Lets vote for the Bible to be our form of government- #vote for God

createdtoworship · Feb 13, 2020

Dave L said:
Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world.

But His Kingdom is coming. It's not here yet. But we can prepare, be a forerunner like John the baptist, prepare the government to be ruled by Christ.

createdtoworship · Feb 13, 2020

life with Jesus isn’t about showing others that you’re better than them.

It’s about showing others that they can be better with Jesus.

That is the point of a theocracy to make Christ known.

Dave L · Feb 13, 2020

createdtoworship said:
But His Kingdom is coming. It's not here yet. But we can prepare, be a forerunner like John the baptist, prepare the government to be ruled by Christ.

His kingdom is spiritual and non violent. It's here now. Has been since he began teaching it in the gospel.

Resha Caner · Feb 13, 2020

lsume said:
What is coming is not good.

I think that's one of the main points of John's Revelation. I also don't think it's anything new. There's no recent "turning of a corner". Nations have been rising and falling since the first nation rose - since Adam and Eve left Eden. Maybe the U.S. is in decline. Maybe not. How about we wait until it actually falls to declare it dead.

Regardless, even if the U.S. falls, Christ still prevails.

Resha Caner · Feb 13, 2020

createdtoworship said:
life with Jesus isn’t about showing others that you’re better than them.

It’s about showing others that they can be better with Jesus.

That is the point of a theocracy to make Christ known.

Theocracy doesn't do that. That's what evangelism is for. Theocracy punishes people for breaching religious laws. The Apostles didn't say, "OK, Jesus has ascended so our first step is to seize control of Rome."

When Peter tried that, he got this Matthew 26:51-54. Jesus repeated the same lesson to Pilate.

If you want to show people Christ, then do that. Talk to them. Be an example for them. Don't threaten to put them in jail or a death camp because they're doing something you don't like.

Quartermaine · Feb 13, 2020

createdtoworship said:
well I suppose you would have to prove it tyrannical.

you have already done a fine job of that.

But you ignored my question. I will not subject my self or my family to your tyrannical government. Neither will hundreds of millions of others. So what happens to us?

lsume · Feb 13, 2020

Resha Caner said:
I think that's one of the main points of John's Revelation. I also don't think it's anything new. There's no recent "turning of a corner". Nations have been rising and falling since the first nation rose - since Adam and Eve left Eden. Maybe the U.S. is in decline. Maybe not. How about we wait until it actually falls to declare it dead.

Regardless, even if the U.S. falls, Christ still prevails.

What The Lord has shown me is that the real turning point occurred when Israel became a nation. I’m not an end times guy by any means. We’re all dead in 120 years so time is short from the moment your born. Moral decay comes before the fall in the past. Seek God The Father with all that you have. Seek and you shall find is a great promise. You don’t have long to find Him.

PloverWing · Feb 13, 2020

createdtoworship said:
I have said before I wouldn't endorse sectarianism, or denominationalism. That is not the point. I don't wish to make a certain pastor rich. I would select first and foremost 12 apologests, ravi zacharius, ron rhodes, ken ham, kent hovind, norman geisler, june hunt, john ankerburg, the berean call ministry, hank hanagraaf, but I haven't prayed for a list of exact people, these are just people off hand that I like, that offer a unique perspective into apologetics.

createdtoworship said:
Sure. But fundamentalism is what will be represented, not one denomination or another. That is the misconception people often see, that one sect will run the government. No, the government will literally codify the Bible as law, the Bible will define what is Christian. And the Bible will be interpreted by those from the top seminaries of the country.

You say that it wouldn't be one sect running the government, but you also say "fundamentalism", and the people in your list of 12 mostly come from one particular type of Evangelical or Fundamentalist Protestant Christianity. Hanegraaff has become Eastern Orthodox, so that gives the list a little variety, but otherwise I'm seeing a very narrow type of Christianity running the government.

createdtoworship said:
You think the Bible's author is a dictator, mentally insane, and is power hungry? sheesh.

This is one of the big problems with a so-called theocracy. If God himself were leading the country -- God directly speaking to us, in a way that everyone could agree that it was God speaking (big booming voice?) -- then that's something I would consider. But that's not what you're proposing. You're proposing that you (or someone like you), accompanied by your circle of 12, would be the spokesman of God for the country. I do not trust you to be the voice of God.

GACfan · Feb 13, 2020

Tropical Wilds said:
So essentially, adopting the same government structure as Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, only instead of fundamentalist Islam, it would be fundamentalist Christian. Goodness knows, it works so well in the Middle East, it should work equally as well here. Americans have long held that region up as a beacon for the ideal social and governmental structure for the last 50 years, they should be thrilled to pieces over a Christian-based Middle East government model.

The Handmaid's Tale came to my mind while reading the posts advocating for a dominating Christian theocracy. We could end up with a tyrannical religious government similar to the Republic of Gilead.

lsume · Feb 13, 2020

createdtoworship said:
I am of the opinion that all problems in society came from the fall yes, but secondly they came from involving the first hebrew nation in the old testament to have a kingship. Some say that theocracies never work, yet we have never had a government simply legislate the Bible alone. The Jews never followed the strict tanach. They would go thousands of years not even reading the torah, and then King Josiah finds the scrolls one day all bundled up in the temple. So no we have never had a theocracy, accept before King saul. But no theocracy in the last four thousand years for sure. NOT A STRICT THEOCRACY.

The first amendment protects freedom of religion in some ways. And for that I am grateful, however I believe it also make it illegal to legislate religion as well.

What does the new testament teach about Government?
My theory is to follow this scripture:
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17

if political work is a good work, then the Bible it says "equips for every good work."

then that including politics, and that means that it is good to be used for political purposes.
Can you follow the logic? Now there are many misconceptions of what it would mean to legislate scripture as law legally speaking and I wish to take previous comments from other threads (now closed to start of this conversation if that is ok).

The first comment was from @Greengardener and she said this:

There are some questions as to what laws should be made into civil law. For example the law "you shall worship no other God." Does that mean it's illegal to be atheist or muslim? Well I would if I were to be in the place of trump running for 2020 as a person who would legislate the Bible. Upon getting elected I would have the top seminaries send the best of the best leaders and christian thinkers (which I would vet and interview with a panel) and declare what orthodox christianity is, and what doctrines incorporate that. The Trinity, soteriology, and covenants or dispensations, and any other doctrine.

On first hand I would outlaw non essential businesses from operating on the Sabbath. Gas stations, emergency rooms, police, hospitals, firefighters, etc are considered emergency services, they could all work but most commerce 99% of it would cease. But I am not sure about the gas station thing yet, I don't know if they are emergency. One could always have a spare can of gas. As far as American Holidays, there needs to be some explanation as to what is pagan and what is not. I believe Constantine blended roman holidays, pagan holidays with a christian twist when he converted to christianity. So they had pagan holidays, He gets saved, and now these same pagan holidays, now have a christian name. So we would do something a little different. We would take the christian part of the holiday, and remove the pagan aspects of them. This to me is only something that makes sense in a theocracy. Doing so now is merely personal basis. So for example on Christmas we would celebrate christs birth, but we would not have a tree, which was the pagan addition, but we would have something equally as fun, we would not take something away that we didn't substitute for something better. On easter we would have the resurrection celebrated but we would substitute out the easter bunny and the eggs which was the pagan addition. But we would still celebrate easter sunday, good friday....everyone would have good friday off as a paid holiday universally.

Again just because someone who had religious principles in government failed to follow the religion, does not mean that will be the case this time. That is called the fallacy of poisoning the well. Just because something is hard does not mean we don't do everything in our power to do what is right. I have a hard time believing that.

again Christ showed how religiousness without relationship was worthless, and condemned moralism and religiosity, without faith in Christ as the motivator. Christ sets us free from the law of sin and death, never the less. The law is not bad it is a school teacher to bring us to faith in Christ. While we will be legally required to follow the ten commandments you can follow them and still not be saved. It's not by our works we are saved. So this would just be civil law.

yes under normal circumstances I would agree that this task would be an impossibility. But our God is a God of the impossible and the Bible actually asks us to do impossible things in the name of Christ..."be perfect as I am perfect" for example. But to say it will happen like this this time, is impossible to know if we don't try.

Yes I would fast and pray for each member and ask for prayer and have prayer meetings to cover all of our own board meetings. If God is a God of prayer, He would meet us in our prayer and bless our nation. But ultimately if I was running for president I would have a choice over who was in the cabinet. Who was over everything. And I ultimately would pray to God to see what He wants me to do, not what I would want to do.

Power I am afraid is the one thing that would destroy the christian rule. Due to pride. But the fact that christianity is so peculiar to our culture: (homosexuality is wrong, a woman should submit, no women pastors, one woman one man marriage) that these things are meant to be rejected by the masses and people would in fact hate God's rule. So I don't think this will happen, but it's only because we don't truly believe in God's word, nor in the power of God to do something like this. But the Bible explicitly says if we had the faith of a mustard seed, He could move a mountain into the ocean.

I have been talking about this in other threads. All freedoms that one man gains, is at the cost of another mans freedom. The right to bear arms is at the cost of another mans freedom not to want people around him to be armed. The freedom to have homosexuals marry is at the cost of the freedom of a christian pastors rights NOT to marry them, or bake a cake for them, or take pictures of their event, etc. So you see, freedom is not free. Most if not all freedoms cost something. Freedom comes from God but it's not free. It is very costly. So again in Jesus condemning homosexuality He literally took their freedom away to become christian and obtain eternal life. He did so with the adulterer, and the thief and the lyer as well in dozens of verses. So yes Christianity does take away freedoms, it's probably one of the most limiting religion in the world as far as "worldly freedoms." But one of the most joyful for sure, due to serving others in Christ's love.

The early colonizers had in some limited aspects the same view I do, "let God rule the nation." It's not my own theory it's been practiced in some forms in some limited circles every since america was founded. In fact in a supreme court ruling a supreme court justice ruled "america is a christian nation." This ruling was overturned by the bill of rights and the constitution itself. But we should still strive for God to rule, again if scripture is "given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and if political work is good work, then the Bible it says that itself alone "equips for every good work." so that including politics, and that means it can and should be legislated. Now that does not mean we should not each have our own walk with God and our own prayer life. But my cabinet by law will be required to read scripture, memorize scripture, to pray over decisions in various ways that will be part of their job. And if I don't think their walk with the Lord is right, or if they are getting too proud, I can fire them for no reason at all. Like any president can.

I believe that The Word of God Tells us what is going to happen period. Any man made attempt at legislating government through The Bible would fail just as organized churches have fallen away from the Gospel. The sinful nature of man mandates failure at all of his attempts at self governance. The individual Christian must walk as worthy as possible at all times by Grace through Faith. There is a great example of this in history. I’m confident that with prayer you will quickly understand.

ViaCrucis · Feb 13, 2020

"My kingdom is not of this world."

A theocracy isn't just a bad idea, it's biblically and theologically unsound. Christ, who lives and reigns at the right hand of the Father, has been given all power and dominion. How does He rule? He rules through His Church--a Church called to service, love, and the cross. It is to peace we have been called, to servanthood, to acts of kindness, to the preaching of forgiveness, to the alleviation of our neighbor's suffering. Not to power. Glory is not Christ's way, Christ's way is the Cross.

-CryptoLutheran

A Realist · Feb 13, 2020

createdtoworship said:
But His Kingdom is coming. It's not here yet. But we can prepare, be a forerunner like John the baptist, prepare the government to be ruled by Christ.

Your line of thinking smacks of dominionism.
Dominionism Rising

Jamdoc · Feb 13, 2020

A Realist said:
Your line of thinking smacks of dominionism.
Dominionism Rising

It's also very unbiblical. There is not a forerunner to Christ returning and establishing his Millennial Kingdom, there's a falling away.

angelkiss · Feb 13, 2020

createdtoworship said:
God could do everything Himself, yet He chooses to use us, think about that for a second, yes the flesh is weak but the spirit is willing.

Indeed He does use us. However, when it comes to this particular situation, one moment of weakness in the flesh can spell disaster. It's happened too many times before. Even in times more recent, there have been church leaders fall to temptations and made a real mess of things.

this would solve that problem.

again since pentacost, we literally have the same power that resurrected Christ living in us, do I think it will be hard. You doubt. Do I think christians will fight for power, money, greed....in the process of becoming a theocracy....probably. But God can do things that are impossible through His Holy spirit. I just read a tweet the other day I want to post it....

"U must know God’s voice 2 deliver PROPHETICLY! I was in the store today & God told me 2 go up to this lady & tell her “KEEP on TRUCKIN!” The lady started cryin, she said she just lost her husband & was at a crossroads at whether 2 sale her husband’s TRUCKIN Business!"

posted by a twitter user.

As far as having the same power that resurrected Christ living in us, I 100% agree. But, once again, we are faced with the flesh in constant battle with the Spirit. Since the beginning of time, the most faithful and true have been known to let self get in the way of God's will from time to time. Not even the biggest of saints that have walked this earth have been exempt from their share of failures, except Christ Himself. It's not God that I don't have faith in. It's mankind.

As far as the twitter....
God actually worked through me in a similar way. He had me walk up to a woman I had never met before and give her a hug. At that moment, His Spirit wrapped around us both and it was one of the best feelings ever. Turns out, that woman was a Christian woman who was being persecuted at all angles over standing up for her rights. Had I not listened to His voice and been obedient, a blessing would have surely been missed and maybe even something more.

Once more I stress that especially, in the rebellious time we are living in, to try and force Christianity upon everyone is not the way to go about things. Think back to what got prayer thrown out and the Ten Commandments taken down to begin with. Rebellion.
Not to mention, that would be equivalent to another religion making their beliefs law and every Christian having to abide by them or be punished. Where would we be then?
Christ didn't suffer and die so that we can take matters into our own hands and take His Word and use it in a way to control others. And that's exactly what this would be.
God's instruction is one thing. Man using God's instruction as a means of control is another and borders on cult formality.

ViaCrucis · Feb 13, 2020

The proposal in this thread is diametrically at odds with the Lutheran Confessions, as such being at odds with orthodox Lutheranism,

"Also they teach that at the Consummation of the World Christ will appear for judgment, and will raise up all the dead; He will give to the godly and elect eternal life and everlasting joys, but ungodly men and the devils He will condemn to be tormented without end.

They condemn the Anabaptists, who think that there will be an end to the punishments of condemned men and devils.

They condemn also others who are now spreading certain Jewish* opinions, that before the resurrection of the dead the godly shall take possession of the kingdom of the world, the ungodly being everywhere suppressed." - Augsburg Confession, Article XVII

*That is, the belief in a militarily-minded messianic movement that results in the overthrowing of the kingdoms and the establishment of a kind of messianic golden age.

-CryptoLutheran

Jamdoc · Feb 13, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
The proposal in this thread is diametrically at odds with the Lutheran Confessions, as such being at odds with orthodox Lutheranism,

"Also they teach that at the Consummation of the World Christ will appear for judgment, and will raise up all the dead; He will give to the godly and elect eternal life and everlasting joys, but ungodly men and the devils He will condemn to be tormented without end.

They condemn the Anabaptists, who think that there will be an end to the punishments of condemned men and devils.

They condemn also others who are now spreading certain Jewish* opinions, that before the resurrection of the dead the godly shall take possession of the kingdom of the world, the ungodly being everywhere suppressed." - Augsburg Confession, Article XVII

*That is, the belief in a militarily-minded messianic movement that results in the overthrowing of the kingdoms and the establishment of a kind of messianic golden age.

-CryptoLutheran

Don't even need to go to a confession or creed of a denomination. It's just the bible
2 Thessalonians 2

We will not bring righteousness by our means. It won't happen, it cannot happen.

GreekOrthodox · Feb 13, 2020

Wait, what happens when Catholic chimes in that they already have the Pope?

createdtoworship · Feb 13, 2020

Dave L said:
His kingdom is spiritual and non violent. It's here now. Has been since he began teaching it in the gospel.

this is a non literal view of scripture which I would disagree with. If one verse can be spiritualized, then salvation, the trinity, heaven, hell can all be spiritualized.

createdtoworship · Feb 13, 2020

Resha Caner said:
Theocracy doesn't do that. That's what evangelism is for. Theocracy punishes people for breaching religious laws. The Apostles didn't say, "OK, Jesus has ascended so our first step is to seize control of Rome."

When Peter tried that, he got this Matthew 26:51-54. Jesus repeated the same lesson to Pilate.

If you want to show people Christ, then do that. Talk to them. Be an example for them. Don't threaten to put them in jail or a death camp because they're doing something you don't like.

there is a confusion here, see the law of grace is really only for the dispensation of grace, which is the church age, the gap between the 69th and 70th week of daniels prophecy. In the millenium we will be characterized by the law of Christ, the beatitudes and other laws found in the Bible, the ten commandments. Because of the reversion from grace to law, many will rebel and fight Christ in armeggedon.

createdtoworship · Feb 13, 2020

Quartermaine said:
you have already done a fine job of that.

But you ignored my question. I will not subject my self or my family to your tyrannical government. Neither will hundreds of millions of others. So what happens to us?

again saying something is tyranny without proving so is not really useful to anyone. Again in the millenium we will have a reversion from Grace to law, and gentiles in blessing in the millenium will buck at the Christ's new reign and will call it tyranny as well.

Lets vote for the Bible to be our form of government- #vote for God

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