Non-believers prevail in suit against FL county that forbade secular invocations

Paulos23 said:

It is when only one group is allowed too before a government meeting.

Click to expand...

When all religious groups in a given area are invited and take turns giving an invocation, then none are stopped who have a form of religion that has a presence in an area..

No one is prevented from building their religious institutions in this country.. so if you dont have one in an area you apparently have no higher power to invoke or have no number in the area.

Hazelelponi said:

Because this has been done since day 1 of our nation's existence. .

It's a tradition that's a good and positive thing..

Click to expand...

The fact that it has been done before doesn't make it good or positive. I would argue it is no longer unifying people any more, in fact it is isolating them.

They should do away with it, or just have a moment of silence for people to pray silently if they wish.

Paulos23 said:

The fact that it has been done before doesn't make it good or positive. I would argue it is no longer unifying people any more, in fact it is isolating them.

They should do away with it, or just have a moment of silence for people to pray silently if they wish.

Click to expand...

It's not isolating anyone...

At this point this discussion is just ignorant. Good day.

Hazelelponi said:

When all religious groups in a given area are invited and take turns giving an invocation, then none are stopped who have a form of religion that has a presence in an area..

Click to expand...

Did you look at the charts in the op? That was not happening in that county. And the story is the same throughout America. It is not suprising that many of them have dropped the invocation.

No one is prevented from building their religious institutions in this country.. so if you dont have one you apparently have no higher power to invoke!

Click to expand...

You are confusing private prayer with prayer before a government meeting.

Hazelelponi said:

It's not isolating anyone...

At this point this discussion is just ignorant. Good day.

Click to expand...

The fact you think it is not isolating anyone shows your privilege.

Hazelelponi said:

Because this has been done since day 1 of our nation's existence. .

It's a tradition that's a good and positive thing..

Click to expand...

We had slavery since day 1, too.

‘Tradition’ alone doesn’t make something good. Just because we’ve always done it doesn’t make it right.

iluvatar5150 said:

Uh no. Losing special privileges does not equate to hatred or persecution.

Click to expand...

So we can dump Affirmative Action then?

grasping the after wind said:

So we can dump Affirmative Action then?

Click to expand...

If we've completely corrected all the self-perpetuating disadvantages wrought by centuries of enslavement, oppression, and discrimination, sure.

I would appreciate if people would stop quoting me... I'm absolutely out of this conversation, such comparisons such as an attempt to compare prayer to slavery is the height of ignorance and out of line on a Christian forum.

Please stop quoting me, I have nothing further to say to these types of posts..

Any further quotes will lead to me simply putting people on ignore.

Hazelelponi said:

I would appreciate if people would stop quoting me... I'm absolutely out of this conversation, such comparisons such as an attempt to compare prayer to slavery is the height of ignorance and out of line on a Christian forum.

Click to expand...

I merely made the comparison to show that just because something is done traditionally doesn’t necessarily make it a good thing. We ‘traditionally’ had slavery in this country.

I’m not sure what you would find offensive about that statement. I’m clearly not saying that slavery and prayer are the same thing, just that being tradition doesn’t mean a certain thing should be done.

Paulos23 said:

The fact you think it is not isolating anyone shows your privilege.

Click to expand...

Does this dynamic of isolation and privilege exist or apply in those contexts when it is professing Christians who are clearly in the minority (e.g., on many secular college campuses in the west, particularly among professors in many departments), such that there could be such a thing as "atheist privilege" or, more broadly, "non-Christian privilege", not to be obscured by the dynamics of the larger society? (i.e., the society itself is still at least nominally majority-Christian, but in this or that context or aspect it is non-Christians who have a clear sociopolitical advantage.)

Just curious.

Hazelelponi said:

It's not a show of power to pray...

Apparently you know nothing at all about prayer.

Click to expand...

That completely misses the point of what I was saying.

It is a show of power to have Christains take over the meeting, have their "welcome" to Christians (as a public group Christian prayer) and deny the atheist their ability to have their "welcome" to Atheists that also belong to the community.

Hazelelponi said:

Because this has been done since day 1 of our nation's existence. .

It's a tradition that's a good and positive thing..

Click to expand...

Change and progression is a good and positive thing.
Without change you would still have slavery or segregation.

Citing, lets do it this way, because this is the way it has been done in the past, isn't really a decent argument. It only suits those people whom like the current system and are willing to ignore the plight of others.

Hazelelponi said:

How is tyrannical to spend a few minutes before the start of a meeting to ask for God to guide the meeting so that good decisions are made?

I think you're misunderstanding what tyranny even is if that's your idea of tyrannical.

tyranny- cruel and oppressive government or rule.

Prayer is made in the hopes that doesn't happen in the ensuing meetings... not in order to oppress.

Click to expand...

You don’t understand. Or, perhaps you do, but would rather play semantic games. The ‘tyranny of the majority’ is a phrase used to describe the philosophy that people like you obviously hold, wherein the majority decision is enforced simply because it is the majority and does not take into account the views or desires held by the minority.
As I stated earlier, a fair society is often judged by the manner in which it tolerates the views and wishes held by the minority groups within it.

Hazelelponi said:

Where two or three are gathered in My Name, there I am in the midst of them.. hence an invocation.

Click to expand...

And, as is often the case, there is a Bible verse that completely contradicts that one. I believe it’s in Matthew and says something about keeping your prayers to yourself, rather than showing them off in public...

Our money says "in God we trust".

Click to expand...

Only since the 50’s and solely for political purposes....so what?

Then I can see those who sincerely hate God might take offense, otherwise, I don't see any issues that should arise.

Click to expand...

How is it possible to “hate” that for whose existence you do not accept...?

Hazelelponi said:

When all religious groups in a given area are invited and take turns giving an invocation, then none are stopped who have a form of religion that has a presence in an area..

No one is prevented from building their religious institutions in this country.. so if you dont have one in an area you apparently have no higher power to invoke or have no number in the area.

Click to expand...

Invocations can be other than religious in nature...

stevil said:

If they must do it with other Christians, can't they have a get together before the town hall, perhaps meet at someones house or church and do the whole group prayer thing with fellow believers?

Click to expand...

I don't know how important tradition is in your country but in the US it's pretty important to many of us as is patriotism.
Prayer has been opening government meetings since the beginning of our nation. The Continental Congress was opened with prayer in 1774. There's a church in PA that has a stain glass window, the Liberty Window, that depicts this first prayer in 1774.
We all know that things are changing and some need to change but that doesn't mean that it will come easily for many. Change can be difficult for many people and it can take them a long time to climatize to the new.

Hank77 said:

I don't know how important tradition is in your country but in the US it's pretty important to many of us as is patriotism.
Prayer has been opening government meetings since the beginning of our nation. The Continental Congress was opened with prayer in 1774. There's a church in PA that has a stain glass window, the Liberty Window, that depicts this first prayer in 1774.
We all know that things are changing and some need to change but that doesn't mean that it will come easily for many. Change can be difficult for many people and it can take them a long time to climatize to the new.

Click to expand...

Yeah, culture is an incredibly difficult thing to change. It can be scary for some people and hence often meets much resistance.
I do understand that USA has this massive patriotism thing going on. My perception is that it is especially strong with conservatives and as well as tradition can be something revered by conservatives and the religious. And maybe these things combine to become a resistance to immigration which has the potential to change a culture.

I can't fully understand it myself. I'm not attached to traditions and I'm open to change. One thing that I hold strong is the idea that a governed country be inclusive and that all people of that country are to be held as equally important. I love the idea of diversity and freedom, I think it makes a country much more interesting and "richer" from a culture perspective.
Not being a person from USA, I obviously think differently from those that have lived there their entire lives. I think I could be more aligned with socially liberal USA folk from the northern states, but they can understand the USA conservatives much better than me. I am often baffled by it.

I don't think NZ is particularly traditional. We are open to progress.

dzheremi said:

In America, the same freedoms that allow people of my Church the right to worship and give public invocations when requested (as happened a little while ago in Michigan, if I recall correctly) allows others of different beliefs to do the same. This is a good thing, even if I don't personally agree with those other beliefs. This is really basic stuff.

Click to expand...

It is really basic....and yet, it seems a couple generation of Christians have been led to believe their faith resides on having preference in the public square.

iluvatar5150 said:

If we've completely corrected all the self-perpetuating disadvantages wrought by centuries of enslavement, oppression, and discrimination, sure.

Click to expand...

Hoe does Affirmative action correct any of that? Privileging people in the present does not correct enslavement, oppression or discrimination of the past. It simply changes the criterion for who gets the privileges. If getting even rather than correction is the motive then I would expect that the wrongs of the past will motivate people to get even in perpetuity. Those of one group or another will claim that sometime in the past some other group was atrocious to their group so they need to be atrocious in return now to correct that. Rather than correction it is perpetuation of the ideas of Confederate slaveholders, Nazis, and Eugenicists that being born into a group is what constitutes one's whole identity .