Christ here in verse 30, and according to verse 29 this coming is AFTER the tribulation of those days, meaning AFTER the time of verses 15-26.

Except everything he said is followed by the claim that it will ALL take place before "this generation" passes. Near demonstrative. The siege/tribulation of Jerusalem lasted about three years. When they finally entered the city, the inhabitants had resorted to cannibalism.



This coming in verse 37 is obviously meaning this same coming in verse 30, therefore making the context of verses 33-37 to be meaning after the tribulation of those days, meaning after the time of verses 15-26.

Which still is in the context of the same event.
And since one can't logically apply the coming mentioned in verse 30 and 37, to that of the time of verses 15-26, what other coming could this possibly be referring to if not Christ's coming at the end of this age?

The coming of the son of man in judgement against Jerusalem. Nowhere does he say he's coming personally. He says they will see "the sign" of the Son of Man coming on the clouds, not the Son of Man himself.

Take note of the audience. Everything he told them to watch for and actions they should take were to them personally. Church history tells us that not a single Christian was lost to the siege of Jerusalem. They fled when they saw Vespasian's army surround the city. Vespasian left and Titus returned and there was no escaping then. Those who did escape were chased by Titus to Masada where they all committed mass suicide.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,599
Hudson
✟281,635.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Hi,

Most of what we are told to expect for the End Times comes from the Book of Revelation from what I understand, but what did Jesus HIMSELF say regarding the End Times?? (from my understanding, none of the content in the Book of Revelation actually came from Jesus...)

Thanks for any additional info!

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting form our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to the nations before the end (Matthew 24:12-14).
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
He started off his discourse by telling the apostles that not one stone of the temple would be left standing. It's pretty clear he was talking about that.

Perhaps you should read it more carefully.
 
Upvote 0

Al Touthentop

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2019
2,940
888
61
VENETA
Visit site
✟34,926.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Libertarian
Perhaps you should read it more carefully.

Perhaps I have. I once thought that this must have had something to do with the Last Day. But it doesn't work. He says that everything, including his coming on the clouds in power and glory would happen before that generation passed. He doesn't say he's literally coming back at that time but that they would see the sign of the Son of Man. That sign was all of the destruction by the hand of the "prince of their people," Titus.

If you pay attention to the order and their questions, clearly the "end of the age" isn't the end of the world. It just sounds like that if you aren't paying close attention. For the Jews in Jerusalem and elsewhere it was the end of their world. There was no way after that to obey the law of Moses. But it was the end of the age of the old Covenant. And the judgement meted out to them was a tribulation like no other.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HTacianas
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This generation means the current generation.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

In Luke he explains exactly what the abomination of desolation is: Jerusalem surrounded by armies.


16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Silly if this was talking about the end of the world. Why would we flee to the hills above Judea if it's the resurrection he's talking about?



In the end of this age consists of 2 parts. 1) events that lead to the literal end of this age. 2) the literal end of this age. As to the resurrection, would it not be during 2)?

If one is to flee to the hills in the end of this age, this would be meaning during 1) above. Therefore no one would be fleeing to the hills during the resurrection of the dead, since that doesn't happen until 2) above. I don't know why you keep going on about it being silly that one is heading for the hills during the resurrection of the dead, since this wouldn't be the case to begin with? You're using a straw man then, thus your argument is moot.



Which still is in the context of the same event.

How could it be if that coming is after the trib of those days, thus not during the trib of those days instead? If you look at verse 29, after the trib of those days, the sun then goes dark, etc, followed by the sign of the Son of man in heaven, followed by His coming. That places verse 37 after all of these events as well.

Whatever period of time one takes the trib of those days to be referring to, once those trib of days have passed, immediately following that, the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory---For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Silly if this was talking about the end of the world. Why would we flee to the hills above Judea if it's the resurrection he's talking about?

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Why is one to head the hills?

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Is it because of any of this in verse 38-39? Of course not. Verse 38-39 is meaning post verse 15-18 and verse 21. Like I already showed in an earlier post, there is no coming of Christ in any sense taking place during the trib of those days. The coming of Christ is after the trib of those days, after the sun be darkened, etc. When the coming of Christ recorded in Matthew 24 occurs, the trib of those days will be entirely in the past at that point, therefore there is no connection to the trib of those days with that of the coming of Christ in any sense. No such coming takes place during the trib of those days, once again, in any sense.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Al Touthentop

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2019
2,940
888
61
VENETA
Visit site
✟34,926.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Libertarian
\

Why is one to head the hills?

To escape the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans.


Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The same coming, the same event. This coming of the Son of Man is the event he's warning about that he said would happen before "this generation" passed.

Is it because of any of this in verse 38-39? Of course not. Verse 38-39 is meaning post verse 15-18 and verse 21. Like I already showed in an earlier post, there is no coming of Christ in any sense taking place during the trib of those days. The coming of Christ is after the trib of those days, after the sun be darkened, etc. When the coming of Christ recorded in Matthew 24 occurs, the trib of those days will be entirely in the past at that point.

There aren't two events. It's all the same event. He said this generation would not pass before all these things take place. The stars falling from heaven and the darkening of the sun are figurative pictures of the royal powers ceasing to have authority. God described the king of Babylon in the same way. As the 'morning star.' This isn't something to be taken literally.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HTacianas
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,066.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
To escape the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans.


Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The same coming, the same event. This coming of the Son of Man is the event he's warning about that he said would happen before "this generation" passed.



There aren't two events. It's all the same event. He said this generation would not pass before all these things take place. The stars falling from heaven and the darkening of the sun are figurative pictures of the royal powers ceasing to have authority. God described the king of Babylon in the same way. As the 'morning star.' This isn't something to be taken literally.

I have already shown you that the word interpreted "generation" is broader that you will acknowledge. Both the Greek words genos and genea refer to race - in this case the Jewish race. It means "this race" - as in "the successive members of a particular genealogy."

Many speculate on what genea is speaking of, and impose their own opinion of how long they think a generation is to fit your theology. Because you are so sold on Preterism and the coming of Titus in AD70 you cannot accept genea as anything other than 40 years back in Jesus day. To others, the meaning and context suggests that we are looking at an age or race, all depending on the context.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Sal Robinson

Active Member
Supporter
Mar 11, 2018
240
223
33
castle hill
✟100,160.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Remember that while he was on earth Jesus said he's only saying and doing what the Father does, John 5:19, so just because he didn't say anything that's said in revelations while he was on earth does not mean it's not important, God chooses things to be said and done for specific times...

timing is always important
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

GaveMeJoy

Well-Known Member
Nov 28, 2019
993
672
38
San diego
✟41,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Hi,

Most of what we are told to expect for the End Times comes from the Book of Revelation from what I understand, but what did Jesus HIMSELF say regarding the End Times?? (from my understanding, none of the content in the Book of Revelation actually came from Jesus...)

Thanks for any additional info!

If you don’t believe the whole scripture to be inspired by God (meaning Jesus as a member of the trinity inspired all of it) then there really is minimal benefit to making distinctions between which characters said which things regarding eschatology. The gospels weren’t even written for decades after the crucifixion, and the Bible wasn’t compiled and canonized until 400 years after the resurrection.
 
Upvote 0