The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

FineLinen

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2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Dear Lady: There is no, repeat NO, word in koine for the ghastly concept of damn! ! The word is ktisis and means condemnation.

There is no question non-alliance with the One who is truth & taking pleasure in the darkness of unrighteousness has dire consequences.

Welcome to the God of Fire!
 
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FineLinen

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John 5.29=

What Does John 5:29 Mean? "and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."

Rotherham's Translation=

Verily, verily, I say unto you: He that heareth, my word, and believeth in him that sent me, hath life age-abiding, and, into judgment, cometh not, but hath passed over, out of death into life. Verily, verily, I say unto you: There cometh an hour, and now is, when, the dead, shall hearken unto the voice of the Son of God, and, they who have hearkened, shall live. For, just as, the Father, hath life, in himself, in like manner, unto the Son also, hath he given, life, to have, in himself; And, authority, hath he given him, to be executing, judgment,—because, Son of Man, is he! Do not be marveling at this: because there come an hour, in which, all they in the tombs, shall hearken unto his voice, and shall come forth,—they who, the good things, have done, unto a resurrection, of life; but, they who the corrupt things, have practised, unto a resurrection, of judgment.

Jonathan Mitchell N.T. Translation=

::Jonathan Mitchell's New Testament Translation::

“Don’t you folks be constantly amazed at this, because an hour is repeatedly (habitually; continually) coming within which ALL MEN (Everyone) – the ones within the tombs (graves) WILL HEAR His voice,

“and they will come out: the ones doing virtue (making or constructing good) into a resurrection of Life; the ones practicing careless (base, worthless, cheap, slight, paltry, inefficient, thoughtless, common or mean) things into a resurrection of separation and evaluation for a decision (judgment).”

J.B. Phillips=

Jesus said to them, "I assure you that the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. What the Son does is always modelled on what the Father does, for the Father loves the Son and shows him everything that he does himself, Yes, and he will show him even greater things than these to fill you with wonder. For just as the Father raises the dead and makes them live, so does the Son give life to any man he chooses. The Father is no man's judge: he has put judgment entirely into the Son's hands, so that all men may honour the Son equally with the Father. The man who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father who sent him. I solemnly assure you that the man who hears what I have to say and believes in the one who has sent me has eternal life. He does not have to face judgment; he has already passed from death into life. Yes, I assure you that a time is coming, in fact has already come, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and when they have heard it they will live! For just as the Father has life in himself, so by the Father's gift, the Son also has life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is Son of Man. No, do not be surprised - the time is coming when all those who are dead and buried will hear his voice and out they will come - those who have done right will rise again to life, but those who have done wrong will rise to face judgment!
 
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nolidad

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There is biblical support for all three views of the final judgment.
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Restorationism

How can you make your claim against any one of these views?

Because # 2and 3 can only be brought about by looking at a verse alone and apart from the whole counsel of Scripture! When one allows the whole word of God on a subject speak to it- there is only one biblical view and the bible will not support three opposing views.
 
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nolidad

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If it happened once, what's to say it will not happen again? Jesus sees the connection.

Matthew 24:37
For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Luke 17:26
Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man.

With all due respect: How long have you been reading the bible?

Jesus clearly defines earthly punishment and compares it to the days of Noah and how people were oblivious to the tragedy to come. There is no hint that it is speaking of the dead some day being preached to- but life on earth!

If you want it to happen again - you must support that by clear Scripture not some maybe sideways possible comparison.
 
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nolidad

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That would be most gracious of you, thanks.

Well youhave become a part of my life and as such- I am responsible for you to the Lord as you are for me! I do this for all in my church who come to me with some kind of teaching!
 
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FineLinen

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Jesus clearly defines earthly punishment and compares it to the days of Noah and how people were oblivious to the tragedy to come. There is no hint that it is speaking of the dead some day being preached to- but life on earth!

Jesus the Christ indeed does clearly define earthly punishment It is aionios kolasis.

He also has "clearly" made a glorious declaration of His Lordship in His resurrection ministry!

“We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored.”

The risen Christ preaches to the dead

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

Dead=

nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

Breathed his last/ lifeless.

Deceased/ departed.

Destitute of life/ without life.

Inanimate.

Disobedient= apeitheo=

Not to allow one’s self to be persuaded.

To refuse or withhold belief & obedience.

To refuse belief and obedience.

Not to comply with.

Live= zao=

To be alive with resurrection life.

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -Rotherham Emphasized-
 
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Saint Steven

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With all due respect: How long have you been reading the bible?

Jesus clearly defines earthly punishment and compares it to the days of Noah and how people were oblivious to the tragedy to come. There is no hint that it is speaking of the dead some day being preached to- but life on earth!

If you want it to happen again - you must support that by clear Scripture not some maybe sideways possible comparison.
Well, I think I have already shared this with you.
This certainly supports the idea of the dead having "another opportunity".
Which is not really the thrust, but that's what you were asking for.
(it's not an "opportunity", because no one will opt out)

To my amazement, the preacher on that Bad Ideas Part 2 video uses this exact example.
I put this together myself trying to explain Restorationism on the forum.

Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord. (whole-heartedly and without reservation)
Even all those under the earth. (in the realm of the dead)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
 
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Saint Steven

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Well youhave become a part of my life and as such- I am responsible for you to the Lord as you are for me! I do this for all in my church who come to me with some kind of teaching!
Yes. That's good. Maybe I can straighten you out on a few things. You have much to learn grasshopper.
 
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DNB

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My dear boy: Our God IS Fire/ pur. He refuses to leave one broken son of Adam the 1st. alone & unchanged!

Our God is a consuming Fire

Fire Is A Beneficent Agent

How shallow is the common view of “fire” as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of…

“Life”…Isa. 4:5

“Purification”…Matt. 3:3

“Atonement”…Lev. 16:27

“Transformation”…2 Pet. 3:10

And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.

And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God’s fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.

Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, “aflame to the very tips of our fingers.” And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.

Fire Is The Sign Of God’s Being

And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.

Fire is the sign, not of God’s wrath, but of His being.

When God comes to Ezekiel there is a “fire unfolding itself” (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and “the appearance of fire.” (Ezek. 8:2)

Christ’s eyes are a flame of “fire” (Rev. 1:14).

The seven lamps of “fire” are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said “to go before God,” His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God’s ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4…Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.

Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome

It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes–call it, if you please, a paradox–in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, “Thy God is a consuming Fire,” and “Thy God is a merciful God” (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)–words full of significance.

So Isaiah tells us of God’s cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)–suggestive words. And, so again, “By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh.” (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by “fire.” (Mal. 3:2).

Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?

Let us note, also, how often “fire” is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in “fire:” God answers Gideon by “fire;” and David by “fire.” (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by “fire;” and in “fire” Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of “fire.” So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by “fire.” (Psl. 18:6-8)

And by the pillar of “fire” God gave His law. And in “fire” the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."

Fire Is The Portion Of All

These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that “fire,” like judgment, so far from being the sinner’s portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God’s judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is “already kindled,” always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. “I am come to send fire on the earth,” for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the “fire is to try every man’s work.” He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned “so as by fire,” by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.

The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, “He that is near Me is near fire,” expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work “like a refiner’s fire.” And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that “our God is a consuming Fire,” i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but “Our God is a consuming Fire”–a consuming Fire, “by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed.”

When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that “coals of fire” go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are “coals of fire” to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious “fires” of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner’s doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these “fires” not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise–

"Behold, I make all things new."

-Christ Triumphant-
I highly commend you on your thesis, very exhaustive and comprehensive. But, completely out of context. Each use of the word 'fire', in the passages that you quoted, had a diverse meaning (some antithetical to your point), and all were figurative.

Yes, fire tests, cleanses & purifies, punishes, tempers, etc... All these uses are figurative or analogous, as all the examples are referring to fire against material things. Fire tempers diamonds, salt cleanses and sanitizes corporeal or material items, fire alters the state of material or physical items, etc... None of these applications can change a man's heart, which is the whole point of redemption. All the uses that you cited were analogies referring to material objects.
God is searching for sincere and devoted believers, fire does not achieve this. Only wisdom can alter a man's disposition, that is why is was laid before the foundations of the world, and why it is the greatest gift ever sought. And this is what the Gospel of Christ does (wisdom of God, foolishness to the world), it changes a man's heart, ....depending on the man.

Judgement Day will prove which one of us, the Gospel has penetrated our hearts. Nothing of which, fire or any other element can do.
 
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DNB

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Bad Ideas 05: God Tortures People Forever (Part 2) It's Hell Week Part Deux! "So why would I ever trust in a God who tortures people forever?" In this sermon we look at some practical responses to that common question. Plus we dive deeper into understanding more about Conditionalism and Restorationalism.
Quoting Bruxy Cavey does no justice to your argument. Besides, will someone tell him to cut his hair?!

1 Corinthians 11:14. Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him,
 
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Saint Steven

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Quoting Bruxy Cavey does no justice to your argument. Besides, will someone tell him to cut his hair?!

1 Corinthians 11:14. Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him,
Thanks for watching the video. I hope you saw part 1 as well.
I personally thought that he did a great job of presenting the three views of the final judgment. Amazingly he used the same "Jesus is Lord" argument that I have been presenting here. (great minds, as they say...)
 
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FineLinen

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God is searching for sincere and devoted believers, fire does not achieve this. Only wisdom can alter a man's disposition, that is why is was laid before the foundations of the world, and why it is the greatest gift ever sought. And this is what the Gospel of Christ does (wisdom of God, foolishness to the world), it changes a man's heart, ....depending on the man.

Judgement Day will prove which one of us, the Gospel has penetrated our hearts. Nothing of which, fire or any other element can do.

Dear young DNB: You can go on and on "depending on the man", I will stay glued to the God who can be trusted to complete what He has begun as Author. In His essence as Love & Fire brings the all, the ta pante, to consummation as the Finisher, every last digit!

The Glorious One can be trusted!
 
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FineLinen

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By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the…

Ex= The Source

Di= The Agent

Eiv= The Goal

The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

Romans 11:36

ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.

**It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”

The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.]

The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.

In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis
 
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DNB

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Thanks for watching the video. I hope you saw part 1 as well.
I personally thought that he did a great job of presenting the three views of the final judgment. Amazingly he used the same "Jesus is Lord" argument that I have been presenting here. (great minds, as they say...)
Sorry Steven, I didn't watch the video. The minute that I saw Bruxy's image on the thumbnail, i took out my crucifix and threw holy water on the screen.
To me, having Bruxy Cavey as one's advocate, is like having Donald Trump as your advocate.
 
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Dear young DNB: You can go on and on "depending on the man", I will stay glued to the God who can be trusted to complete what He has begun as Author. In His essence as Love & Fire brings the all, the ta pante, to consummation as the Finisher, every last digit!

The Glorious One can be trusted!
You know that your Universalism is telling people that they don't need to confess Christ as Lord & Saviour? Neither to believe it in their heart, nor to confess it with their mouth.
You know that your Universalism is telling people that it makes no difference whether or not that they carry the mark of the beast on their forehead? Neither, whether they curse God, or blaspheme the Holy Spirit? None of this matters to their salvation because ta pante means 'all'.
 
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FineLinen

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You know that your Universalism is telling people that they don't need to confess Christ as Lord & Saviour? Neither to believe it in their heart, nor to confess it with their mouth.
You know that your Universalism is telling people that it makes no difference whether or not that they carry the mark of the beast on their forehead? Neither, whether they curse God, or blaspheme the Holy Spirit? None of this matters to their salvation because ta pante means 'all'.
Dear DNB: NONSENSE!

Coming into union with the Glorious One is the work of the Holy One. It has nothing to do with the will of the flesh, NOTHING! ! !

The fact is ta pante means ALL, not some/tis, not monos or monon/only, the radical, radical ALL.

"God IS the Saviour of all mankind, especially all those who believe/trust into Him. Command this & teach this."
 
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God is Saviour, not a potential Saviour, He IS!
 
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Dear Lady: There is no, repeat NO, word in koine for the ghastly concept of damn! ! The word is ktisis and means condemnation.

There is no question non-alliance with the One who is truth & taking pleasure in the darkness of unrighteousness has dire consequences.

Welcome to the God of Fire!

Phonetic Spelling: (ktis'-is) Definition: creation (the act or the product) Usage: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance.

Strong's Concordance
ktisis: creation (the act or the product)
Original Word: κτίσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ktisis
Phonetic Spelling: (ktis'-is)
Definition: creation (the act or the product)
Usage: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2937 ktísis – properly, creation (creature) which is founded from nothing (this is also the sense of this term from Homer on); creation out of nothing (Lat ex nihilo). See 2936 (ktizō) and 2939 /ktístēs ("the Creator") for lengthy discussion on "creation-facts."
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2937: κτίσις

κτίσις, κτίσεως, ἡ (κτίζω), in Greek writings the act of founding, establishing, building, etc.; in the N. T. (Vulg. everywherecreatura (yet Hebrews 9:11creatio))
1. the act of creating, creation: τοῦ κόσμου, Romans 1:20.

2. equivalent to κτίσμα, creation i. e. thing created (cf. Winers Grammar, 32); used a. of individual things and beings, a creature, a creation: Romans 1:25; Hebrews 4:13; any created thing, Romans 8:39; after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called חֲדָשָׁה בִּרִיָה (cf. Schöttgen, Horae Hebr 1:328, 704f)), καινή κτίσις is used of a man regenerated through Christ, Galatians 6:15; 2 Corinthians 5:17.

b. collectively, the sum or aggregate of created things: Revelation 3:14 (on which see ἀρχή, 3; (ἡ κτίσις τῶν ἀνθρώπων, Teaching of the Twelve etc.

c. 16 [ET])); ὅλῃ ἡ κτίσις, Wis. 19:6; πᾶσα ἡ κτίσις, Judith 16:14; and without the article (cf. Grimm on 3 Macc. (), p. 235; (Lightfoot on Col. as below)), πᾶσα κτίσις, Colossians 1:15; 3Macc. 2:2; Judith 9:12; σωτήρ πάσης κτίσεως, Acta Thomae, p. 19 edition Thilo (sec. 10, p. 198, Tdf. edition) (see πᾶς, I. 1 c.); ἀπ' ἀρχῆς κτίσεως, Mark 10:6; Mark 13:19; 2 Peter 3:4; οὐ ταύτης τῆς κτίσεως, not of this order of created things, Hebrews 9:11; accusative to the demands of the context, of some particular kind or class of created things or beings: thus of the human race, πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει, Mark 16:15; ἐν πάσῃ (Rec. adds τῇ) κτίσει τῇ ὑπό τόν οὐρανοῦ, among men of every race, Colossians 1:23; the aggregate of irrational creatures, both animate and inanimate (what we call nature), Romans 8:19-2. (Wis. 5:17 (); ); πᾶσα ἡ κτίσις, Romans 8:22; where cf. Reiche, Philippi, Meyer, Rükert, others (Arnold in Bapt. Quart. for Apr. 1867, pp. 143-153).

condemn
CONDEMN, v.t. L., to condemn, to disapprove, to doom, to devote.

1. To pronounce to be utterly wrong; to utter a sentence of disapprobation against; to censure; to blame. But the word often expresses more than censure or blame, and seems to include the idea of utter rejection; as, to condemn heretical opinions; to condemn ones conduct.

We condemn mistakes with asperity, where we pass over sins with gentleness.

2. To determine or judge to be wrong, or guilty; to disallow; to disapprove.

Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, we have confidence towards God. I John 3.

3. To witness against; to show or prove to be wrong, or guilty, by a contrary practice.

The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it. Matthew 12.

4. To pronounce to be guilty; to sentence to punishment; to utter sentence against judicially; to doom; opposed to acquit or absolve; with to before the penalty.

The son of man shall be betrayed to the chief priests, and to the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death. Matthew 20.

He that believeth on him is not condemned. John 3.

5. To doom or sentence to pay a fine; to fine.

And the king of Egypt--condemned the land in a hundred talents of silver. 2 Chronicles 36.

6. To judge or pronounce to be unfit for use or service; as, the ship was condemned as not sea-worthy. To judge or pronounce to be forfeited; as, the ship and her cargo were condemned.

3. an institution, ordinance: 1 Peter 2:13; cf. Huther at the passage ((Pindar, others.))
CONDEMN - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

Greek words for condemnation include καταδίκη, κατάκριση and καταδικαστικά.

damnation
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UK:*UK and possibly other pronunciationsUK and possibly other pronunciations/ˌdæmˈneɪʃən/US:USA pronunciation: IPA and respellingUSA pronuncation: IPA/dæmˈneɪʃən/ ,USA pronunciation: respelling(dam nāshən)


ορισμός | στα ισπανικά | στα γαλλικά | συνώνυμα στα αγγλικά | Conjugator [EN] | σε χρήση | εικόνες WR Apps: Android & iPhoneWord of the day

Λείπει κάτι σημαντικό; Αναφέρετε τυχόν λάθη ή προτείνετε βελτιώσεις.

Λείπει κάτι σημαντικό; Αναφέρετε τυχόν λάθη ή προτείνετε βελτιώσεις.

Ο όρος 'damnation' βρέθηκε επίσης στις εγγραφές:
Στην αγγλική περιγραφή:
deadly sin - fire-and-brimstone - perdition - tarnation
Συνώνυμα: hell, malediction, perdition, evil eye, excommunication, περισσότερα…

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More Greek words for damnation
καταδίκη noun
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katadíki̱ conviction, condemnation, sentence, doom
κόλαση noun
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kólasi̱ hell, inferno, blazes, gehenna
 
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Dear Lady: The middle Name of Jesus the Christ is Iésous. He is not a potential Saviour, He Is Saviour!

Every broken and bruised product of the 1st Adam will ultimately know after whatever degree of condemnation is required by Abba, salvation cascading down from Him in manifold degrees of glory.

The radical all = Adam1 "all die" > >Last Adam = "all made alive again."
 
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