Non-believers prevail in suit against FL county that forbade secular invocations

Hazelelponi said:

It's really not that difficult to sit there respectfully... I've been the only Muslim in town before and never felt offended, I have no earthly idea the problem atheists have with having respect for others when your the odd man out.

Click to expand...

Just curious - since you have identified as "Baptist", how can you have been the only Muslim anywhere?

dzheremi said:

Why are you using my posts as an excuse to rant about Christianity

Click to expand...

The original post in this thread is all about how Christians get to do invocation but Atheists don't.

dzheremi said:

All I've said in this thread is that it's good that everyone can participate if they want to

Click to expand...

No, you have been repeatedly saying that it is good how it is.
How it is, is that the Christains can and the Atheists can't.
That's what this thread is about.

Hazelelponi said:

In most communities that 98% of the population!

That not really an issue, it's representative of the majority..

If the minority doesn't believe in religion or have religious centers when there is no law to prevent them from it, then it's no fault of the majority.

There's a difference between setting up a religious government and saying prayer publicly.

It's really not that difficult to sit there respectfully... I've been the only Muslim in town before and never felt offended, I have no earthly idea the problem atheists have with having respect for others when your the odd man out.

Click to expand...

oh good grief...!

You aren’t 98%...it’s more like 70% on average.

And what you describe is the tyranny of the majority. The measure of the fairness and tolerance of any community, is the degree to which minorities are included....not how well the majority is allowed complete dominance...

stevil said:

If the Christian god really exists, do you really think you can spout some magic words and summon him/her?

If the proceedings are for business or public stuff why do you need to get your religion involved at all?
Leave that stuff for your home and for church no need to force it onto others in the public arena. When you have a captive audience of a variety of beliefs and non beliefs, why force your belief on them?



Atheists can appeal to whatever they want. I think a moment of silence to acknowledge that there is no god will be good for everyone to think about. It might even open some people's eyes, especially the kids. This is a good thing.
But then again, there are so many beliefs, so many gods, how long will it take to get through an invocation for them all?


If your church group want to stand on a street corner and pray out loud, that's fine. If your family want to stand in a park and pray outloud that is fine. Even if your family are in a restaurant at their own table and want to pray that is fine too. But when you have a "captive" audience of a variety of beliefs, why do you have to put them through the tedium of standing their watching you pray to your imaginary god/s?

Click to expand...

1 Timothy 2:1

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people-- for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.

DaisyDay said:

Just curious - since you have identified as "Baptist", how can you have been the only Muslim anywhere?

Click to expand...

I used to be a Muslim, who has since come to Christ. I've been saved just over 5 years now.

I'm reformed Baptist now..

Christ saves many people, not just those born Christian.

Allandavid said:

oh good grief...!

You aren’t 98%...it’s more like 70% on average.

And what you describe is the tyranny of the majority. The measure of the fairness and tolerance of any community, is the degree to which minorities are included....not how well the majority is allowed complete dominance...

Click to expand...

How is tyrannical to spend a few minutes before the start of a meeting to ask for God to guide the meeting so that good decisions are made?

I think you're misunderstanding what tyranny even is if that's your idea of tyrannical.

tyranny- cruel and oppressive government or rule.

Prayer is made in the hopes that doesn't happen in the ensuing meetings... not in order to oppress.

Hazelelponi said:

How is tyrannical to spend a few minutes before the start of a meeting to ask for God to guide the meeting so that good decisions are made?

I think you're misunderstanding what tyranny even is if that's your idea of tyrannical.

tyranny- cruel and oppressive government or rule.

Prayer is made in the hopes that doesn't happen in the ensuing meetings... not in order to oppress.

Click to expand...

If you want to pray for a meeting, why can’t you just do it on your own time? Does it make any difference if you pray for the meeting by yourself in the bathroom?

lasthero said:

If you want to pray for a meeting, why can’t you just do it on your own time? Does it make any difference if you pray for the meeting by yourself in the bathroom?

Click to expand...

Where two or three are gathered in My Name, there I am in the midst of them.. hence an invocation.

Our money says "in God we trust". We are a secular nation only so far as to holding the sincere belief that faith and government cannot be joined together to impose itself over the masses (i.e. the belief that the harlot of Babylon is the joining of religion / the apostate faithful and government to be the strong arm of their religion) - however that doesn't mean we aren't a country of faithful people who trust in God, in largest part.

A sincere invoking of God to guide us as a nation so that we do what is right is not tyrannical, nor does it impose anything unless you believe that God exists, that He hears His people and you simply don't want His guidance in the proceedings.

Then I can see those who sincerely hate God might take offense, otherwise, I don't see any issues that should arise.

Hazelelponi said:

Where two or three are gathered in My Name, there I am in the midst of them.. hence an invocation.

Click to expand...

So prayers made by yourself don’t count?

Also, isn’t God omnipresent? Isn’t he always ‘in the midst of you’?

Our money says "in God we trust"

Click to expand...

That wasn’t always the case. Not that it matters much, either way.

A sincere invoking of God to guide us as a nation so that we do what is right is not tyrannical, nor does it impose anything unless His people and you simply don't want His guidance in the proceedings.

Click to expand...

I don’t understand why that ‘invoking’ simply must be done in public while everyone else sits about and waits for you to finish. I was under the impression that prayer worked fine no matter how many people did or where it was done, but no, you make it seems as if it MUST be done in public where everyone can see it and be together. The people who want to do it can’t get together before the meeting, they can’t do it separately, they can’t do it by themselves on their own time. Like prayer has some kind of weird force multiplier that makes God more likely to respond to it if there’s more people doing it in the same area.

Then I can see those who sincerely hate God might take offense, otherwise, I don't see any issues that should arise.

Click to expand...

I don’t hate God, I just don’t think he exists, and I’d rather you not use my hard earned money to invoke him.

lasthero said:

I don’t hate God, I just don’t think he exists, and I’d rather you not use my hard earned money to invoke him.

Click to expand...

Isn't it awesome that our politicians aren't paid by the hour then?

Hazelelponi said:

Where two or three are gathered in My Name, there I am in the midst of them.. hence an invocation.

Our money says "in God we trust". We are a secular nation only so far as to holding the sincere belief that faith and government cannot be joined together to impose itself over the masses (i.e. the belief that the harlot of Babylon is the joining of religion / the apostate faithful and government to be the strong arm of their religion) - however that doesn't mean we aren't a country of faithful people who trust in God, in largest part.

A sincere invoking of God to guide us as a nation so that we do what is right is not tyrannical, nor does it impose anything unless you believe that God exists, that He hears His people and you simply don't want His guidance in the proceedings.

Then I can see those who sincerely hate God might take offense, otherwise, I don't see any issues that should arise.

Click to expand...

People who love God might also take offense. The insistence on this kind of public prayer generally comes from a particular segment of Christianity which sees itself as the unofficial "American" religion to the exclusion of other religious views and even other forms of Christianity. It becomes nothing but an expression of dominance and virtue signalling.

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites
are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and
in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.
Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. --Matt 6:5

stevil said:

The original post in this thread is all about how Christians get to do invocation but Atheists don't.

Click to expand...

No, the original post in this thread is about how non-believers prevailed in their suit against the county because the county was breaking the law. Because you can't actually exclude non-theists from participating in this. That's what I think is good about how things are. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

No, you have been repeatedly saying that it is good how it is.
How it is, is that the Christains can and the Atheists can't.
That's what this thread is about.

Click to expand...

Again, no. Please re-read the OP.

Speedwell said:

People who love God might also take offense. The insistence on this kind of public prayer gener
ally comes from a particular segment of Christianity which sees itself as the unofficial "American" religion to the exclusion of other religious views and even other forms of Christianity. It becomes nothing but an expression of dominance and virtue signalling.

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites
are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and
in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.
Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. --Matt 6:5

Click to expand...

I've never seen anything but various religious leaders in a given area taking turns as to who gives the invocation..

Hazelelponi said:

I've never seen anything but various religious leaders in a given area taking turns as to who gives the invocation..

Click to expand...

As selected by...

But I remind you of the famous Texas football game prayer case, Santa Fe School District v. Doe, in which the district was sued by group of non-Evangelical Christian parents over public prayers at football games. Very early on they offered the school district a compromise in which the prayers would by led in rotation by members of the various religious groups besides Evangelicals represented in the student body (primarily Catholics and Mormons). The school district turned them down flat. It was either to be Evangelical prayer or nothing; they got nothing and then whined about activist courts taking God out of the schools. It sounds to me like much the same thing was going on in Brevard county. The largely Evangelical commissioners condescended to let members of other religions give the invocation once in a while but balked at atheists.



Blocking Atheists from Giving Invocations Will Cost Brevard County (FL) $490,000

I'm no atheist, but I don't even see how this is debatable. Public manifestation of prayer is pushed by Evangelicals, who often only have their own version of Christianity in mind when they talk about "bringing God back into ____", or whine about others taking Him out. Yes, as I already wrote, one Coptic Orthodox priest gave one invocation once. So even my Church is in the mix, even though we're only about 500,000-1,000,000 in the USA (numbers vary pretty widely depending on who's counting). I think that's pretty neat, and I don't think any Coptic person would be expecting equal time or anything to begin with (it's an honor to be allowed at all; consider where the Coptic people come from, and how much more difficult it can be there!), but this does not obscure the fact that this is a largely Protestant phenomenon. That doesn't make it 'bad' or anything, but it is still a fact. I'd personally be for having no prayers (or maybe those who want to pray can do it before the meeting as a separate group? I don't know) -- precisely because I already know that the public invocation is mostly about Protestants and their theology, and I am not a Protestant -- but something tells me that the group which takes up 90%+ of the second pie chart would not like that at all. (Copts already pray before everything anyway, so just as long as nobody was trying to stop us from doing that on our own whether in public or in private, I don't see what the problem is; I doubt any atheist cares if I pray on my own time before meals, during a break at work, etc.)

Hazelelponi said:

How is tyrannical to spend a few minutes before the start of a meeting to ask for God to guide the meeting so that good decisions are made?

Click to expand...

Its a show of power, of dominance when you insist on have your Christian prayer and block all others from doing their "prayer/invocation/welcome".
Your essentially saying, it is us who are the majority, we will always get exactly what we want and you minorities better just sit there quiet.

Hazelelponi said:

Isn't it awesome that our politicians aren't paid by the hour then?

Click to expand...

I notice you just sort of ignored my entire post, there.

Question - why does the prayer have to take place with a public invocation? Why couldn't the members who want to pray either do so separately on their own time, or come together before the meeting on their own time? Why does the focus seem to be on doing it in this specific way, when there are numerous ways for them to pray that no one would complain about?

stevil said:

Its a show of power, of dominance when you insist on have your Christian prayer and block all others from doing their "prayer/invocation/welcome".
Your essentially saying, it is us who are the majority, we will always get exactly what we want and you minorities better just sit there quiet.

Click to expand...

It's not a show of power to pray...

Apparently you know nothing at all about prayer.

lasthero said:

I notice you just sort of ignored my entire post, there.

Question - why does the prayer have to take place with a public invocation? Why couldn't the members who want to pray either do so separately on their own time, or come together before the meeting on their own time? Why does the focus seem to be on doing it in this specific way, when there are numerous ways for them to pray that no one would complain about?

Click to expand...

Because this has been done since day 1 of our nation's existence. .

It's a tradition that's a good and positive thing..

Hazelelponi said:

It's not a show of power to pray...

Apparently you know nothing at all about prayer.

Click to expand...

It is when only one group is allowed too before a government meeting.